The glorious march to CL qualification

[glorygloryeze]

You’d hope we never see a second half like that again but Poch has been banging the drum all season. Perception vs Reality. After United and before Watford. No real coincidence we are going down to teams like Saints and Burnley that have something to really fight for. Our players just don’t seem to have the stones right now.

I think in previous seasons when we’ve lost, I agree that we’ve mostly been unlucky. It was always usually some unlucky deflection or pinball in our box that goes against us, but this season we’ve just been outworked in games and have given it up. Watford. Wolves. Burnley. Saints. We’ve really deserved to lose those games.

I’d like to think we recover for the final stretch but I can’t remember a time under Poch’s reign where we’ve struggled so much with performances at this point in the season. I fully trust the man and think after this summer when he’s able to make some required changes, we’ll be back and firing again. But for the rest of this season, I’m not convinced he has the control over this particular group that he’s had previously. They are sloppy and complacent right now, and that’s a different thing to what we’ve seen under Poch since his first year.

I agree with a lot of that re our performances and most losses being deserved these days due to being bullied/outworked.

I'm not sure the issue is complacency in the team though; take the first 11 vs Soton:

Lloris - he has zero need to be comlpacent/sloppy; he is the world cup winning captain but has yet to achieve anything with us and it's not like he is guaranteed to leave us for a bigger team/payday given his performamces over the last year or so. He's also want to still dine at the top table(s). In fact it was a coup to be able to hold him during those AVB/Sherwood years and the first year under Poch

Walker-Peters: this is a rookie who has had few chances to play and would have wanted to grab his chance with open arms. No inherent complency imo there

Sanchez - in his second season in engalnd and whilst has gained paludits, has also been under the microscope more this season due to some mistakes; knows he's not guarenteed to start given the Dutch pair so no inherant complacency imo there

Vertonghen - Has been a model pro most of the time with us, similar to Hugo (but without the drink-driving obvs); he is one of the oldest in our squad but still just about our most reliable defender. If he looks more complacent that he used to, could it just be age catching up with him? He's had quite a few injuries in the last two years as well..

Rose - hmm, he was the one you would have expected to have been 'bombed out' given how he did that stupid Sun newspaper interview; Thankfully, he still hasn't had that pay rise and his sloppiness is nothing new; so, was it new complacency or still not learning things re defensive work he should have years ago?

Dier - just come back from a long time out injured/ill; was he any more sloppy than normal?

Sissoko - this guy is having the time of his life when you compare with the rest of his career; i'm sure he has NEVER been in a team third in the table/qualified for CL quarters; he can be accused on some things (even looking quite lazy as he often does pointing and standing still) but complacency? No way...

Alli - can often look lacsidasical compared to previous years, but i think it's just him trying to manage himself given his injuries. Whilst sometimes his passing decisions have often fustrated, and sometimes he slows things down, he's the last one i'd call complacent

Eriksen - well, people can maybe fill their boots on this one! however, i still think he's suffereing because we don't have the kind of defensive/tackling ability we used to with peak Wanyama/Dembele (Dier, whilst good has never been on either of their levels when it comes to that)

Moura - this guy barely plays these days; perhaps tehre is a question of decision-making and quality of end-product, but can he really be accused of complacency at this stage in his Spurs career?

Kane - hmm, after his comments earlier in the week about "taking the next step" can he be labelled complacent? Sure, he may not be at his best atm, still hesiates too much when shooting and missed his fair share of chances on Saturday, but complacency i think is the last thing that could be labelled at Kane imo.

I'm not sure the issue is really 'complacency' tbh; what have these guys actually achieved to feel that way? I think the issue is much more about being physically not able; the mind is willing but the body cannot do it any more atm for most of these guys and you know why/how that has come about so i'm not going to go into that again.

We can only hope 3 weeks off this time can help to physically rejuvenate most of these guys as there is still alot to play for.

I just wish Poch will stop questioning their effort/mentality in public if he isn't going to actually drop the obvious culprits such as Eriksen and give others a chance. He just becomes background noise at that time and starts to look and sound like a coach losing his ability to coach/motivate imo

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Unfortunately self-awareness isnt huge in football fans, however the Venn diagram of people saying that they cant be arsed to go to wembley, or slagging off the club because of transfers or stadium delay at every opportunity are the same that slag off Poch and Levy.

Since november complete malaise has drifted over the club, its only natural that this starts drifting into the players.

As Poch said its an attitude thing, both within the supporters and the players, the fatalistic everything is going to go wrong and we cant succeed, this is going to take 5-10yrs to fix, if not within the players, within the "support"

Once the stadium is open, anybody carrying on the transfer groans or cheese room jokes or doesnt help create an atmosphere cant then complain if the malaise continues, i honestly believe the biggest danger to Poch and our success is probably the Fans themselves.

 

[glorygloryeze]

So the fans are to blame for players getting bullied by Burnley and proceeding to take 1 point from 12 when they were within 5 points off the top? I suppose the fans are to blame for the defensive brainfarts in all of our league games since Leicester - a game we were EXTREMELY lucky to win in any case?

So @imcallingbullsh*t what happened in the 10 days between the euphoria of beating Dortmund 3-0 and being 4/5 points off the top and the limp display away at Burnley that was due to the fans?

 

[mudshark]

I think we'll need something from both games v Liverpool and City if we are to hang on to a top 4 place now. Probably 4 points.

 

[glorygloryeze]

If we don't get top 4 this season, will it be the most Spurzy or Spurzy situations?

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I agree with a lot of that re our performances and most losses being deserved these days due to being bullied/outworked.

I'm not sure the issue is complacency in the team though; take the first 11 vs Soton:

Lloris - he has zero need to be comlpacent/sloppy; he is the world cup winning captain but has yet to achieve anything with us and it's not like he is guaranteed to leave us for a bigger team/payday given his performamces over the last year or so. He's also want to still dine at the top table(s). In fact it was a coup to be able to hold him during those AVB/Sherwood years and the first year under Poch

Walker-Peters: this is a rookie who has had few chances to play and would have wanted to grab his chance with open arms. No inherent complency imo there

Sanchez - in his second season in engalnd and whilst has gained paludits, has also been under the microscope more this season due to some mistakes; knows he's not guarenteed to start given the Dutch pair so no inherant complacency imo there

Vertonghen - Has been a model pro most of the time with us, similar to Hugo (but without the drink-driving obvs); he is one of the oldest in our squad but still just about our most reliable defender. If he looks more complacent that he used to, could it just be age catching up with him? He's had quite a few injuries in the last two years as well..

Rose - hmm, he was the one you would have expected to have been 'bombed out' given how he did that stupid Sun newspaper interview; Thankfully, he still hasn't had that pay rise and his sloppiness is nothing new; so, was it new complacency or still not learning things re defensive work he should have years ago?

Dier - just come back from a long time out injured/ill; was he any more sloppy than normal?

Sissoko - this guy is having the time of his life when you compare with the rest of his career; i'm sure he has NEVER been in a team third in the table/qualified for CL quarters; he can be accused on some things (even looking quite lazy as he often does pointing and standing still) but complacency? No way...

Alli - can often look lacsidasical compared to previous years, but i think it's just him trying to manage himself given his injuries. Whilst sometimes his passing decisions have often fustrated, and sometimes he slows things down, he's the last one i'd call complacent

Eriksen - well, people can maybe fill their boots on this one! however, i still think he's suffereing because we don't have the kind of defensive/tackling ability we used to with peak Wanyama/Dembele (Dier, whilst good has never been on either of their levels when it comes to that)

Moura - this guy barely plays these days; perhaps tehre is a question of decision-making and quality of end-product, but can he really be accused of complacency at this stage in his Spurs career?

Kane - hmm, after his comments earlier in the week about "taking the next step" can he be labelled complacent? Sure, he may not be at his best atm, still hesiates too much when shooting and missed his fair share of chances on Saturday, but complacency i think is the last thing that could be labelled at Kane imo.

I'm not sure the issue is really 'complacency' tbh; what have these guys actually achieved to feel that way? I think the issue is much more about being physically not able; the mind is willing but the body cannot do it any more atm for most of these guys and you know why/how that has come about so i'm not going to go into that again.

We can only hope 3 weeks off this time can help to physically rejuvenate most of these guys as there is still alot to play for.

I just wish Poch will stop questioning their effort/meteorology in public if he isn't going to actually drop the obvious culprits such as Eriksen and give others a chance. He just becomes background noise at that time and starts to look and sound like a coach losing his ability to coach/motivate imo

This is just going back to the other thread, and the issue of complacency vs fatigue which we aren't going to agree on. All I would say is, you're absolutely right in the players you have listed above, not many of them have any reason at all to be complacent. But that's almost the point for me. They don't have any reason, and yet, here we are. When we (as in Poch) question whether these players have the mentality to take us to the next level, this is why.

If you remember Poch's book, he talks about Dier going to the Euros, and coming back and not quite being the same guy for a couple of months. We'd signed Wanyama who was playing, but because Dier's demeanour around the place was less enthusiastic. He wasn't working as hard in the gym. His numbers in training were down. So Poch took him out of the team. Luckily we had Wanyama to fill the gap, but the point is Poch sees when someone isn't quite doing it. Once he saw Dier was back to his normal self, he put him in the team. Even if it meant he played with Wanyama, he got Dier in because it was someone he trusted to uphold the standards he expected.

I'm just not sure he has that this season. Someone like Lucas should be taking some slack off of some of our attackers, as should Lamela. But Lucas isn't getting the game time. Lamela maybe because of recent injury history. But the point is, he knows when players aren't pulling their weight. And he will call it out when he sees it. I think he and Perez are two of the most obsessed over fitness and conditioning in the League, and a lot of what they are doing is trying to evolve player's mentality. After the Wolves game, when all the talk was that the players were tired, I think it was a very deliverate action to play them again 3 days later to not let them think that. To evolve their mentality again.

We have been able to punch above our weight because we run more than the opposition. We have great coaching, a great system, and players that have proven themselves, but if they don't work as hard, none of the rest nearly means as much. Maybe it has been all the injury problems, or maybe it is more mental fatigue, or maybe it is flat up arrogance and complacency. Either way, I don't have much confidence that this is turned around before the end of the season. This squad has had it in them. The collapse to 3rd in the Leceister season. It's strange that we are able to perform in the CL but not in the League. To me that's a mental thing rather than a physical thing.

 

[glorygloryeze]

This is just going back to the other thread, and the issue of complacency vs fatigue which we aren't going to agree on. All I would say is, you're absolutely right in the players you have listed above, not many of them have any reason at all to be complacent. But that's almost the point for me. They don't have any reason, and yet, here we are. When we (as in Poch) question whether these players have the meteorology to take us to the next level, this is why.

If you remember Poch's book, he talks about Dier going to the Euros, and coming back and not quite being the same guy for a couple of months. We'd signed Wanyama who was playing, but because Dier's demeanour around the place was less enthusiastic. He wasn't working as hard in the gym. His numbers in training were down. So Poch took him out of the team. Luckily we had Wanyama to fill the gap, but the point is Poch sees when someone isn't quite doing it. Once he saw Dier was back to his normal self, he put him in the team. Even if it meant he played with Wanyama, he got Dier in because it was someone he trusted to uphold the standards he expected.

I'm just not sure he has that this season. Someone like Lucas should be taking some slack off of some of our attackers, as should Lamela. But Lucas isn't getting the game time. Lamela maybe because of recent injury history. But the point is, he knows when players aren't pulling their weight. And he will call it out when he sees it. I think he and Perez are two of the most obsessed over fitness and conditioning in the League, and a lot of what they are doing is trying to evolve player's meteorology. After the Wolves game, when all the talk was that the players were tired, I think it was a very deliverate action to play them again 3 days later to not let them think that. To evolve their meteorology again.

We have been able to punch above our weight because we run more than the opposition. We have great coaching, a great system, and players that have proven themselves, but if they don't work as hard, none of the rest nearly means as much. Maybe it has been all the injury problems, or maybe it is more mental fatigue, or maybe it is flat up arrogance and complacency. Either way, I don't have much confidence that this is turned around before the end of the season. This squad has had it in them. The collapse to 3rd in the Leceister season. It's strange that we are able to perform in the CL but not in the League. To me that's a mental thing rather than a physical thing.

Very good points BoL; i'll try to answer them in bits below:

There is a point when the physical meets the mental; i'm sure many of us wouild mentally want to be as good as Messi but our physical limitations/age/lack of actual football control ability lol will limit us. I think the body after years of gruelling Poch physical demands can only go so far for some players, especially the older ones. Eventually the body will give in depsite whatever yoir mind might want: after all, why isn't Roy Keane still playing? That guy had the mentality of a winner more than possibly any player in his generation.

That is a good point re Dier in Poch's book: but again Poch had an alternative player for Dier to see if he doesn't up his level he'd be replaced in the team for. If Poch didn't ahve that, then what could/would he have done? probably what he's doing now re Eriksen out of neccesity: keep playing Dier as needs must. If you have viable alternatives, that course of actions continues to be an option; if you don't it's not.

On the issue of trying to evolve our mentality, i think this is where Poch took some big missteps with his "we don't care about half of the trophies on offer" speil when we exited from teh cups. A 'winning menatality' is not something you can turn on and off like a tap or a light switch. You either evolve it fully or you don't: Poch can't complain about 'not taking Burnley seriously' if he poo-poos cups publicly; i mean what if most of our players are actually gagging to win a league or FA cup for us fans? What if they feel our yearning for it as much as the other magic CL nights? Don't get me wrong, i'm not blind to the fact that we financially etc have to priortise the CL/top4 etc but as i say you cannot turn a 'winning mentality' on and off: you either have it or you don't and Poch has spent time trying to improve ours and i think he made a major misstep there with his comments (all he needed to say 'we continue to try our best' and put out whatever team appropriate at the time given squad options available) and tbh it could be argued he's contradicting himself questioning the team's mentality now and is partly responsible for any mental malaise, if the malaise is indeed mental (personally i think it's more a physical malaise).

Regardless, the fact you have no confidence of a turnaround is what is most scary though
For me not even @thfcsteff positivity can make up for that

 

[afsoc4life]

The solution to me is below.

- We need more players of a certain quality
- Getting such increases competition and allows players to have much needed rest
- We need to rotate players. Even if Kane is 100% fit, it is not wise to play him 100% of the time. Your squad needs rotation so that they know how to play with one another.
- Cliques - BREAK THEM, SMASH THEM, GET RID OF THEM. Nigeria had so much problems in the Super Eagles post 1994/96 because cliques were formed in the squad. Players wouldnt pass to certain players. The captain would exert influence on player selection. A hot mess.

 

[parklane1]

Well i never though we had a chance of winning the Prem and although a few fans ( and the media) thought we were in with a chance it was not going to happen, we are not good enough and i have no problem in admitting that.

I still think we will make the top four though, Utd, Chelski, Arse are going to drop points (imo) over the last games and although it will be a nailbiter i believe we will do it.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Very good points BoL; i'll try to answer them in bits below:

There is a point when the physical meets the mental; i'm sure many of us wouild mentally want to be as good as Messi but our physical limitations/age/lack of actual football control ability lol will limit us. I think the body after years of gruelling Poch physical demands can only go so far for some players, especially the older ones. Eventually the body will give in depsite whatever yoir mind might want: after all, why isn't Roy Keane still playing? That guy had the meteorology of a winner more than possibly any player in his generation.

That is a good point re Dier in Poch's book: but again Poch had an alternative player for Dier to see if he doesn't up his level he'd be replaced in the team for. If Poch didn't ahve that, then what could/would he have done? probably what he's doing now re Eriksen out of neccesity: keep playing Dier as needs must. If you have viable alternatives, that course of actions continues to be an option; if you don't it's not.

On the issue of trying to evolve our meteorology, i think this is where Poch took some big missteps with his "we don't care about half of the trophies on offer" speil when we exited from teh cups. A 'winning menatality' is not something you can turn on and off like a tap or a light switch. You either evolve it fully or you don't: Poch can't complain about 'not taking Burnley seriously' if he poo-poos cups publicly; i mean what if most of our players are actually gagging to win a league or FA cup for us fans? What if they feel our yearning for it as much as the other magic CL nights? Don't get me wrong, i'm not blind to the fact that we financially etc have to priortise the CL/top4 etc but as i say you cannot turn a 'winning meteorology' on and off: you either have it or you don't and Poch has spent time trying to improve ours and i think he made a major misstep there with his comments (all he needed to say 'we continue to try our best' and put out whatever team appropriate at the time given squad options available) and tbh it could be argued he's contradicting himself questioning the team's meteorology now and is partly responsible for any mental malaise, if the malaise is indeed mental (personally i think it's more a physical malaise).

Regardless, the fact you have no confidence of a turnaround is what is most scary though
For me not even @thfcsteff positivity can make up for that

I have confidence that long-term, over the next 5 years, we will be fine. The stadium keeps us up there, and provided we don't enter a period of nonsense Saudi Sportswashing Machine-style management, I think we're here to stay, And I think this summer, Poch makes some big changes and next season we are closer to what he wants us to be again.

But rest of this season...we've been so bad lately. Repeatedly stupid, comical, lazy mistakes. I'd almost prefer it if we were getting dingdonged on for a couple of games, because Poch could change some things and we'd refine ourselves and be fine. But I think the coaching is right. I think the system is right. I just think these players, for whatever reason, are at the end. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[parklane1]

But rest of this season...we've been so bad lately. Repeatedly stupid, comical, lazy mistakes. I'd almost prefer it if we were getting dingdonged on for a couple of games, because Poch could change some things and we'd refine ourselves and be fine. But I think the coaching is right. I think the system is right. I just think these players, for whatever reason, are at the end. I hope I'm wrong.

Have to agree with this, maybe its because they ( or some of them) have fallen into the trap of all the praise they have had in the press etc, pity they have because they must of forgot that they have no actually WON anything.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

On the issue of trying to evolve our meteorology, i think this is where Poch took some big missteps with his "we don't care about half of the trophies on offer" speil when we exited from teh cups. A 'winning menatality' is not something you can turn on and off like a tap or a light switch. You either evolve it fully or you don't: Poch can't complain about 'not taking Burnley seriously' if he poo-poos cups publicly; i mean what if most of our players are actually gagging to win a league or FA cup for us fans? What if they feel our yearning for it as much as the other magic CL nights? Don't get me wrong, i'm not blind to the fact that we financially etc have to priortise the CL/top4 etc but as i say you cannot turn a 'winning meteorology' on and off: you either have it or you don't and Poch has spent time trying to improve ours and i think he made a major misstep there with his comments (all he needed to say 'we continue to try our best' and put out whatever team appropriate at the time given squad options available) and tbh it could be argued he's contradicting himself questioning the team's meteorology now and is partly responsible for any mental malaise, if the malaise is indeed mental (personally i think it's more a physical malaise).

Poch never said we dont care about half the trophies or anything like it, I do wish you would give him due credit on that instead of spin.

He said, in effect, the FA and League cups are jolly days out that are good for the fans, and that the League and CL are the competitions that actually make a team.

And when you look at it in terms of reward, it is entirely the case. I looked it up the other day, Liverpool stood to get £80m our of being CL losing finalists. The FA cup winner ends up with about £3m all in.

And if you also take a step back and look, you will see that despite this Poch has taken the League and FA cups seriously. 3 semis in a row now is it? Hardly "doesnt care" kind of commitment to the competitions.

He has repeatedly stated he would like to win them. His 'crime' was in saying doing so wont actually change much (something I agree with, see 2008)

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

So the fans are to blame for players getting bullied by Burnley and proceeding to take 1 point from 12 when they were within 5 points off the top? I suppose the fans are to blame for the defensive brainfarts in all of our league games since Leicester - a game we were EXTREMELY lucky to win in any case?

So @imcallingbullsh*t what happened in the 10 days between the euphoria of beating Dortmund 3-0 and being 4/5 points off the top and the limp display away at Burnley that was due to the fans?

Not quite what i said was it

You're point about what changed between Dortmund and Now is a salient point though, as the current meltdown wasnt occurring during the equally poor period when we won 4 on the bounce, Fulham etc... Even though the issues were still there

As you said we were 5pts off top, so either we are utter dross, poch hasnt rotated, kane should have stayed on bench, eriksen is lazy OR
We were 5pts off top and must be a good team but for xxx reason we have had a bad set of results.

The predictability of the meltdown, the instant calling out of "happy clappers" seems like our own fans take more enjoyment in us falling apart so their point is proved. If thats the approach you (i mean you generally) take then dont then to be surprised for some of that to then get down to the players and then Poch.

Poch has brought into Levy's Plan, Kane has brought into Poch's plan... Im not sure you can remove 1 from the chain without impacting the other 2

 

[imcallingbullsh*t]

Poch never said we dont care about half the trophies or anything like it, I do wish you would give him due credit on that instead of spin.

He said, in effect, the FA and League cups are jolly days out that are good for the fans, and that the League and CL are the competitions that actually make a team.

And when you look at it in terms of reward, it is entirely the case. I looked it up the other day, Liverpool stood to get £80m our of being CL losing finalists. The FA cup winner ends up with about £3m all in.

And if you also take a step back and look, you will see that despite this Poch has taken the League and FA cups seriously. 3 semis in a row now is it? Hardly "doesnt care" kind of commitment to the competitions.

He has repeatedly stated he would like to win them. His 'crime' was in saying doing so wont actually change much (something I agree with, see 2008)

Exactly this, Poch is not great at soundbites, what we trying to do is not a good soundbite
I may be in the minority but i watch every press-conference and i understand exactly his point with you outlined above

Issue is, Tottenham build slowly and suffer bump in road isnt as good as Spurs collapse.
The first 45 against southampton was as good as we have been since before Xmas, The second 45 was as bad as weve been since chelsea first half.

That doesnt mean we need to throw the squad under the bus, or panic, we just need to fix the issues we know about.

What i dont accept is that 5yrs of progress can be un-done in 3 weeks and everything is questioned

I think we will get CL next year, but if we dont, then its a blip not a restart

 

[glorygloryeze]

Not quite what i said was it

You're point about what changed between Dortmund and Now is a salient point though, as the current meltdown wasnt occurring during the equally poor period when we won 4 on the bounce, Fulham etc... Even though the issues were still there

As you said we were 5pts off top, so either we are utter dross, poch hasnt rotated, kane should have stayed on bench, eriksen is lazy OR
We were 5pts off top and must be a good team but for xxx reason we have had a bad set of results.

The predictability of the meltdown, the instant calling out of "happy clappers" seems like our own fans take more enjoyment in us falling apart so their point is proved. If thats the approach you (i mean you generally) take then dont then to be surprised for some of that to then get down to the players and then Poch.

Poch has bought into Levy's Plan, Kane has bought into Poch's plan... Im not sure you can remove 1 from the chain without impacting the other 2

The issues effecting us now were indeed present ALL SEASON despite our lofty position in the table. If any fans are miffed now it is because it could be seen LAST SEASON that there are issues with the team and that it was hoped they'd be rectified in the summer.
Again, i don't see what the fans attitude etc has to do with the downturn of results since the Dortmund first leg: if anaything moist fans were much more in the "happy clappy" camp as you out it, so i don't buy this "bad attitude seeping from the fans to the players" bit you seem to suggest at all. As i say we as a club were generally on cloud 9 and the players were heroes at that point.

Poch and Kane have indeed bought into Levy's plan, but lo and behold they themselves are questioning the team/club's ability to 'take the last step'...were they talking about the fans as well?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Poch never said we dont care about half the trophies or anything like it, I do wish you would give him due credit on that instead of spin.

He said, in effect, the FA and League cups are jolly days out that are good for the fans, and that the League and CL are the competitions that actually make a team.

And when you look at it in terms of reward, it is entirely the case. I looked it up the other day, Liverpool stood to get £80m our of being CL losing finalists. The FA cup winner ends up with about £3m all in.

And if you also take a step back and look, you will see that despite this Poch has taken the League and FA cups seriously. 3 semis in a row now is it? Hardly "doesnt care" kind of commitment to the competitions.

He has repeatedly stated he would like to win them. His 'crime' was in saying doing so wont actually change much (something I agree with, see 2008)

Any trophy win is a 'jolly day out' one should be careful to not poo-poo any trophy imo; after all if one cannot get over the line in a league or FA Cup semi-final, why should they be assumed to be able to win a two-legged quater or semi-final of the CL? Or win away at a Burnley or a Watford to go joint top?
Again 'winning' starts from somewhere. And ANY/ALL trophies feed our egos lol

In terms of financials, there can be no argument about the relative rewards of the different trophies of course. But again, you have to start somewhere and Poch (and actually us as a club) are not in the lofty/c)cksure position of picking and choosing.

Yes, Poch has indeed taken FA Cup/league cups seriously, i never doubted that, it's his words to explain a loss which i think did him no favours. All he had to say was "we tried, we go again" blah blah.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Any trophy win is a 'jolly day out' one should be careful to not poo-poo any trophy imo; after all if one cannot get over the line in a league or FA Cup semi-final, why should they be assumed to be able to win a two-legged quater or semi-final of the CL? Or win away at a Burnley or a Watford to go joint top?
Again 'winning' starts from somewhere. And ANY/ALL trophies feed our egos lol

In terms of financials, there can be no argument about the relative rewards of the different trophies of course. But again, you have to start somewhere and Poch (and actually us as a club) are not in the lofty/c)cksure position of picking and choosing.

Yes, Poch has indeed taken FA Cup/league cups seriously, i never doubted that, it's his words to explain a loss which i think did him no favours. All he had to say was "we tried, we go again" blah blah.

I really think youve turned this in your mind into something it never was. You repeatedly bring it up and attach it to various points that are unrelated.

And honestly, I think youve lost the point being made in the process.

Poch has taken the competitions seriously, as you say. He has also offered honest perspective on what they represent - which you agree with. And yet, somehow, you have a problem with it?

And you misrepresent his words in doing so.


The semi final of any competition is going to be a 50/50 sort of game, losing which isnt indicative of major failings - its the nature of competitive sport.

I dont disagree, winning CAN be a catalyst for a team to move on. But it is not the case that winning WILL be a catalyst for a team to step up. Its been proven before time and again.

The best we can do is do our best, which I believe we do. Hence, me personally, I dont have any issue at all with his comments on the matter. I believe I understand what he was saying and I agree with him.

Seems like an odd one to get hung up on, IMO.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Well, Poch himself gets hung up on it; see his recent comments on the team..after all, why can't Trippier et al say "well we only care about CL nights vs Dortmund so who cares about away games on a cold Saturday morning in Burnley"?

Poch had no need to say what he said, wouldn't have made a difference to the result of course and perhaps it was said to reduce pressure on himself (after all he himself hasn't won anything as a manager) and the team. I think if anything it invited more pressure than necessary..

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Well, Poch himself gets hung up on it; see his recent comments on the team..after all, why can't Trippier et al say "well we only care about CL nights vs Dortmund so who cares about away games on a cold Saturday morning in Burnley"?

Poch had no need to say what he said, wouldn't have made a difference to the result of course and perhaps it was said to reduce pressure on himself (after all he himself hasn't won anything as a manager) and the team. I think if anything it invited more pressure than necessary..

Care to explain/expand?

 

[glorygloryeze]

Care to explain/expand?

Poch has recently questioned the mentality of the team after our recent losses, in particular the losses at Burnley and at Soton on the weekend...my point is that "winning mentality" cannot be turned on or off like a light-switch; if you can be 'meh' about losing one game you can be 'meh' about losing others...