So many areas of concern --where to start?

[braineclipse]

Sorry mate, if Poch thinks Dembele is the answer to anything other than brainless football I have even more concerns about him.

Poch clearly has concerns about Dembele, and that's why he hasn't been playing much. But he gives us energy and effort and he wins duels. He helped us turn the game in the second half today. Bringing him on to win the midfield a bit better for the first 15 with the plan that he could drop deeper to replace Capoue with us bringing on Ade when Stoke somewhat predictably retreated further back as they tired a bit and the second half wore on makes sense to me.

Our problem in the first half wasn't that we didn't have players that can pass, shoot, move, dribble etc. It was that they weren't working as a team. Dembele is a team player, he's fairly dependable, a diligent worker. A bit like Lennon in that regard.

 

[indianspur]

Who would take a 14th placed finish and a Europa League win?

Of course.....but most likely we will finish 12th and lose in the EL last 16

 

[Jurgen the German]

Who would take a 14th placed finish and a Europa League win?

We have NO CHANCE of winning the Europa. You have to be able to defend to win any European competition. I would be delighted with the league cup but the FA cup would be pheonomal.

 

[the dza]

Poch clearly has concerns about Dembele, and that's why he hasn't been playing much. But he gives us energy and effort and he wins duels. He helped us turn the game in the second half today. Bringing him on to win the midfield a bit better for the first 15 with the plan that he could drop deeper to replace Capoue with us bringing on Ade when Stoke somewhat predictably retreated further back as they tired a bit and the second half wore on makes sense to me.

Our problem in the first half wasn't that we didn't have players that can pass, shoot, move, dribble etc. It was that they weren't working as a team. Dembele is a team player, he's fairly dependable, a diligent worker. A bit like Lennon in that regard.

We must have been watching a different game, coz all I saw of Dembele was him give the ball away by being caught in possession and getting bypassed defensively. I think he might have been the worst player on the pitch and he really had to go some for that.

 

[braineclipse]

We must have been watching a different game, coz all I saw of Dembele was him give the ball away by being caught in possession and getting bypassed defensively. I think he might have been the worst player on the pitch and he really had to go some for that.

Did you actually read my post? Where did I say anything about him being good on the ball today? Didn't I say in my first sentence that Poch clearly has concerns about Dembele?

What I talked about in my post was him being a team player, being dependable, diligent. Just re-read my own post to be sure, but I honestly don't think I could have been much clearer...

As a quick reference point: http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/829622/LiveStatistics/England-Premier-League-2014-2015-Tottenham-Stoke

Dembele totalled 4 tackles in 45 minutes today. Townsend, Eriksen, Kane, Chadli and Lamela totaled 3 between them all game (that's a total of 315 minutes played between them).

Like I also said in my post, we didn't lack players that can pass, shoot, move, dribble etc. We had that, but they weren't working together as a unit, as a team. Dembele helped sort that out, despite him obviously having a poor game on the ball most of the half.

 

[Cochise]

System
----------------
The big question at the time of Poch's appointment was whether or not we had the right players for his system. Back then I thought we did (apart from 2-3 signings), it seems that we are actually a long way off that. I do think that we don't help ourselves by making the pitch smaller than it needs to be. The Arsenal system was a one off, designed for the counter attack. Personally I'd hate to see us play like that every week. All in all I'd prefer to see us go back to basics with a 433 that provides the defence with a real screen.


Recruitment
-------------------
I'd echo elltrev's post about the 2012 Champions League final. Our best players wanted that more than anything and when Chelsea nicked it I also thought we'd be in the **** for it. It was however the 2013 5th place which was ultimately the problem. Look at Liverpool's purchases this year after the Suarez sale. Yes they aren't doing great but most of them are proven quality. Us?? We had to sell Bale and then purchase players who would be happy coming to a club outside of the Champions League. People may think that signing a couple of £30-£40 million players was the answer, but what top players would do that without either massive wages or UCL football??

We are forced to do what we do because it's the only hope we have. It just means we have to ride out the learning curves of the young players we have and hope they come good.

Mentality
---------------------
Young players + no natural leaders. Kaboul always took his cue's from King and was never in charge of the team nor the defence. The spine of Friedel, King, Parker and VdV was both strong technically and mentally and they were also experienced. Modric came into his own in his last season, but really only Bale and Walker were the youngsters learning their trade. Now we have perhaps 3-4 old heads in the starting XI, and that's including Ade whose mental fortitude has always been in question since his Arsenal days.

First purchase in January for me is that man in midfield who will kick the others into gear.

 

[elltrev]

System
----------------
The big question at the time of Poch's appointment was whether or not we had the right players for his system. Back then I thought we did (apart from 2-3 signings), it seems that we are actually a long way off that. I do think that we don't help ourselves by making the pitch smaller than it needs to be. The Arsenal system was a one off, designed for the counter attack. Personally I'd hate to see us play like that every week. All in all I'd prefer to see us go back to basics with a 433 that provides the defence with a real screen.


Recruitment
-------------------
I'd echo elltrev's post about the 2012 Champions League final. Our best players wanted that more than anything and when Chelsea nicked it I also thought we'd be in the **** for it. It was however the 2013 5th place which was ultimately the problem. Look at Liverpool's purchases this year after the Suarez sale. Yes they aren't doing great but most of them are proven quality. Us?? We had to sell Bale and then purchase players who would be happy coming to a club outside of the Champions League. People may think that signing a couple of £30-£40 million players was the answer, but what top players would do that without either massive wages or UCL football??

We are forced to do what we do because it's the only hope we have. It just means we have to ride out the learning curves of the young players we have and hope they come good.

Mentality
---------------------
Young players + no natural leaders. Kaboul always took his cue's from King and was never in charge of the team nor the defence. The spine of Friedel, King, Parker and VdV was both strong technically and mentally and they were also experienced. Modric came into his own in his last season, but really only Bale and Walker were the youngsters learning their trade. Now we have perhaps 3-4 old heads in the starting XI, and that's including Ade whose mental fortitude has always been in question since his Arsenal days.

First purchase in January for me is that man in midfield who will kick the others into gear.

Nice post.

When Redknapp was sacked it was allegedly partly because his signings were too far towards the end of the 'dependable' end of the [potential---dependability] spectrum - older Premier League players who had little sell-on value. But I think we've now swung to the other end of the spectrum by only buying younger foreign players, and indeed managers! E.g. why buy Fazio, Dier and Chriches when Lescott would have been perfect alongside Vertonghen? Virtually our entire squad comprises young players who are new to the team and the country, and it's been managed by 3 managers who are also young and very new to the PL. Given how high the club and fans' expectations are, despite losing 4 world class players within 14 months of each other, this was always going to be a massive risk.

 

[Yiddo]

Nice post.

When Redknapp was sacked it was allegedly partly because his signings were too far towards the end of the 'dependable' end of the [potential---dependability] spectrum - older Premier League players who had little sell-on value. But I think we've now swung to the other end of the spectrum by only buying younger foreign players, and indeed managers! E.g. why buy Fazio, Dier and Chriches when Lescott would have been perfect alongside Vertonghen? Virtually our entire squad comprises young players who are new to the team and the country, and it's been managed by 3 managers who are also young and very new to the PL. Given how high the club and fans' expectations are, despite losing 4 world class players within 14 months of each other, this was always going to be a massive risk.

Redknapp was sacked days after admitting on the BBC that he would have taken the England job if offered. This is imo the reason he was sacked.

 

[ringo]

We have NO CHANCE of winning the Europa. You have to be able to defend to win any European competition. I would be delighted with the league cup but the FA cup would be pheonomal.

Especially as Emirates Marketing Project will be in the competition soon presumably.

 

[Andyandy]

System
----------------
The big question at the time of Poch's appointment was whether or not we had the right players for his system. Back then I thought we did (apart from 2-3 signings), it seems that we are actually a long way off that. I do think that we don't help ourselves by making the pitch smaller than it needs to be. The Arsenal system was a one off, designed for the counter attack. Personally I'd hate to see us play like that every week. All in all I'd prefer to see us go back to basics with a 433 that provides the defence with a real screen.

Van Gaal said it will take 3 years to get utd back on track. It also applies to us.

One issue we have is that we've picked our coach now, a coach whom plays in a style which doesn't suit the players. He must now find a way to play which does suit the players and move toward his philosophy. A real challenge because I would say that it's not really clear what our actual strengths really are.

I also say that our PL and Europa league teams are both of equal quality which is a serious problem because it means we have 18-20 average players, good enough the play PL but not much more.

I would have preferred a more experienced coach but we have to stick with him, move on the deadwood and wait it out.

 

[Andyandy]

Redknapp was sacked days after admitting on the BBC that he would have taken the England job if offered. This is imo the reason he was sacked.

Yep, he got himself sacked. What was odd was how he didnt see what he was giving up was bigger than the England job.

 

[AdamB]

Who would take a 14th placed finish and a Europa League win?

Definitely

 

[ringo]

1. Assess squad:

Full backs: Walker (injured)/Yedlin (unproven) Naughton/Davies. Bring back BAE. Preferred Naughton/Davies
CBs: Fazio/Dier/Kaboul/Chirches/Verts. Pref Dier/Verts
Defensive midfielders: Stambouli/Capoue. Pref Stambouli
In between midfielders: Dembele/Mason/Bentaleb/Eriksen. Pref Eriksen/Mason (although they are all acceptable)
Wide midfielders/attackers: Rose/Lennon/Townsend. Pref Lennon, Rose
Central attacking midfielders: Lamela. Pref. ???
Forwards: Kane/Ade/Soldado: Pref. Kane/Soldado together.
Undecided: Chadli

2. Decide on stock formation:
4-2-3-1 -- no as we don't have a #10, a lone striker, or two suitable defensive midfielders.
4-4-2 --possibly as we have players for all positions
4-3-3 -- possibly as we have players for all positions.

3. Pick team accordingly and keep playing the players in the proper positions.

 

[Jurgen the German]

Van Gaal said it will take 3 years to get utd back on track. It also applies to us.

One issue we have is that we've picked our coach now, a coach whom plays in a style which doesn't suit the players. He must now find a way to play which does suit the players and move toward his philosophy. A real challenge because I would say that it's not really clear what our actual strengths really are.

I also say that our PL and Europa league teams are both of equal quality which is a serious problem because it means we have 18-20 average players, good enough the play PL but not much more.

I would have preferred a more experienced coach but we have to stick with him, move on the deadwood and wait it out.

I completely agree, we have wasted the money we got for Gareth Bale and it will set us back 2-3 years minimum. But do you really think Levy is that patient?

 

[supie]

Lots and lots of things behind the shambles that is the club today; however at its most basic level we have players who are not good enough and who are made to even look worse by the system we are deploying. Poch's got to show what he is made of now and focus on getting results which may mean binning his pressing 4-2-3-1 for a while and varying things up. Can he do it? I hope so; however it will be a huge test of him.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[paxtonwolf]

Who would take a 14th placed finish and a Europa League win?

Everybody would I should think, unfortunately there is no chance we will win the EL.

A more likley scenario is a 14th placed finish and League Cup win, which by the way I would still take, hell I would take 16th and a LC win.

 

[ALtottenham_hotspur]

Van Gaal said it will take 3 years to get utd back on track. It also applies to us.

One issue we have is that we've picked our coach now, a coach whom plays in a style which doesn't suit the players. He must now find a way to play which does suit the players and move toward his philosophy. A real challenge because I would say that it's not really clear what our actual strengths really are.

I also say that our PL and Europa league teams are both of equal quality which is a serious problem because it means we have 18-20 average players, good enough the play PL but not much more.

I would have preferred a more experienced coach but we have to stick with him, move on the deadwood and wait it out.

I couldnt agree more with you Andyandy

If POCH wants to stay in this job he has to change the system short term until he gets his players in. Im fully behind POCH I think this lot of players are a joke too many just want to collect their wages. My real concern is POCH only knows one way of playing. Southampton fans big criticism of him was he didnt have a plan b. If this is true i fear for POCH

 

[Raziel]

I couldnt agree more with you Andyandy

If POCH wants to stay in this job he has to change the system short term until he gets his players in. Im fully behind POCH I think this lot of players are a joke too many just want to collect their wages. My real concern is POCH only knows one way of playing. Southampton fans big criticism of him was he didnt have a plan b. If this is true i fear for POCH

The consensus from Southampton fans was

- only knew one way to play (no plan B)
- had favorite players (vs. making form/fit choices)

both seem to be haunting him right now, and really unfortunately it has that all too familiar Spurs manager in his death spiral feel about it.

 

[lurker of old]

It is hard to know where to start: the worst mess since pre Martin Jol days?
One problem today was that Poch was far too ambitious, filling the midfield with attacking players, and providing no screen in front of the defence. You look back to the steel we had with Sandro and Dembele together... and now? Porous, powderpuff midfield. Players like Lamela, who have no idea what a tackle is. Another problem is our lack of pace and width - unfortunately Lennon's pace is gone and he is is no longer a viable option.
A home defeat to Everton is looking likely. What then? Go begging to Tony Pulis to come and save us? Another poster made the excellent point that combining a youthful squad with an inexperienced manager is not a recipe for success, in such an unforgiving league. It is bizarre that the Board think buying so many players who are new to this league will pay off. My heart says keep Poch for the long haul. My head says that another home defeat will undermine whatever authority he has with the players, and he will be history. HR knew that you need the odd senior player - the Scott Parkers of this world. We have gone back 10 years in my opinion.

 

[Yossarian]

Baldini. Get rid ASAP.