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The Crossroads...

Sometimes. Not always, its pretty dry.

I wasnt the one to bring up money as the be all end all diviner of where we should finish.

I actually think the fact we have a top class squad is more pertinent.
It is no coincidence that all across Europe the clubs that spend the most are the clubs that continually finish at the top end of the league. If we do have a top class squad as you say we do then that surely is testament to our manager who has somehow managed to build that squad over the 5 years he has been here despite not having anything like the same resources as a number of other clubs in the same league as us?

Who do we really have in this squad that is top class though? I would say: Vertonghen, Kane, Son, NDombele and perhaps Dele? (although he is clearly struggling for form after coming back from injury).

Previous iterations of Alderweireld, Eriksen, Wanyama and Rose would've been in that list but no longer are as a result of either clearly wanting out (the first two), being broken (Wanyama) or a combination of all three (Rose)
 
Has our budget slipped to 11th biggest?

I can't pull every metric out of thin air, but this has us 13th
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I think perhaps this marks a crossroads in more ways than one, but overall they all come under the umbrella of what direction the club takes. Everything is off time, just like us already being in the Champions League before the new stadium is built. This a lot more than a simple "results are going downhill, change the manager" situation.

This has been going on for more than a year imo and is now coupled with all those nagging doubts we have had for longer. Things like youth intergration and game management are being brought up a lot more now that we aren't ripping teams apart.

On the footballing side, we have a team that are not only failing to win football matches but have looked completely unprofessional at times. The standard of the football produced has gone backwards, individuals have regressed and all the stats show that we aren't getting better. We have seen a defensive 352 at home to Watford and away to Colchester, whilst at the other end of the spectrum we see diamonds that leave our fullbacks exposed against teams like Bayern. Poch is the man responsible for how we go out and play and to this end he has to take criticism here.

On the personal side, he has developed from a lovable character, to a cryptic showman and now a cantankerous git. The comments he has made in the last year regarding other jobs and his status within the club have left some fans bewildered and no doubt one or two players (the UCL final specifically here). There are rumours abound of players no longer finding his training stimulating, of a disconnect between him and some of the playing staff and results on the pitch would back this up to some degree.

If we are talking long termism then we have to ask whether the cost of blind loyalty is greater than the cost of making the hard decision. Even if we aren't talking about Mourinho, there is still a conversation to be had about if another manager other than Poch can not only achieve more short term but also long term. That for me is the bigger argument because if we don't fix things short term, the impacts could be far greater than sacking a manager too soon.

If we stick with Poch, we will in all likelihood miss out on the UCL next year. That in itself is not something to be underestimated. Whilst Liverpool have made it back, Arsenal and UTD are still struggling to make it a regular habit especially in the case of Arsenal who from a business model we are closest to.

Without UCL we stand a good chance of losing our best players and I think that it is imperative that if/when we lose players like Kane and Son, we have UCL football. We cannot match the wages of the biggest clubs yet and part of me wonders if Levy would even sanction such a thing, but the UCL is the sweetener that can get that deal agreed. No UCL and no stupid wages means we will struggle to get players of sufficient quality to match those that remain. We will be in a position where the talented seniors are disheartened in witnessing the top pros leave and be replaced by nobody's (the Danny Rose situation). If you are N'Dombele, how many years do you give it before you agitate for a move in that situation?

Yes this is a spiral into a dark dark place, but it is all the same very realistic. I have been saddened at the sacking of most of our managers, even AVB who despite giving us horrible football still came across as a nice guy. Poch has given us some great nights and in all honesty I really wish that he could turn it all around, but that has to happen very soon, because if it doesn't, all of those things that he would need to see us back competing will be unavailable to him.
 
I mean currently, you know, to perfectly explain our position. Obviously budget being the most reliable indicator and that...
Currently as in right now? Well at the last accounting figures published we had slipped to £75 million a season behind Arsenal in player wages, £96 million behind Chelsea, £112 million behind Emirates Marketing Project, £116 million behind Liverpool and £152 million behind Man Utd. While we were slipping further behind the clubs that we are demanding our manager competes against, Everton had sneaked up and closed to a mere £3 million behind us in their wage bill.
 
I think perhaps this marks a crossroads in more ways than one, but overall they all come under the umbrella of what direction the club takes. Everything is off time, just like us already being in the Champions League before the new stadium is built. This a lot more than a simple "results are going downhill, change the manager" situation.

This has been going on for more than a year imo and is now coupled with all those nagging doubts we have had for longer. Things like youth intergration and game management are being bought up a lot more now that we aren't ripping teams apart.

On the footballing side, we have a team that are not only failing to win football matches but have looked completely unprofessional at times. The standard of the football produced has gone backwards, individuals have regressed and all the stats show that we aren't getting better. We have seen a defensive 352 at home to Watford and away to Colchester, whilst at the other end of the spectrum we see diamonds that leave our fullbacks exposed against teams like Bayern. Poch is the man responsible for how we go out and play and to this end he has to take criticism here.

On the personal side, he has developed from a lovable character, to a cryptic showman and now a cantankerous git. The comments he has made in the last year regarding other jobs and his status within the club have left some fans bewildered and no doubt one or two players (the UCL final specifically here). There are rumours abound of players no longer finding his training stimulating, of a disconnect between him and some of the playing staff and results on the pitch would back this up to some degree.

If we are talking long termism then we have to ask whether the cost of blind loyalty is greater than the cost of making the hard decision. Even if we aren't talking about Mourinho, there is still a conversation to be had about if another manager other than Poch can not only achieve more short term but also long term. That for me is the bigger argument because if we don't fix things short term, the impacts could be far greater than sacking a manager too soon.

If we stick with Poch, we will in all likelihood miss out on the UCL next year. That in itself is not something to be underestimated. Whilst Liverpool have made it back, Arsenal and UTD are still struggling to make it a regular habit especially in the case of Arsenal who from a business model we are closest to.

Without UCL we stand a good chance of losing our best players and I think that it is imperative that if/when we lose players like Kane and Son, we have UCL football. We cannot match the wages of the biggest clubs yet and part of me wonders if Levy would even sanction such a thing, but the UCL is the sweetener that can get that deal agreed. No UCL and no stupid wages means we will struggle to get players of sufficient quality to match those that remain. We will be in a position where the talented seniors are disheartened in witnessing the top pros leave and be replaced by nobody's (the Danny Rose situation). If you are N'Dombele, how many years do you give it before you agitate for a move in that situation?

Yes this is a spiral into a dark dark place, but it is all the same very realistic. I have been saddened at the sacking of most of our managers, even AVB who despite giving us horrible football still came across as a nice guy. Poch has given us some great nights and in all honesty I really wish that he could turn it all around, but that has to happen very soon, because if it doesn't, all of those things that he would need to see us back competing will be unavailable to him.
And yet you appear to be ignoring @Finney Is Back 's point about Poch being the only manager in the top European Leagues who has managed to consistently compete against clubs with bigger budgets than his own. I've not checked this, but if true we are fudged in terms of Champions League finish whether we sack Poch or not. He remains our best chance to get it.
 
Great thread with lots of good points for both sides. My tuppence worth, I’ve been a spurs fan for over 35 years when Everyone in my family was either manure or Liverpool- and why? I saw us play must’ve been a cup game really liked what I saw and stuck with it, through years and years of mediocrity with flashes of brilliance. I’ve loved our renaissance from being a mid table team to solid top 6 then solid top 4 team. What I’ve loved most is that we have achieved this the right way without having to rely on oil money or oligarch money. I’m old school I couldn’t care less if we don’t win anything as long as we’re playing it the right way. However if you’ve never had to live with the mediocrity but just our recent success I can see how you are desperate to keep the trajectory upwards, without the blips. Fergies success was built at a time where he could afford to build and renew his team because other teams couldn’t afford it as much. Now there is so much money in the game you cannot just buy success. And with so much money comes significantly more pressure on managers to win or keep their respective teams up. Which brings me to Mourinhi or not. Personally I wouldn’t given his recent past and the media circus that follows.
Would I give Poch a chance- yes but he’s got to get the team playing for him again. Losses I can take but a lack of heart from the players is hard to swallow. Levy is a business man as well as a fan and he’ll know when it’s time to move poch on, but that time is not just now. He’s not perfect but he’s what we have it’s the players we need to show a bit more heart.
 
Currently as in right now? Well at the last accounting figures published we had slipped to £75 million a season behind Arsenal in player wages, £96 million behind Chelsea, £112 million behind Emirates Marketing Project, £116 million behind Liverpool and £152 million behind Man Utd. While we were slipping further behind the clubs that we are demanding our manager competes against, Everton had sneaked up and closed to a mere £3 million behind us in their wage bill.

Cherry picking mate, Spurs revenue as a % has increased more than any other club in England over last 5 years except United, we are in fact closing the gap.

The idea that Spurs doesn't spend is simply ignoring the fact that we have spent over 1B in the structure of the club (as vs. United who may pay more wages but the fudging roof leaks). Picking wages when if you pick apart who/what those clubs are spending on (Scum's front 3 are on insane wages and no better than ours, United was paying deadbeats like Sanchez, what has Everton got for their splash?).

And to @Robspur12 no Poch isn't the only manager, Ajax made it to the SF of the CL on wages/spend that are fraction of ours and outplayed us for long periods in those two games. Monaco a few years ago as well, the myth of you will never get a better manager than the guy who has won nothing is truly Poch's greatest achievement.
 
Cherry picking mate, Spurs revenue as a % has increased more than any other club in England over last 5 years except United, we are in fact closing the gap.

The idea that Spurs doesn't spend is simply ignoring the fact that we have spent over 1B in the structure of the club (as vs. United who may pay more wages but the fudging roof leaks). Picking wages when if you pick apart who/what those clubs are spending on (Scum's front 3 are on insane wages and no better than ours, United was paying deadbeats like Sanchez, what has Everton got for their splash?).

And to @Robspur12 no Poch isn't the only manager, Ajax made it to the SF of the CL on wages/spend that are fraction of ours and outplayed us for long periods in those two games. Monaco a few years ago as well, the myth of you will never get a better manager than the guy who has won nothing is truly Poch's greatest achievement.

You can’t compare other teams from countries with lower wages IMO as their league impact is significantly less. Ajax last season had league games moved to accommodate them in Europe. They also buy the best players in their league so by rights should be a bloody good side, who play a lot of really weak teams in their league.
 
I didn't say it was because Walker and Dembele left, that's only part of it - that's two positions in the starting XI that are weaker, both of which were key to how we play our football.

Our defense has gotten worse, statistically, and in that time we've lost Dembele Dier and Wanyama in the middle of the pitch from our peak team - do you not see that there might be a correlation between the two? Who has Poch been able to bring in to make up for those losses? Winks, Sissoko, Skipp?? Is that an improvement to our team? Never mind that our two ageing CBs have their eye on the exit door and have done the past 2 years considering the contract situations of both - it's plain to see there are reasons why our defensive performance has gotten worse over the past two years and that it is more to do with the hand which Poch has been dealt as opposed to how he has played it.

With regards to attack Alli has been taken out of the role that he was doing so well in to make up the numbers in central midfield because a lack of options/signings, Walker, who was key to our attacking play, was sold and our other attacking full back has gone from worse to worse with age/injuries/mental health issues - so from our peak teams attack that's the width gone, the transitioning between the lines that Dembele bought gone and the attacking third play that Alli bought gone - and on top of that our chief creator that all our attacking play went through has pretty much told everyone he wants to play for another team and is walking away on a free at the end of the season.

Mate, not sure if you realize but you make my point

- The issue is not the personnel (even if you argue different)
- The issue is a manager who had a unique combination (two marauding FB's and a unique midfield player in Dembele) that helped him achieve success, and he has refused to adapt to those players not being there anymore.
- You argue Jan, Toby eyeing the door (revisionist, Ja up to this season has publicly indicated he wanted to play at Spurs until he wasn't good enough, Poch has somehow managed to alienate that), ok .. Sanchez (who has the tools), Foyth, Davies (can stand in), Dier, Tanganga .. none of them can find a place? Aurier is the brainfart of early Walker with the rashness of early Rose, yet Poch can't help him.

Yes, we can't play with FB's up and providing the creativity .. so what, is that the only way to play football? or the only way Poch knows how to

Amazing, we can sit here and literally say Dier, Aurier, Sanchez, KWP, Winks, Dele, Eriksen, Toby, Jan, Rose have all gone to brick (despite other than Jan/Toby none are in old age), but the manager is fine? (everyone in the world but me is crazy)

Play 3 at back with a wonky, play Son, Kane and Lucas to use pace against opposition, don't high press but counter, try to use the team you have, and there is no way I will ever buy into the theory that this squad is only good enough to be above 15th on GD only … that is just reaching ..
 
Levy has done brilliantly, but there is an argument which says he failed to jump all over the biggest opportunity to build and go we've ever had. Back in the summer many of us were saying n to only to get Lo Celso in but to really show intent and get Fernandes in too REGARDLESS of Eriksen. What we don't know is exactly why that did not happen.
That would have put us as the highest spenders in the country, but also with a bloated squad to accommodate

I’d really like Fernndes and think he would be class but we need to free up places in the squad for players like him. The easiest and most logically way is selling Eriksen but as we know, no one wants it buy him
 
You can’t compare other teams from countries with lower wages IMO as their league impact is significantly less. Ajax last season had league games moved to accommodate them in Europe. They also buy the best players in their league so by rights should be a bloody good side, who play a lot of really weak teams in their league.

This was the quote "point about Poch being the only manager in the top European Leagues who has managed to consistently compete against clubs with bigger budgets than his own"

Because the legend is now not only is Poch the most overperforming manager in the PL, nobody in Europe is doing better ...
 
That would have put us as the highest spenders in the country, but also with a bloated squad to accommodate

I’d really like Fernndes and think he would be class but we need to free up places in the squad for players like him. The easiest and most logically way is selling Eriksen but as we know, no one wants it buy him

According to Fernandes the deal was done, his club backed out at end .. but may not fit the current narrative I guess
 
This was the quote "point about Poch being the only manager in the top European Leagues who has managed to consistently compete against clubs with bigger budgets than his own"

Because the legend is now not only is Poch the most overperforming manager in the PL, nobody in Europe is doing better ...

I may be wrong but I believe that quote meant within that sides league and you have taken it out of context... I’d ask whoever wrote that first to confirm

And you can add Negelsmann as one who has did a very similar thing to Poch with Hoffenheim
 
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