The Goon Thread

[spurspinter1]

I'm delighted Havertz scored, means the idiot will keep playing him (he's brick) and keep fudging up balance of side to make it work.

If a fudged up balance team can be top of the league and get through to the CL knockouts comfortably it can't be that unbalanced can it? Or are they just incredibly lucky and of course on the other side of things we're just very unlucky....That said, Havertz is on paper still a very strange signing, he doesn't put down crazy G/A involvements but the guy does pop up with important ones which you can't put a price on.

The patience they've shown to Arteta is what we'll need to display to Ange but ideally with the same kind of backing that the Spaniard has received and then we'll go places. Our man is a lot more likable though, that's a given. The fallout from the VAR "controversy" against Saudi Sportswashing Machine including the club statement shenanigans still don't seem real, it doesn't mean anything but they definitely made themselves look like tits with that unified stance of idiocy.

 

[stratnumberone]

Premier League teams are playing footballers facing abuse claims https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67508310

This seemed as a good as anywhere to put this link (if the link works…).

 

[glasgowspur]

If a fudged up balance team can be top of the league and get through to the CL knockouts comfortably it can't be that unbalanced can it? Or are they just incredibly lucky and of course on the other side of things we're just very unlucky....That said, Havertz is on paper still a very strange signing, he doesn't put down crazy G/A involvements but the guy does pop up with important ones which you can't put a price on.

The patience they've shown to Arteta is what we'll need to display to Ange but ideally with the same kind of backing that the Spaniard has received and then we'll go places. Our man is a lot more likable though, that's a given. The fallout from the VAR "controversy" against Saudi Sportswashing Machine including the club statement shenanigans still don't seem real, it doesn't mean anything but they definitely made themselves look like tits with that unified stance of idiocy.

The couple of games I've seen of arsenal they have been lucky, against utd and city they looked scared to attack and would have quite happy with a draw in either.
Late goals masked rather insipid displays.
Can't argue with their league positions or results, but I don't see the great all conquering style of football that others see.

 

[Ron Burgess]

Premier League teams are playing footballers facing abuse claims https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-67508310

This seemed as a good as anywhere to put this link (if the link works…).

Of the 7 clubs I would imagine Brighton/Spurs are two because of Bissouma's "baseless" allegation.

The Premier League boss... No idea but on 12th June 2023 it is on record that David Sullivan needed to visit Loughton police station under caution, and in 2008 had to do the same while being co-owner of Birmingham City.

However, the idea that and I quote the article "for footballers who become embroiled in criminal allegations to be suspended from playing until it has been fully investigated." is a legal and human rights nightmare.

I work in the public sector and false allegations happen all the time. People create false allegations to help get extra support, to punitively stop their partner seeing the children, and for a financial payout from CICA.

I would quite like Declan Rice to stop playing for Arsenal, er go I send in Miss V. Pretty to dance with him at X nightclub and hey presto, the next day accuse him of sexual assault, and dear Declan is suspended until it is thoroughly investigated.

Innocent until proven guilty is there for a reason.

 

[Raziel]

If a fudged up balance team can be top of the league and get through to the CL knockouts comfortably it can't be that unbalanced can it? Or are they just incredibly lucky and of course on the other side of things we're just very unlucky....That said, Havertz is on paper still a very strange signing, he doesn't put down crazy G/A involvements but the guy does pop up with important ones which you can't put a price on.

The patience they've shown to Arteta is what we'll need to display to Ange but ideally with the same kind of backing that the Spaniard has received and then we'll go places. Our man is a lot more likable though, that's a given. The fallout from the VAR "controversy" against Saudi Sportswashing Machine including the club statement shenanigans still don't seem real, it doesn't mean anything but they definitely made themselves look like tits with that unified stance of idiocy.

They played better last year, data wise and anecdotally that is backed up (across most stats)

Arteta fudged that up by trying to prove he's smart, 1. with the idiotic keeper situation, so instead of one decent keeper in form, he has two shaky keepers under pressure. 2. unbalanced the team, they had a very good midfield, adding Rice to that made sense, adding Havertz to it doesn't. This is compounded by the fact that the money they committed to Raya & Havertz would have got them a decent striker that would have improved the team significantly.

Arsenal are just a team that has spent a brick load of money, and given a system manager a long run (result is, they are very well drilled, know how to play). If you watch them play, it's circa 2017 version of Pep with a bricker total squad. I still think the appointment of Arteta is a mistake for them, the two 8th places were time & revenue lost. I don't see any world where he moves on to a bigger club (as context, if Ange got us a trophy and 2nd place in PL, I'd see clubs coming for him)

Re VAR, clubs have a culture, we know Liverpool's, Arsenal has always been to be whinners and cheaters (all the way back)

 

[Gutter Boy]

Of the 7 clubs I would imagine Brighton/Spurs are two because of Bissouma's "baseless" allegation.

The Premier League boss... No idea but on 12th June 2023 it is on record that David Sullivan needed to visit Loughton police station under caution, and in 2008 had to do the same while being co-owner of Birmingham City.

However, the idea that and I quote the article "for footballers who become embroiled in criminal allegations to be suspended from playing until it has been fully investigated." is a legal and human rights nightmare.

I work in the public sector and false allegations happen all the time. People create false allegations to help get extra support, to punitively stop their partner seeing the children, and for a financial payout from CICA.

I would quite like Declan Rice to stop playing for Arsenal, er go I send in Miss V. Pretty to dance with him at X nightclub and hey presto, the next day accuse him of sexual assault, and dear Declan is suspended until it is thoroughly investigated.

Innocent until proven guilty is there for a reason.

In any other business in the world they'd be suspended (on full pay). I think you can separate off the spurious ones pretty quickly.

 

[DeanoAustin]

In any other business in the world they'd be suspended (on full pay). I think you can separate off the spurious ones pretty quickly.

Think that's what the DPP and a court is for. Not sure anyone else is in a position to separate the spurious ones from the serious allegations.

This is a horrible one. If players get suspended for being under suspicion of abuse, it makes their lives very, very difficult and it is open to all sorts of abuse. It's also very unpalatable and a bad look to have lads playing while they're possibly guilty of a disgusting crime.

However, the cornerstone of the justice system is "innocent until proven guilty". There is no perfect answer here but I'd err on the side of that principle.

 

[Dicko]

Isn't Mendy taking City to court for all the millions in lost wages he missed out on over the last two years since City suspended him without pay. He is obviously of a scumbag but wasn't found guilty so does he have a right to those wages now?

 

[Ron Burgess]

In any other business in the world they'd be suspended (on full pay). I think you can separate off the spurious ones pretty quickly.

In reality the inverse is true. In businesses and professions all around the world people are going to work with pending cases all the time.

Not sure how you separate the spurious ones so quickly. Bissouma's was spurious, and did a lot of damage.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Think that's what the DPP and a court is for. Not sure anyone else is in a position to separate the spurious ones from the serious allegations.

This is a horrible one. If players get suspended for being under suspicion of abuse, it makes their lives very, very difficult and it is open to all sorts of abuse. It's also very unpalatable and a bad look to have lads playing while they're possibly guilty of a disgusting crime.

However, the cornerstone of the justice system is "innocent until proven guilty". There is no perfect answer here but I'd err on the side of that principle.

We're just sacking someone at work because he's been accused of fiddling with (multiple) kids at cadet camp, even though it's not going to court for 3 years. Reputational damage is plenty enough grounds.

 

[DeanoAustin]

We're just sacking someone at work because he's been accused of fiddling with (multiple) kids at cadet camp, even though it's not going to court for 3 years. Reputational damage is plenty enough grounds.

If it turns out he's innocent, you may be going to court yourselves.

It's a very dangerous precedent to start firing people who aren't proven guilty.

 

[Gutter Boy]

If it turns out he's innocent, you may be going to court yourselves.

It's a very dangerous precedent to start firing people who aren't proven guilty.

Safeguarding trumps it though, if your passive decision means keeping them around vulnerable people.

 

[Ron Burgess]

We're just sacking someone at work because he's been accused of fiddling with (multiple) kids at cadet camp, even though it's not going to court for 3 years. Reputational damage is plenty enough grounds.

I am pleased to hear it and children are protected (I think it was under the Equality Act), so there are reasons to suspend or dismiss someone suspected in those circumstances, much like if it were elderly or vulnerable adults.

That's not the same as any other business though, and I know at least one individual that has had a pending case and continued to work in their role (that was not involved with vulnerable people).

 

[DeanoAustin]

Safeguarding trumps it though, if your passive decision means keeping them around vulnerable people.

I'm no expert in the area but I would have thought suspension would be the correct/fairest course of action? Of course, if that person is still being paid, that's not fair on the employer.

 

[Ron Burgess]

I'm no expert in the area but I would have thought suspension would be the correct/fairest course of action? Of course, if that person is still being paid, that's not fair on the employer.

Lucy Letby is a good example that comes to mind, but there are lots.

She was suspected and accused in writing by several consultant paediatricians, and was moved to an administrative role in the same hospital. She stayed there as the police started investigating. Between her arrests Letby did get suspended on full pay, before then being sacked when charged with the crimes.

Gutter boy's claim that in all other walks of life / business someone gets dismissed or immediately suspended is just not true.

In his own employer that is sacking someone, that sounds like multiple allegations how long between the first and last I wonder? Did they stay in post? Hmmm.

Nevertheless it is highly likely to have some validity and keeping them in post could lead to harm, so fair enough. Under the circumstances it should be in the contract that for safeguarding reasons if there is cause for concern, someone has to step down.

 

[DeanoAustin]

Lucy Letby is a good example that comes to mind, but there are lots.

She was suspected and accused in writing by several consultant paediatricians, and was moved to an administrative role in the same hospital. She stayed there as the police started investigating. Between her arrests Letby did get suspended on full pay, before then being sacked when charged with the crimes.

Gutter boy's claim that in all other walks of life / business someone gets dismissed or immediately suspended is just not true.

In his own employer that is sacking someone, that sounds like multiple allegations how long between the first and last I wonder? Did they stay in post? Hmmm.

Nevertheless it is highly likely to have some validity and keeping them in post could lead to harm, so fair enough. Under the circumstances it should be in the contract that for safeguarding reasons if there is cause for concern, someone has to step down.

It is a messy one. False accusations against an innocent person could see them lose their job, their livelihood and their reputation if they have to stand down.

Safeguarding, particularly of vulnerable people has got to be the number 1 priority - 100%. However, I also believe that reputations should be preserved until guilt is proven. Is there a way to meet those two goals?

 

[Ron Burgess]

It is a messy one. False accusations against an innocent person could see them lose their job, their livelihood and their reputation if they have to stand down.

Safeguarding, particularly of vulnerable people has got to be the number 1 priority - 100%. However, I also believe that reputations should be preserved until guilt is proven. Is there a way to meet those two goals?

I think contracting around it because of the vulnerable nature of the work, so at least the accused know the risks beforehand. If there are accusations with some reasonable substantiation, even if not meeting the legal burden of "beyond a reasonable doubt", that person should be suspended or stood down, and it be in their contract no questions asked.

 

[spurspinter1]

They played better last year, data wise and anecdotally that is backed up (across most stats)

Arteta fudged that up by trying to prove he's smart, 1. with the idiotic keeper situation, so instead of one decent keeper in form, he has two shaky keepers under pressure. 2. unbalanced the team, they had a very good midfield, adding Rice to that made sense, adding Havertz to it doesn't. This is compounded by the fact that the money they committed to Raya & Havertz would have got them a decent striker that would have improved the team significantly.

Arsenal are just a team that has spent a brick load of money, and given a system manager a long run (result is, they are very well drilled, know how to play). If you watch them play, it's circa 2017 version of Pep with a bricker total squad. I still think the appointment of Arteta is a mistake for them, the two 8th places were time & revenue lost. I don't see any world where he moves on to a bigger club (as context, if Ange got us a trophy and 2nd place in PL, I'd see clubs coming for him)

Re VAR, clubs have a culture, we know Liverpool's, Arsenal has always been to be whinners and cheaters (all the way back)

I would imagine that if it was us pushing City like they do playing their style of football you'd be full of credit and praise, whereas respectfully it sounds like you're a bit blinkered when it comes to giving them any credit. It does make sense as we're on a Spurs board and it's not cool to praise them. As for Arteta's next job we'll see, he seems pretty happy at the club but i wouldn't be surprised to see him at Barcelona or Real Madrid but time will tell.

 

[Raziel]

I would imagine that if it was us pushing City like they do playing their style of football you'd be full of credit and praise, whereas respectfully it sounds like you're a bit blinkered when it comes to giving them any credit. It does make sense as we're on a Spurs board and it's not cool to praise them. As for Arteta's next job we'll see, he seems pretty happy at the club but i wouldn't be surprised to see him at Barcelona or Real Madrid but time will tell.

Time will tell, and obviously not only do I dislike them, he's a dislikable clam himself.

But the facts perspective is, 4 years, £600M+ and they are "competing", statistically they are worse off this year across the board.

You are also missing the point that Arsenal is still not back to the Wenger era position (which they held for about 20+ years), so they getting back into top 4 is nothing like the achievement of Spurs doing it (we weren't there, weren't established, didn't have the experience)

But all opinions ..

 

[spurspinter1]

Time will tell, and obviously not only do I dislike them, he's a dislikable clam himself.

But the facts perspective is, 4 years, £600M+ and they are "competing", statistically they are worse off this year across the board.

You are also missing the point that Arsenal is still not back to the Wenger era position (which they held for about 20+ years), so they getting back into top 4 is nothing like the achievement of Spurs doing it (we weren't there, weren't established, didn't have the experience)

But all opinions ..

Net spend over five years has us spending only a 100m less and they've won 2 FA cups in that time (5 in the last decade) in addition to finishing 2nd last season and have continued that kind of form this season. To have the remotest chance of competing against City you have to spend but also spend well. Sure you're entitled to the opinion of not liking them or the manager, we share that opinion but league standings + trophies are not opinion based. They're further on in their project than we are because of unsuitable managerial appointments lurching from one style to another in the hole of quick fixes. The patience shown after two 8th place finishes has paid off for them lot and we will likely have to show the same kind of patience until we can become vaguely competitive unless we just want to cry misfortune when one or two injuries in key places derail what makes the team function.

Not sure I fully get the Wenger point, Ferguson was hugely successful and you could argue that it's been tougher on the managers that have followed because of that success, just because a club has done well it doesn't make it easy to sustain that success. It can work both ways depending on the state of the squad and manner of the departure of the previous manager..