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Son Heung-Min

Baleforce said:
There were a lot of times yesterday when it was Sons fault we weren’t creating anything imo, he turned the ball over every single time he touched it in the first half hour.

He has games where he’s a liability, too many of them to warrant playing every minute of every game without it being questioned.
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I mean is there anyone forwards in world football (other than messi and Ronaldo) who this doesn’t apply? Don’t think anyone is advocating he plays every minute of every game. There are certainly times after international breaks where he could use a rest. Or if it’s not happening for him then take him off. Just not buying that Bergwijn should be starting games regularly ahead of him when his time here has showed little to warrant that bar the odd winning goal despite what stats people throw out about him scoring more goals per minute than Son, it’s hardly a like for like comparison as Son has played more so it’s a smaller sample size for Bergwijn.
 
harr1984 said:
As soon as Kulu came here he was starting games because he was a Conte signing. Bergwijn can’t make himself undroppable with five minutes from the bench each time. Absolutely agree Son has provided more than just goals and when on form he is brilliant. But I am not having it that throughout a 38 league game season there are not times when Bergwijn could have started and played at least an hour due to Son (or Kane) form or fatigue as Son plays a hell of a lot of football for us plus international games and all the travel that involves being that it’s Korea is a lot more than the average international. We are not going to get a better backup than Bergwijn and people always question why don’t we sign a striker - well what is the point because Kane and Son get played literally every game regardless of fatigue or form and anyone worth their salt is not going to put up with that….
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It helps that Kulusevski is a Conte signing but he’s done way more than Bergwijn in a short space of time, surely you can see that? Not just goals either, he’s provided for Son and Kane too. He’s a very intelligent player.

I think in the end it comes down to how highly we both rate Bergwijn. It’s clear you rate him a lot higher than I do, I certainly don’t buy that we couldn’t get a better backup than him.

And I don’t disagree that Son and Kane shouldn’t be playing every minute of every game, especially after international breaks. My point is we don’t have the quality on the bench to replace them without there being significant drop off. One poster in particular keeps calling Son useless despite scoring 17 league goals with 6 games less to go. I think that speaks volumes that a player who is apparently useless but still has more goals than anyone else other than Salah. In a bad year Son still gets 10+ league goals. If we had other players on the bench capable of scoring frequently then I’d be all for giving Son a rest, but we don’t. I’m a big fan of Moura, but he’s been here long enough for me to see that he’s not good enough to start for us on a consistent basis. Same applies to Bergwijn.
 
Jurgen the German said:
But once again, if you sub them off who scores our goals? Kulusevski is the only other player who has showed any kind of goalscoring form. Everyone bigs up Bergwijn because he scored a couple against Leicester but he’s really not showed anything consistent in terms of goals. We need better players to challenge the likes of Kane and Son so we can haul them off earlier if they are having a stinker. Shall we bench both of them for the last 6 games and see how many goals and points we pick up?
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Can you please let me know what is Bergwijn longest run in the team? How can any players get to consistent goal scoring form if they don’t have a proper run in the team due to the managers refusing to drop star players who have been brick?
 
90291Spur said:
Every touch? Dramatic much? Clearly you are not a fan of Kane and Son and our reliance/over reliance on them.
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I am a fan when they are playing well but i am not one of these fans that bury my head in the sand when it comes to criticism of a player who has been brick. On their day Son and Kane are very good but when they have been properly brick most fans refuse to acknowledge it and thats what i have been going on about.
 
Yiddo said:
I am a fan when they are playing well but i am not one of these fans that bury my head in the sand when it comes to criticism of a player who has been brick. On their day Son and Kane are very good but when they have been properly brick most fans refuse to acknowledge it and thats what i have been going on about.
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He scored a hat trick last week and you said he wasn’t very good or that his goalscoring form was masking poor performances?
 
Yiddo said:
Can you please let me know what is Bergwijn longest run in the team? How can any players get to consistent goal scoring form if they don’t have a proper run in the team due to the managers refusing to drop star players who have been brick?
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I have no idea. Maybe there is a reason why managers don’t pick him more often. He has 7 goals in 56 league appearances. Albeit quite a lot of them weren’t starts, but I’m sorry I just don’t see it as some great injustice that he hasn’t played more often. For the record, I would have brought him on before Moura but what exactly are you saying Conte should have done? Son has been on fire in terms of goalscoring form, are you saying Conte should start Bergwijn because Son had one bad game yesterday? You literally couldn’t wait to come on here and tell everyone I told you so before the game finished and highlight he had a bad game, but when he scores a hat trick he’s still been brick? Not exactly very balanced. I have a feeling he could score 5 and you’d still find something to criticise him for.
 
Jurgen the German said:
It helps that Kulusevski is a Conte signing but he’s done way more than Bergwijn in a short space of time, surely you can see that? Not just goals either, he’s provided for Son and Kane too. He’s a very intelligent player.

I think in the end it comes down to how highly we both rate Bergwijn. It’s clear you rate him a lot higher than I do, I certainly don’t buy that we couldn’t get a better backup than him.

And I don’t disagree that Son and Kane shouldn’t be playing every minute of every game, especially after international breaks. My point is we don’t have the quality on the bench to replace them without there being significant drop off. One poster in particular keeps calling Son useless despite scoring 17 league goals with 6 games less to go. I think that speaks volumes that a player who is apparently useless but still has more goals than anyone else other than Salah. In a bad year Son still gets 10+ league goals. If we had other players on the bench capable of scoring frequently then I’d be all for giving Son a rest, but we don’t. I’m a big fan of Moura, but he’s been here long enough for me to see that he’s not good enough to start for us on a consistent basis. Same applies to Bergwijn.
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Of course he’s done more, Kulu starts every game whereas Bergwijn gets the last five minutes if used at all:D

We are talking about starting Bergwijn for the occasional game, against selected opposition to give Kane/Son a much needed rest. You say he’s not shown he’s worthy, he simply hasn’t been given a chance to. Every example you bring up is of players who have actually had a decent run in the side - Son, Moura, Kulu. The only time Bergwijn has for us was under Jose when he had to perform a very defensive role for us. If you don’t think that Bergwijn is good enough to be given a game here and there against at the very least some bottom half of the table sides then you are right we are miles apart in terms of how we rate him. I’m not saying he’s a world beater but I’ve seen enough games of his to know that he has enough technical ability to produce if given decent minutes against PL opposition. He would chip in with a fair few goals if given decent minutes, for Conte to constantly bring him on with five minutes to go is pointless and I doubt Bergwijn is finding this enjoyable at all, and he will look to leave in the summer which we don’t need considering we will be in Europe fighting in different cups and would need him….
 
harr1984 said:
He has started four PL games (not interested in cup games as we play under strength teams and constantly churn out poor performances) and most of those were under Nuno when we were super defensive. He hasn’t had a decent crack under Conte…..
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So under Jose he was played in a defensive role and under Nuno the tactics were negative. It’s not like he played in goal under Jose mate :D
 
harr1984 said:
Of course he’s done more, Kulu starts every game whereas Bergwijn gets the last five minutes if used at all:D

We are talking about starting Bergwijn for the occasional game, against selected opposition to give Kane/Son a much needed rest. You say he’s not shown he’s worthy, he simply hasn’t been given a chance to. Every example you bring up is of players who have actually had a decent run in the side - Son, Moura, Kulu. The only time Bergwijn has for us was under Jose when he had to perform a very defensive role for us. If you don’t think that Bergwijn is good enough to be given a game here and there against at the very least some bottom half of the table sides then you are right we are miles apart in terms of how we rate him. I’m not saying he’s a world beater but I’ve seen enough games of his to know that he has enough technical ability to produce if given decent minutes against PL opposition. He would chip in with a fair few goals if given decent minutes, for Conte to constantly bring him on with five minutes to go is pointless and I doubt Bergwijn is finding this enjoyable at all, and he will look to leave in the summer which we don’t need considering we will be in Europe fighting in different cups and would need him….
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Are you honestly saying you can’t see the difference between Kulusevski and Bergwijn? :D Bergwijn got a debut goal when Jose was here but he’s been quite underwhelming when he has started until Conte came in and he has looked more effective but even then it’s not like he’s a world class player and we are lucky to have him. I’d like to keep him but if he wants more playing time and we can’t give it to him and he has to leave then so be it.
 
Jurgen the German said:
Are you honestly saying you can’t see the difference between Kulusevski and Bergwijn? :D Bergwijn got a debut goal when Jose was here but he’s been quite underwhelming when he has started until Conte came in and he has looked more effective but even then it’s not like he’s a world class player and we are lucky to have him. I’d like to keep him but if he wants more playing time and we can’t give it to him and he has to leave then so be it.
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Are you saying they have been playing the same position?
 
Jurgen the German said:
They are not like for like, but Kulusevski looks more threatening, more creative and seems to have built up a rapport very quickly with Kane and Son.
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Kulu is class but he has taken Moura position. Massive upgrade there
We have only seen Stevie played as a striker under Conte which actually has been effective when given time as he impacts games. that for me is him coming in for son which is how the subs have aligned
 
Jurgen the German said:
He scored a hat trick last week and you said he wasn’t very good or that his goalscoring form was masking poor performances?
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Yes and i stand by that, just because he scored a few goals and in big wins doesn’t mean i was happy with his overall performance. Look back and you will see what i said, other than shooting the rest of his game is brick.
 
Yiddo said:
Yes and i stand by that, just because he scored a few goals and in big wins doesn’t mean i was happy with his overall performance. Look back and you will see what i said, other than shooting the rest of his game is brick.
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So essentially there is nothing he can do to please you. Fair enough.
 
Yiddo said:
Yes there is, improve his overall game, if he doesn’t score he has games like he did on Saturday. There is alot more to football than just goal scoring.
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He has improved his game. He got 10 assists in the league for the last two seasons and has 6 this season. To criticise a player’s overall game after scoring a hat trick is harsh to say the least and I’d say it’s not being objective. The first goal wasn’t exactly an easy finish either, on his weak foot, outside the area, on the volley. If all three goals were tap ins or if they were the last goals in a 6-0 rout then I’d say you may have a point but they were all excellent finishes and I don’t recall him missing any other chances either.
 
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