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Son Heung-Min

so what case is it Scara?.... Contract law? Spurs would have no leg to stand on unless Son's current THFC contract has a clause is in it where Son has agreed to forgo his military service or postpone it until some random date in the future. As long as Son fulfils his contract with THFC then we have no grounds to sue him for breach of contract. Him performing Military Service after his contract at Spurs has ended is in no way a breach of his contract at Spurs.
Tort law.

I didn't realise this was such a difficult concept, but seeing as there are three intelligent posters (you, @r-u-s-x and @90291Spur ) all missing the point, I'll assume I'm failing to explain properly (something quite common for me) and step through from the start.

Firstly though, please ignore contract law, employment law, Bosman, etc. This is tort law, entirely separate and almost always judged on merits once a few hurdles are passed (meaning it's worth doing, or usually enough to force the other party to change their actions).

So, the initial hurdles we have to show are (1)that Son owes us a duty of care, (2)that he took or omitted actions and (3)that those (in)actions have harmed us. Once you're past those hurdles, a judge will decide (4)if it is fair, just and reasonable to impose liability.

(1) Is simple. Son is an employee, and as such owes us a duty of care. There are caveats imposed on the claimant here, so that employees are able to go about their day to day duties without fear of getting sued for every mistake. If the actions are within the usual course of their employment then negligence is required to get past this hurdle, and only then, IIRC, in cases such as physical harm. This isn't in the scope of his normal duties, this is something else entirely.

This one is pretty simple - there's a duty of care.

(2) is reasonably clear and can be made clearer by the club officially asking Son to postpone or skip his service. It's obvious that there's an action (setting a date to start the service) or an ommision (failing to take simple steps to avoid service).

(3) is the easiest to show of the lot. Son has a market value that is reasonably easy to measure. We would need to show that without his actions (or ommisions) that loss wouldn't occur. As I stated earlier, the vast majority of footballers at his stage of career do not run out their contracts - especially not from 3 years out. Our inability to sell him is a clear economic loss and his action/inaction has both contributed to the loss and been outside the scope of his employment.

(4) is the only point where the case is uncertain. That would depend entirely on the judge and how the cases were presented. That's of less importance though because in almost every case, if the first three hurdles are passed, the two sides end up settling out of court. I've never been involved in that part of the process, so I can't speculate on how it would go. The very worst case is that we would end up recouping some of the money we're losing on Son.

This is all in the opinion of a layman, but this is how the law has been explained to me by someone who very much isn't. The people I hire to do this kind of work do this all the time and are always successful for us.
 
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fudge me it's not hard I will put it in a couple of sentences regardless of national service.

A player is worth market value or zero depending on if he decides to be sold.

The player has full control whether he can be sold whilst under contract.


Do you disagree with any of the above if so why if not all the tort law stuff is irrelevant (club can retrieve value of 0). There are no damages because depending on the players decision and his only he is worth 0 for resale at any point in his contract .
 
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Haven’t read all this Son stuff, what’s happened?
My
Tort law.

I didn't realise this was such a difficult concept, but seeing as there are three intelligent posters (you, @r-u-s-x and @90291Spur ) all missing the point, I'll assume I'm failing to explain properly (something quite common for me) and step through from the start.

Firstly though, please ignore contract law, employment law, Bosman, etc. This is tort law, entirely separate and almost always judged on merits once a few hurdles are passed (meaning it's worth doing, or usually enough to force the other party to change their actions).

So, the initial hurdles we have to show are (1)that Son owes us a duty of care, (2)that he took or omitted actions and (3)that those (in)actions have harmed us. Once you're past those hurdles, a judge will decide (4)if it is fair, just and reasonable to impose liability.

(1) Is simple. Son is an employee, and as such owes us a duty of care. There are caveats imposed on the claimant here, so that employees are able to go about their day to day duties without fear of getting sued for every mistake. If the actions are within the usual course of their employment then negligence is required to get past this hurdle, and only then, IIRC, in cases such as physical harm. This isn't in the scope of his normal duties, this is something else entirely.

This one is pretty simple - there's a duty of care.

(2) is reasonably clear and can be made clearer by the club officially asking Son to postpone or skip his service. It's obvious that there's an action (setting a date to start the service) or an ommision (failing to take simple steps to avoid service).

(3) is the easiest to show of the lot. Son has a market value that is reasonably easy to measure. We would need to show that without his actions (or ommisions) that loss wouldn't occur. As I stated earlier, the vast majority of footballers at his stage of career do not run out their contracts - especially not from 3 years out. Our inability to sell him is a clear economic loss and his action/inaction has both contributed to the loss and been outside the scope of his employment.

(4) is the only point where the case is uncertain. That would depend entirely on the judge and how the cases were presented. That's of less importance though because in almost every case, if the first three hurdles are passed, the two sides end up settling out of court. I've never been involved in that part of the process, so I can't speculate on how it would go. The very worst case is that we would end up recouping some of the money we're losing on Son.

This is all in the opinion of a layman, but this is how the law has been explained to me by someone who very much isn't. The people I hire to do this kind of work do this all the time and are always successful for us.
Every Players resale value is 0 if they choose it to be so, there are no losses

How much is Harry kane worth? 200m if he chooses to let him be sold or 0 if he does not . It's that simple
 
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My

Every Players resale value is 0 if they choose it to be so, there are no losses

How much is Harry kane worth? 200m if he chooses to let him be sold or 0 if he does not . It's that simple
The actions relating to the loss are not him choosing not to be sold. The actions relating to the loss are his deciding to go and complete his military service.

Once that's established, the only relevance of him seeing out his contract comes from comparing what is normal and reasonable in this situation. It is absolutely not normal for a 25yo footballer in the Premier League with 3 years on his contract to both refuse to be sold and refuse a new contract for a full 3 years - if there are any they are huge outliers.
 
But Bosman says he has the choice regardless of the reasons
That's not how it works.

When deciding whether an action has caused harm, it has to be analysed independently. So the question isn't "Did Son choose to go on military service after running his contract down?" or "Did Son choose to go on military service after refusing to be sold to another club?", the question is merely "Did Son choose to go on military service?" (I'm conflating action and omission here to keep it short).

The answer to that is clearly yes - especially so if we encourage Son to use the technique I specified earlier in the thread.

That then leads us to the measure of damage - and that's where your suggestion of running down a contract comes in. But it's not a question of "Could Son have run down his contract?" - of course he could. This is an unrelated action and isn't required to show (2) that there was an (in)action. The question in this case is "Under normal circumstances, if (in)action (2) were not there, would a normal player run down their contract from this point (3 years)?" The obvious answer to that is No.
 
No it's right, he gets to choose whet to sign or leave on a free. That is the ruling, every player is worth 0 unless he chooses to be sold

Simplify for you, show me any law or example where a player has not been able to exercise his right to fulfil his contract and move on for any reason.
 
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No it's right, he gets to choose whet to sign or leave on a free. That is the ruling, every player is worth 0 unless he chooses to be sold
That's really not how this works. That is not his action that has led to harm - I can show you how the two are separate because they can happen independently of each other. Son could delay his military service and then let his contract run down, for example. That shows that they are two actions and not one, so when evaluating the action that caused harm, you do not consider the other.

In terms of a player's value being 0 unless they choose to be sold, not only is it irrelevant, it's also ridiculous. Every player that was bought for and/or re-signed for either a fee or a signing bonus will have a value in a team's accounts. That value is allowed to be amortised over the length of the contract, but has a value - that's the minimum he can be worth. Then there's the market value - that's the top end of what he's worth. His actual value would be decided to be somewhere in between the two.

Returning to my analogy of an employee driving a forklift into some expensive plant. A judge wouldn't use the assumption that the plant was worthless because three years down the line there might be a fire that rendered it worthless, she would use the usual case. What is that plant worth in the market? Under normal conditions, can that plant be sold for value? Had the plant not been damaged, could it have been used for economic gain? etc.

So it doesn't matter that Son could run his contract down to nothing, because the measure in this case is the normal situation as it would apply, if you took this event (the action or inaction that lead to loss) out of the equation. If you take that out of the equation, no normal person would expect Son to run his contract down, or refuse to sign for another club for a full 3 years.
 
That's really not how this works. That is not his action that has led to harm - I can show you how the two are separate because they can happen independently of each other. Son could delay his military service and then let his contract run down, for example. That shows that they are two actions and not one, so when evaluating the action that caused harm, you do not consider the other.

In terms of a player's value being 0 unless they choose to be sold, not only is it irrelevant, it's also ridiculous. Every player that was bought for and/or re-signed for either a fee or a signing bonus will have a value in a team's accounts. That value is allowed to be amortised over the length of the contract, but has a value - that's the minimum he can be worth. Then there's the market value - that's the top end of what he's worth. His actual value would be decided to be somewhere in between the two.

Returning to my analogy of an employee driving a forklift into some expensive plant.
That must be a rare orchid. Am I right about that at least?
 
That's really not how this works. That is not his action that has led to harm - I can show you how the two are separate because they can happen independently of each other. Son could delay his military service and then let his contract run down, for example. That shows that they are two actions and not one, so when evaluating the action that caused harm, you do not consider the other.

In terms of a player's value being 0 unless they choose to be sold, not only is it irrelevant, it's also ridiculous. Every player that was bought for and/or re-signed for either a fee or a signing bonus will have a value in a team's accounts. That value is allowed to be amortised over the length of the contract, but has a value - that's the minimum he can be worth. Then there's the market value - that's the top end of what he's worth. His actual value would be decided to be somewhere in between the two.

Returning to my analogy of an employee driving a forklift into some expensive plant. A judge wouldn't use the assumption that the plant was worthless because three years down the line there might be a fire that rendered it worthless, she would use the usual case. What is that plant worth in the market? Under normal conditions, can that plant be sold for value? Had the plant not been damaged, could it have been used for economic gain? etc.

So it doesn't matter that Son could run his contract down to nothing, because the measure in this case is the normal situation as it would apply, if you took this event (the action or inaction that lead to loss) out of the equation. If you take that out of the equation, no normal person would expect Son to run his contract down, or refuse to sign for another club for a full 3 years.
So you can't... And I have shown examples where players have exercised the right.

Deep breath
 
So you can't... And I have shown examples where players have exercised the right.

Deep breath
I don't need to - you simply don't understand the process of a tort. Let me try and break this down a bit more simply.

In measuring the damage of an action, it must be compared to a normal situation had that action never taken place. So in this case you have to completely ignore the military service bit. You also have to completely ignore outliers and strange occurrences, this is under normal conditions.

On that basis, if the military service thing didn't exist, and we tried to sell Son in the summer, the overwhelmingly likely result of that would be that we would sell him and that we would sell him for £10Ms. That is the measure that would be used in court for valuation. Not maybe if this, or possibly if that, it's the most likely scenario in that situation. As you well know, clubs try to sell players all the time and the overwhelming majority of those situations result in players being sold - especially at Son's age with a long contract in front of him. Maybe not on first offer, maybe not for the value they wanted, but the end result is almost always a sale once a club has decided to make it happen.

I'm not disputing that Son could choose to run down his contract if he wished, the point I'm making is that it doesn't come into consideration when evaluating the harm in a tort.
 
There is 0 requirement for son to consider his value to Tottenham when making his contract decisions, if you think otherwise you are wrong
 
There is 0 requirement for son to consider his value to Tottenham when making his contract decisions,
This isn't about his contract, we wouldn't bring a case under employment law. That would be stupid because as an employer we have virtually no protection there.

if you think otherwise you are wrong
I could just as easily keep repeating that I have a 12" rooster with the girth of a Coke can. Wouldn't make it any more true.
 
I have provided many examples where players decide not to sign contracts while you keep parroting tort
I've explained to you how tort law works. That has nothing whatsoever to do with his contract with us. Neither does it have anything to do with any of your examples, because they are all based on rulings under employment law.

You might as well produce me example of people being prosecuted for not correctly reporting their VAT - it is not the method under which we would go to court.

I can't break that down any more simply. I can only assume you're refusing to listen because it doesn't get much simpler that the level to which I've explained this.
 
You are missing a big point there are no losses.

How much was barkley worth to Everton in the summer? 30m as this was what Chelsea off or 0 which they actually got
 
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