Summer 2018 transfer thread

[StephenH]

Bring back Lovejoy I say

Showing your age now.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Does he? A dribbling winger who excels for a team that plays on the break with a big target man CF? He's already flopped at a top 6 possession-based side before

To me this has all the signs of a Llorente/Sissoko panic buy again

And yet if we were trying to sign Ousmane Dembele I bet you’d be all over it?

 

[harr1984]

The arguments for us taking so long on transfers are based around us going for established players at high cost - this is a departure from our usual approach.

Our transfer record since we abandonned the DoF set up is quite patchy and our record on players from abroad is quite poor, with Son being the only real success and he was a target from the DoF days -

Edit: Sanchez obviously a good signing from abroad too tbf

Sanchez wasn’t exactly a punt though, it was obvious to everyone that he was going to be a top defender hence why we had to pay top dollar for such a youngster. I’m in agreement with you, for whatever reason Poch isnt great on the transfer side of things so could do with a doF and not just to help him but Levy too....

 

[Finney Is Back]

15 mill for them, 40 mill for a top 4 club

Fulham doing some efficient business

He has a knee problem that they cannot get to the bottom of. The price was £45 million in Jan as a hands off (as a Swansea thought they could stay up and selling him would’ve lessened the chances considerably). They were looking for £20M this summer. I think that many clubs were put off by the knee problem.

FWIW I think he has more potential than McGuire.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Strange

I think it was something like a 15 million loan fee that Juve wanted for him.

 

[StephenH]

Yes and no.

The argument currently revolves more around players of sufficient quality to improve us being expensive, established or not. Particularly in the current market.

Its easier to find "A Mahrez" when you are Leicester than when you have half an eye on the title. And remember - Mahrez's improvement came as a surprise to everyone, he wasnt anywhere near as good as now when they signed him.

We are in competition with Liverpool, Man Utd etc for players - but are no competition when it comes to finances.

While I would absolutely love to grab another Mahrez out of nowhere, I have to ask - what are the chances?

When was the last time top teams even managed that?

It goes to Poch's comments on youth, as the team improves the chances of youth coming in diminish, they have to be much better to break through. Id suggests a similar line of thought to taking punts on the like of NDombele.

Think about him - even now, from Lyon - he is something of a gamble. Clearly talented, but clearly raw - I don't know we can expect an immediate impact from him. Would there have been value in us looking at him a year ago, when he would have had less chance to play and develop? And be even more raw and inexperienced?

And there's the conundrum. I'm all for bringing in and developing talent, but I'm also of the opinion its needle-in-haystack stuff to find players that can come in and make immediate contributions, or even in the short-mid term, out of nowhere.

I'm beginning to understand why the like of Utd would happily let talent move to mid-table to play at a higher level and develop before picking them up, even if it does cost more.

To be clear - I'm not arguing we shouldn't look at improving our scouting - it would be great to know we are not missing out on players. I just don't know that it will have the impact you seem to think. I think the team is such that the whole developing youth angle will take less precedence.

So youth development is not for the first team, its more for financial gain - I agree (the Chelsea model)
The chances of "A Mehrez" purchase are so diminished these days as to be a 'bit' of a waste of time - I agree
All scouting methods are saturated with increased use of technology.
Does this just push towards the current scenario of very few player at very high prices? United look to be struggling so we might as well forget it.
There are few or no options?

 

[harr1984]

Yes and no.

The argument currently revolves more around players of sufficient quality to improve us being expensive, established or not. Particularly in the current market.

Its easier to find "A Mahrez" when you are Leicester than when you have half an eye on the title. And remember - Mahrez's improvement came as a surprise to everyone, he wasnt anywhere near as good as now when they signed him.

We are in competition with Liverpool, Man Utd etc for players - but are no competition when it comes to finances.

While I would absolutely love to grab another Mahrez out of nowhere, I have to ask - what are the chances?

When was the last time top teams even managed that?

It goes to Pochs comments on youth, as the team improves the chances of youth coming in diminish, they have to be much better to break through. Id suggest a similar line of thought to taking punts on the like of NDombele.

Think about him - even now, from Lyon - he is something of a gamble. Clearly talented, but clearly raw - I dont know we can expect an immediate impact from him. Would there have been value in us looking at him a year ago, when he would have had less chance to play and develop? And been even more raw and inexperienced?

And theres the connundrum. Im all for bringing in and developing talent, but Im also of the opinion its needle-in-haystack stuff to find players that can come in and make immediate contributions, or even in the short-mid term, out of nowhere.

Im beginning to understand why the like of Utd would happily let talent move to mid table to play at a higher level and develop before picking them up, even if it does cost more.

To be clear - Im not arguing we shouldnt look at improving our scouting - it would be great to know we are not missing out on players. I just dont know that it will have the impact you seem to think. I think the team is such that the whole developing youth angle will take less precedence.

Mahrez wasn’t out of the blue mate,let’s put it this way his talent was as known in the championship as Deles was in League One. I remember watching a few of Leicester’s Championship games and every time the pundits were going on about how he would take the PL by storm and I couldn’t argue with them watching him play even then. I think it would have been great to grab that Ndombele a year ago - would have given him 1-2 seasons to be integrated whilst Dembele played out his final seasons here and would have learnt a hell of a lot from him. Even getting him now could still argue the same, even if he’s more expensive would be great long term.

Whilst clearly not the be all and end all we were most definitely better in the market when we had a dof here, I accept we are potentially shopping in a different market now but still think we would benefit with one regardless, this summer of all summers....

 

[StephenH]

Mahrez wasn’t out of the blue mate,let’s put it this way his talent was as known in the championship as Deles was in League One. I remember watching a few of Leicester’s Championship games and every time the pundits were going on about how he would take the PL by storm and I couldn’t argue with them watching him play even then. I think it would have been great to grab that Ndombele a year ago - would have given him 1-2 seasons to be integrated whilst Dembele played out his final seasons here and would have learnt a hell of a lot from him. Even getting him now could still argue the same, even if he’s more expensive would be great long term.

Whilst clearly not the be all and end all we were most definitely better in the market when we had a dof here, I accept we are potentially shopping in a different market now but still think we would benefit with one regardless, this summer of all summers....

Mahrez in the championship was in 2015. That was 'different time' at the rate the transfer has evolved and inflated. What would be the asking price today be for a similar championship player, £40m++ IMHO.

Villa wants similar for their lad I believe. Bloody madness

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We have a midtable meteorology to transfers. Levy who I rate will do it for the right reasons I have no doubt.
We actually know absolutely nothing of the details and financial workings of the clubs transfers.
We then tend to fill in this information gap with our understandable frustrations with a hope or ambition of achieving something.

This really is the crux of it. The club are so tight lipped, all we know is that we havent bought anyone. Nothing more.

We dont know the clubs intentions, if there are deals underway, if deals are nearly done, if we are going round throwing money all over...

So people just fill the gap with their own paranoia.

So youth development is not for the first team, its more for financial gain - I agree (the Chelsea model)
The chances of "A Mehrez" purchase are so diminished these days as to be a 'bit' of a waste of time - I agree
All scouting methods are saturated with increased use of technology.
Does this just push towards the current scenario of very few player at very high prices? United look to be struggling so we might as well forget it.
There are few or no options?

I hate the Chelsea model, it is with the explicit objective of profiting on young players, not actually developing them with the intent to play them.

I suspect we will go with a two/three tier approach.
1) Buy ready made quality for immediate impact
2) Buy almost-good-for-the-first-team quality, to develop in the short term (recently Foyth, NKoudou and Njie types I guess)
3) Buy for the academy for longer term development

This seems to make sense to me, and obviously how many you buy of each depends on the squad at the time and its needs.

Mahrez wasn’t out of the blue mate,let’s put it this way his talent was as known in the championship as Deles was in League One. I remember watching a few of Leicester’s Championship games and every time the pundits were going on about how he would take the PL by storm and I couldn’t argue with them watching him play even then. I think it would have been great to grab that Ndombele a year ago - would have given him 1-2 seasons to be integrated whilst Dembele played out his final seasons here and would have learnt a hell of a lot from him. Even getting him now could still argue the same, even if he’s more expensive would be great long term.

Whilst clearly not the be all and end all we were most definitely better in the market when we had a dof here, I accept we are potentially shopping in a different market now but still think we would benefit with one regardless, this summer of all summers....

Mahrez was a quality Championship player, Im not arguing he wasnt. Im saying the leap from there to here is astronimical and goes way beyond what people expected of him. It was clear he had ability, but wasnt clear he would even handle the transition - let alone step up his performances about 300%!

And, to replay that with us, we would have to have had him a couple of seasons before seeing that return - what are the chances?

NDobmele now comes with a year of football at the top level in France, invaluable experience and learning.
NDombele a year ago comes with minimal experience in the French lower leagues, what are the chances he develops the same way spending last season on our bench/loaned to Villa instead of being pivotal in that Lyon side?

And theres the difference. Getting NDombele before Lyon, there is no guarantee he develops the same way (if at all). Getting him now is entirely different.

The dof thing? Im not against it. I think Baldini in particular was good at getting deals done, but Im not convinced we had any better luck in identifying players - was always hit and miss.

 

[billyiddo]

Yes and no.

The argument currently revolves more around players of sufficient quality to improve us being expensive, established or not. Particularly in the current market.

Its easier to find "A Mahrez" when you are Leicester than when you have half an eye on the title. And remember - Mahrez's improvement came as a surprise to everyone, he wasnt anywhere near as good as now when they signed him.

We are in competition with Liverpool, Man Utd etc for players - but are no competition when it comes to finances.

While I would absolutely love to grab another Mahrez out of nowhere, I have to ask - what are the chances?

When was the last time top teams even managed that?

It goes to Pochs comments on youth, as the team improves the chances of youth coming in diminish, they have to be much better to break through. Id suggest a similar line of thought to taking punts on the like of NDombele.

Think about him - even now, from Lyon - he is something of a gamble. Clearly talented, but clearly raw - I dont know we can expect an immediate impact from him. Would there have been value in us looking at him a year ago, when he would have had less chance to play and develop? And been even more raw and inexperienced?

And theres the connundrum. Im all for bringing in and developing talent, but Im also of the opinion its needle-in-haystack stuff to find players that can come in and make immediate contributions, or even in the short-mid term, out of nowhere.

Im beginning to understand why the like of Utd would happily let talent move to mid table to play at a higher level and develop before picking them up, even if it does cost more.

To be clear - Im not arguing we shouldnt look at improving our scouting - it would be great to know we are not missing out on players. I just dont know that it will have the impact you seem to think. I think the team is such that the whole developing youth angle will take less precedence.

Regarding the point in bold - this is the crux of the issue, we are competing with sides we cannot go toe to toe with financially so we need to be smart, what we actually appear to be doing is trying to match them by way of signing established players at high cost - it doesn't really make sense to me.

With regards to needing the required established quality to improve i have to disagree - asides from CM we are srrong enough to compete this this season and can afford to invest time in players who may be more potential/need to adapt to the league

 

[DeleHarry]

Baldini was very good at getting deals done. He is the type of schmoozer you need, working with agents and clubs. It takes the pressure off the manager and the chairman or owner doesn't have to get involved until the very last stages.

What is our set up now? We don't have a dof, Mitchell has also gone without being replaced, it does seem like it's all down to Poch and Levy plus a few scouts.

 

[StephenH]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline

The Chelsea youth system will have a similar categorisation running through it, I bet.
But when nip comes to tuck these youngsters will not get past a William or Hazard purchase.
At least Chelsea is being pragmatic. That thinking may now start to be challenged with escalating prices of the elite player and more buyers.

The Reo Griffiths's of this world will be on the increase IMHO. This will raise question over top club youth management even more.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Regarding the point in bold - this is the crux of the issue, we are competing with sides we cannot go toe to toe with financially so we need to be smart, what we actually appear to be doing is trying to match them by way of signing established players at high cost - it doesn't really make sense to me.

With regards to needing the required established quality to improve i have to disagree - asides from CM we are srrong enough to compete this this season and can afford to invest time in players who may be more potential/need to adapt to the league

Well, its open to interpretation.

I agree, it is the crux of the issue. I disagree that we are explicitly trying to buy established and high cost players.

I think we are trying to get the best we can, simply, and have to be opportunistic about it.

Look at Moura, pure opportunism. Managed to get an incredibly highly rated player by virtue of his club being in a position of having to sell, already having a relationship in place, and seemingly little/no competition.


I do agree we can look to players to develop - but you must also recognise players are struggling for opportunity to get into this team as well.
Where is the benefit in buying NDombele a year ago, only to see him barely play, compared to buying him now?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline

The Chelsea youth system will have a similar categorisation running through it, I bet.
But when nip comes to tuck these youngsters will not get past a William or Hazard purchase.
At least Chelsea is being pragmatic. That thinking may now start to be challenged with escalating prices of the elite player and more buyers.

The Reo Griffiths's of this world will be on the increase IMHO. This will raise question over top club youth management even more.

Chelsea are nothing like us.

We might share some of the same issues, that come from being a high quality team and the challenges youth face, but we will never simply farm players. You only have to look at the scale at which Chelsea operate, its not even close to comparable.

 

[billyiddo]

Well, its open to interpretation.

I agree, it is the crux of the issue. I disagree that we are explicitly trying to buy established and high cost players.

I think we are trying to get the best we can, simply, and have to be opportunistic about it.

Look at Moura, pure opportunism. Managed to get an incredibly highly rated player by virtue of his club being in a position of having to sell, already having a relationship in place, and seemingly little/no competition.


I do agree we can look to players to develop - but you must also recognise players are struggling for opportunity to get into this team as well.
Where is the benefit in buying NDombele a year ago, only to see him barely play, compared to buying him now?

We actually get them in in a timely fashion rather than see them attract interest from richer clubs and soend the summer sitting on our arses hoping the player is still available?

 

[StephenH]

Chelsea are nothing like us.

We might share some of the same issues, that come from being a high quality team and the challenges youth face, but we will never simply farm players. You only have to look at the scale at which Chelsea operate, its not even close to comparable.

Historically I agree.

Today Chelsea though are being reigned in at an alarming (very pleasing) rate transfer wise.
I see Chelsea Spurs and Arsenal at around par now due to player price inflation. Chelsea's and Arsenal's slight edge will continue to be eroded. Let hope our extra stadium revenue speeds this.

 

[harr1984]

This really is the crux of it. The club are so tight lipped, all we know is that we havent bought anyone. Nothing more.

We dont know the clubs intentions, if there are deals underway, if deals are nearly done, if we are going round throwing money all over...

So people just fill the gap with their own paranoia.




I hate the Chelsea model, it is with the explicit objective of profiting on young players, not actually developing them with the intent to play them.

I suspect we will go with a two/three tier approach.
1) Buy ready made quality for immediate impact
2) Buy almost-good-for-the-first-team quality, to develop in the short term (recently Foyth, NKoudou and Njie types I guess)
3) Buy for the academy for longer term development

This seems to make sense to me, and obviously how many you buy of each depends on the squad at the time and its needs.




Mahrez was a quality Championship player, Im not arguing he wasnt. Im saying the leap from there to here is astronimical and goes way beyond what people expected of him. It was clear he had ability, but wasnt clear he would even handle the transition - let alone step up his performances about 300%!

And, to replay that with us, we would have to have had him a couple of seasons before seeing that return - what are the chances?

NDobmele now comes with a year of football at the top level in France, invaluable experience and learning.
NDombele a year ago comes with minimal experience in the French lower leagues, what are the chances he develops the same way spending last season on our bench/loaned to Villa instead of being pivotal in that Lyon side?

And theres the difference. Getting NDombele before Lyon, there is no guarantee he develops the same way (if at all). Getting him now is entirely different.

The dof thing? Im not against it. I think Baldini in particular was good at getting deals done, but Im not convinced we had any better luck in identifying players - was always hit and miss.

Solid PoV and nothing there id consider worth debating....

 

[Bedfordspurs]

We need to reinvest every season or we risk the impetus gained over the past years.

Reinvesting does include improved contracts for staff and players based on their performance though

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

We actually get them in in a timely fashion rather than see them attract interest from richer clubs and soend the summer sitting on our arses hoping the player is still available?

That ignores the point on a players development.

NDombele today is very attractive to us because he spent a year playing in Lyons first team, IMO. Had we bought him a year ago, do you think he would have developed similarly? I dont, I dont think he would havehad the opportunity to play anywhere near as much and as such would have had a more stunted growth.

And THATS the catch.

Historically I agree.

Today Chelsea though are being reigned in at an alarming (very pleasing) rate transfer wise.
I see Chelsea Spurs and Arsenal at around par now due to player price inflation. Chelsea's and Arsenal's slight edge will continue to be eroded. Let hope our extra stadium revenue speeds this.

While Im all for Chelsea getting fudged, and us over taking them - and agree they seem to be in a transition transfer wise - I wont be changing my views on their attitude to young players until it demonstrably changes.

Until then, they are as they were, exploitative of the loan market, farming young players for profit with no intent of playing them.

 

[StephenH]

Reinvesting does include improved contracts for staff and players based on their performance though

Yep.
But a couple of good signings is like recharging the optimism drive on the good ship Tottenham Hotspurs.