The Goon Thread

[Raziel]

Net spend over five years has us spending only a 100m less and they've won 2 FA cups in that time (5 in the last decade) in addition to finishing 2nd last season and have continued that kind of form this season. To have the remotest chance of competing against City you have to spend but also spend well. Sure you're entitled to the opinion of not liking them or the manager, we share that opinion but league standings + trophies are not opinion based. They're further on in their project than we are because of unsuitable managerial appointments lurching from one style to another in the hole of quick fixes. The patience shown after two 8th place finishes has paid off for them lot and we will likely have to show the same kind of patience until we can become vaguely competitive unless we just want to cry misfortune when one or two injuries in key places derail what makes the team function.

Not sure I fully get the Wenger point, Ferguson was hugely successful and you could argue that it's been tougher on the managers that have followed because of that success, just because a club has done well it doesn't make it easy to sustain that success. It can work both ways depending on the state of the squad and manner of the departure of the previous manager..

The Wenger point is absolutely the same as SAF

Both clubs had a dominant position in English football for 25 or so years, and the massive (exponential) advantage it gave them financially, both clubs tinkled that away (terrible mismanagement), and either of them winning a couple of domestic trophies in relation to that position is not success, and framing it that way is just PR.

I get sustaining success is hard, but when you have been dominant for two decades, where you challenged for everything, every year, to go from that to hoping to qualify for CL and hoping for an occasional trophy is failure. Sustaining that position, and/or regaining that position with a reasonable timeframe (2-3 years?) should have been a lot easier than Spurs coming from mid table to same point while having to build the infrastructure and revenue stream needed to support without having the decades of high income in the bank.

 

[spurspinter1]

The Wenger point is absolutely the same as SAF

Both clubs had a dominant position in English football for 25 or so years, and the massive (exponential) advantage it gave them financially, both clubs tinkled that away (terrible mismanagement), and either of them winning a couple of domestic trophies in relation to that position is not success, and framing it that way is just PR.

I get sustaining success is hard, but when you have been dominant for two decades, where you challenged for everything, every year, to go from that to hoping to qualify for CL and hoping for an occasional trophy is failure. Sustaining that position, and/or regaining that position with a reasonable timeframe (2-3 years?) should have been a lot easier than Spurs coming from mid table to same point while having to build the infrastructure and revenue stream needed to support without having the decades of high income in the bank.

5 FA cups in ten years isn't "a couple of domestic trophies", and making out that winning stuff is success isn't PR, it's literally what success means. I despise Ben Shapiro but I will steal a quote, facts don't care about your feelings and if you don't want to look the facts in the eyes then fair enough. What they're doing currently isn't meaningless because they were better under Wenger if that's what you're attempting to get at.

As I said, it works both ways in terms of a sustainable period of success, sometimes it weighs the clubs down and other times it feeds it. Nobody stays the king forever. There's a natural ebb and flow of teams rising and falling, especially in the Premier League where new challengers appear like how Chelsea did or Saudi Sportswashing Machine are attempting to do at the minute.

Whilst I don't talk a lot of gooners or frequent any forums, I'd imagine that they're fairly content with how they're doing, and won't be devastated about salty Spurs fans making out that their team is a mess, the squad is unbalanced, media darlings wah wah wah etc

I see your point about our infrastructure and how success can be relative, in that sense we have been doing the right thing by playing the long game because we have had to. But as I said the lurching in different directions play style / manager wise hasn't helped nor did the timing of COVID when the new stadium came around but that's obviously a whole different topic. The key is not panicking about the current form and even potentially the league finish as long as the performances are there and we can provide what Ange needs, which is what Arsenal did to ensure they're currently the closest to challenging City (Liverpool are close to it as well I suppose).

 

[Raziel]

5 FA cups in ten years isn't "a couple of domestic trophies", and making out that winning stuff is success isn't PR, it's literally what success means. I despise Ben Shapiro but I will steal a quote, facts don't care about your feelings and if you don't want to look the facts in the eyes then fair enough. What they're doing currently isn't meaningless because they were better under Wenger if that's what you're attempting to get at.

As I said, it works both ways in terms of a sustainable period of success, sometimes it weighs the clubs down and other times it feeds it. Nobody stays the king forever. There's a natural ebb and flow of teams rising and falling, especially in the Premier League where new challengers appear like how Chelsea did or Saudi Sportswashing Machine are attempting to do at the minute.

Whilst I don't talk a lot of gooners or frequent any forums, I'd imagine that they're fairly content with how they're doing, and won't be devastated about salty Spurs fans making out that their team is a mess, the squad is unbalanced, media darlings wah wah wah etc

I see your point about our infrastructure and how success can be relative, in that sense we have been doing the right thing by playing the long game because we have had to. But as I said the lurching in different directions play style / manager wise hasn't helped nor did the timing of COVID when the new stadium came around but that's obviously a whole different topic. The key is not panicking about the current form and even potentially the league finish as long as the performances are there and we can provide what Ange needs, which is what Arsenal did to ensure they're currently the closest to challenging City (Liverpool are close to it as well I suppose).

We can all cherry pick mate, 23 years in a row in CL -> 6 years in a row out of CL is not improving, what are those 5 cups in terms of the previous 20 years? it's not meaningless (and Ben Shapiro is a clam who wouldn't know a fact if it bit him on the ass), but it is context, they are still rebuilding to a position they surrendered through their own mismanagement, and right now Arteta's era is still work in progress, this is legitimately their first CL run in 7 years (Klopp/Liverpool is much more established and confirmed as real deal, and I say that despising them as well).

My point ultimately is a top level club spent a lot of money, pays very high wages and gave a manager a long time, and their results are showing but it doesn't make it some amazing Cinderella story (and couldn't give a fudge what scum fans think), and similar to ETH (who matched Arteta basically in one season), not someone I see as an elite manager.

 

[spurspinter1]

We can all cherry pick mate, 23 years in a row in CL -> 6 years in a row out of CL is not improving, what are those 5 cups in terms of the previous 20 years? it's not meaningless (and Ben Shapiro is a clam who wouldn't know a fact if it bit him on the ass), but it is context, they are still rebuilding to a position they surrendered through their own mismanagement, and right now Arteta's era is still work in progress, this is legitimately their first CL run in 7 years (Klopp/Liverpool is much more established and confirmed as real deal, and I say that despising them as well).

My point ultimately is a top level club spent a lot of money, pays very high wages and gave a manager a long time, and their results are showing but it doesn't make it some amazing Cinderella story (and couldn't give a fudge what scum fans think), and similar to ETH (who matched Arteta basically in one season), not someone I see as an elite manager.

I'm not really sure where this is going conversationally or what points you're trying to make, pointing out they've won in recent times is cherry picking or PR spin, okay........?

They're doing well but have done better in the past, I I can't dance with that, no one is doing as well due to City being as good as they have been (whether by nefarious means or not). Nobody is saying they're a Cinderella story, it's not done kind of footballing miracle, they've just done stuff well in terms of sticking with a manager and allowing him to shape the squad. Arteta's era is still a work in progress? Well yeah obviously because it's literally still happening, I'm not trying to be facetious but I don't see what you're trying to say nor understand the line of questioning regarding what those fa cups are in a 20 year time period. I'm happy to park this one here, you think the team is unbalanced and the manager's overrated and nothing I say or the actual evidence of how they're doing is going to change that.

 

[markysimmo]

From Sky, they forgot to mention all the luck they have and a rapist still in the match day squad too

In the words of Gary Neville, we are now approaching "the winter slog - where you get rid of the pretenders".

This is the period where Arsenal may just win the Premier League title for which they can be backed at 100/30 with Sky Bet. Mikel Arteta has developed a team built for the winter slog

Full of grit. Full of defensive solidity.

And they just could be about to put a lengthy unbeaten run together. Wolves arrive with Arsenal unbeaten in their last 10 home games, winning eight and scoring 16 goals in their last four

Suspensions to key midfield duo Joao Gomes and Mario Lemina, along with the continued absence of Pedro Neto should make this a potentially comfortable afternoon for Arsenal

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

From Sky, they forgot to mention all the luck they have and a rapist still in the match day squad too

In the words of Gary Neville, we are now approaching "the winter slog - where you get rid of the pretenders".

This is the period where Arsenal may just win the Premier League title for which they can be backed at 100/30 with Sky Bet. Mikel Arteta has developed a team built for the winter slog

Full of grit. Full of defensive solidity.

And they just could be about to put a lengthy unbeaten run together. Wolves arrive with Arsenal unbeaten in their last 10 home games, winning eight and scoring 16 goals in their last four

Suspensions to key midfield duo Joao Gomes and Mario Lemina, along with the continued absence of Pedro Neto should make this a potentially comfortable afternoon for Arsenal

I can see another statement win coming…

 

[markysimmo]

I can see another statement win coming…

Against a weakened Wolves team

 

[stratnumberone]

I can see another statement win coming…

Yes indeed. They’ve had a lot of statement wins this season. Even one of their statement draws was a statement win. And that was in a friendly. Must’ve been statement friendly.

 

[markysimmo]

It's clear the media are still fawning over them, it's like the biggest ever choke in footballing history never happened

 

[Lemonade Money]

It's clear the media are still fawning over them, it's like the biggest ever choke in footballing history never happened

Again.

 

[glasgowspur]

5 FA cups in ten years isn't "a couple of domestic trophies", and making out that winning stuff is success isn't PR, it's literally what success means. I despise Ben Shapiro but I will steal a quote, facts don't care about your feelings and if you don't want to look the facts in the eyes then fair enough. What they're doing currently isn't meaningless because they were better under Wenger if that's what you're attempting to get at.

As I said, it works both ways in terms of a sustainable period of success, sometimes it weighs the clubs down and other times it feeds it. Nobody stays the king forever. There's a natural ebb and flow of teams rising and falling, especially in the Premier League where new challengers appear like how Chelsea did or Saudi Sportswashing Machine are attempting to do at the minute.

Whilst I don't talk a lot of gooners or frequent any forums, I'd imagine that they're fairly content with how they're doing, and won't be devastated about salty Spurs fans making out that their team is a mess, the squad is unbalanced, media darlings wah wah wah etc

I see your point about our infrastructure and how success can be relative, in that sense we have been doing the right thing by playing the long game because we have had to. But as I said the lurching in different directions play style / manager wise hasn't helped nor did the timing of COVID when the new stadium came around but that's obviously a whole different topic. The key is not panicking about the current form and even potentially the league finish as long as the performances are there and we can provide what Ange needs, which is what Arsenal did to ensure they're currently the closest to challenging City (Liverpool are close to it as well I suppose).

As I've stated elsewhere success is relative, it would be interesting to see if our support considered five f a cups in 10 years success for us.
Sadly I think many wouldn't.

 

[spurspinter1]

As I've stated elsewhere success is relative, it would be interesting to see if our support considered five f a cups in 10 years success for us.
Sadly I think many wouldn't.

Hopefully we'll find out one day, starting the run this season!

I think it's to do with what is often weak banter that we Spurs fans are subjected to or an oversimplified notion that the only thing that matters is winning, that some then try to make out that it doesn't mean anything to win something and go too far the other way as a defense mechanism. It is a weary old debate and based on ifs rather than what's actually happening.

I'm not sure anyone wouldn't consider that a success for us, but by doing so then we'd have to acknowledge Arsenal's achievement. Football's an odd place where otherwise rational adults bend over backwards to not praise any other clubs especially ones situated nearby..

 

[stratnumberone]

Hopefully we'll find out one day, starting the run this season!

I think it's to do with what is often weak banter that we Spurs fans are subjected to or an oversimplified notion that the only thing that matters is winning, that some then try to make out that it doesn't mean anything to win something and go too far the other way as a defense mechanism. It is a weary old debate and based on ifs rather than what's actually happening.

I'm not sure anyone wouldn't consider that a success for us, but by doing so then we'd have to acknowledge Arsenal's achievement. Football's an odd place where otherwise rational adults bend over backwards to not praise any other clubs especially ones situated nearby..

I can only speak for myself but I’d consider 5 FA Cups in 10 years a big success for our club. Frankly, I’d consider 2 FA Cups in 10 years a success. We haven’t won any at all in over 30 years…

We are also living in an era in which - thanks primarily to two clubs operating with a cheat mode engaged - it has never been harder to win anything at all. Let’s face it, even the League Cup is tough because someone has to get past City. I know that we had the ‘freak’ Leicester year, but beyond that we are perilously close to having a situation that is almost identical to many of the European leagues that we pour scorn upon, in which only one side will realistically win it. This also makes the constant criticism of Spurs’ failure to win anything even more unbearable because although it’s true that Spurs doesn’t win anything, nor does anyone else. Almost!

 

[tommysvr]

Would love to see them lose Garbiel, Saliba, Zinchenko and Odegaard in one game and see how they cope.

 

[tommysvr]

Of the 7 clubs I would imagine Brighton/Spurs are two because of Bissouma's "baseless" allegation.

The Premier League boss... No idea but on 12th June 2023 it is on record that David Sullivan needed to visit Loughton police station under caution, and in 2008 had to do the same while being co-owner of Birmingham City.

However, the idea that and I quote the article "for footballers who become embroiled in criminal allegations to be suspended from playing until it has been fully investigated." is a legal and human rights nightmare.

I work in the public sector and false allegations happen all the time. People create false allegations to help get extra support, to punitively stop their partner seeing the children, and for a financial payout from CICA.

I would quite like Declan Rice to stop playing for Arsenal, er go I send in Miss V. Pretty to dance with him at X nightclub and hey presto, the next day accuse him of sexual assault, and dear Declan is suspended until it is thoroughly investigated.

Innocent until proven guilty is there for a reason.

Rugby League in Australia (a sport with many sexual predators) has a similar thing in place: https://www.nrl.com/news/2019/02/28/arl-commission-to-announce-new-policy-for-player-misbehaviour/

 

[paxtonwolf]

I can only speak for myself but I’d consider 5 FA Cups in 10 years a big success for our club. Frankly, I’d consider 2 FA Cups in 10 years a success. We haven’t won any at all in over 30 years…

We are also living in an era in which - thanks primarily to two clubs operating with a cheat mode engaged - it has never been harder to win anything at all. Let’s face it, even the League Cup is tough because someone has to get past City. I know that we had the ‘freak’ Leicester year, but beyond that we are perilously close to having a situation that is almost identical to many of the European leagues that we pour scorn upon, in which only one side will realistically win it. This also makes the constant criticism of Spurs’ failure to win anything even more unbearable because although it’s true that Spurs doesn’t win anything, nor does anyone else. Almost!

Very true. What annoys me is its always us that gets picked on for not winning things. I dont think Saudi Sportswashing Machine have won a trophy for over 50 years and that was the Fairs Cup (I am discounting the InterToto Cup). Yet you would hardly know, that stat is rarley mentioned, but Spurs with no cup in 15 years is brought up every month of the season

 

[Lemonade Money]

Very true. What annoys me is its always us that gets picked on for not winning things. I dont think Saudi Sportswashing Machine have won a trophy for over 50 years and that was the Fairs Cup (I am discounting the InterToto Cup). Yet you would hardly know, that stat is rarley mentioned, but Spurs with no cup in 15 years is brought up every month of the season

Aston Villa 1996 since last trophy.
Everton 1995 since last trophy.

 

[markysimmo]

Another statement win for them tonight I reckon

 

[Lemonade Money]

Another statement win for them tonight I reckon

Don't understand the scheduling, they know they've got kindergarten in the morning.

 

[El Guepardo]

Another statement win for them tonight I reckon

Very late win and a lot closer match than many had expected. Shows that they grind the results out and don’t stop fighting which is concerning. Hoped that they would drop points so that we could close the gap to 4 points on Thursday night.