Set Pieces

[thfcsteff]

I do not recognise where you get 6 goals from corners ( still less 10 last year). I prefer to rely on my own eyes. I note you haven't tried to identify these 6 goals. As you well know, statistics can be extremely misleading.

I don't get why you guys obstinately refuse to admit we are lousy at corners and improvement in this area would be most welcome. It is these small margins which can be the difference between success and failure. I don't want to see us continue to be bridesmaids. I would suggest a significant improvement in our conversion rate from corners will give us a significant competitive edge. I fail to see how anyone can think otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Here's the thing.
Of the nine points, of all the comments passed by you on corners, we could replace the word 'corner'
with another potential chance avenue we are perhaps not at 100% with. How many one on ones do we miss? Could we not improve that? Do the coaching staff not work on that? What about productivity from indirect free-kicks? The point is that with 100 goals scored ths season, something pretty special is being worked in training. We have scored more goals from open play outside the box than any other Prem side and conceded less goals than any other side. I have seen variations in our corners, and Eriksen has (since Xmas) elevated to a whole other level of performance, in the process becoming a double figure goal scorer. So PERSONALLY speaking, I find your banging of this drum to be somewhat trivial in the grand scheme of things. As for the extra points needed to win the title, I would say it has as much to do with some
poor injury luck and one brick performance at Anfield as much as not burying a higher percentage of the corners we take...

 

[milo]

Thanks Milo, that is a cracking article, very interesting. Particularly the conclusion at the end.

I fully understand the stats and the conclusions and that a short corner makes more sense than long... but it is definitely one of those things that I struggle to believe, even though I've seen the evidence which is presumably correct.

PS - just as an aside, I felt that choosing 60 seconds or 90 seconds for a counter attack is a VERY long time to wait, I would choose 15 seconds I think for a genuine counter attack i.e. before the defenders can get back into shape






At the end of the day, we will get corners. So we can either take them short, or long. And if we take them long the worst things we can do are (1) float it to the keeper OR (2) always hit the first man, as it means we are very vulnerable to a counter attack. We should aim for the penalty spot and have 4 big men running to meet it around about that spot

I'd agree with most of that. We get corners, we should vary the delivery, as we do now. The argument against aiming for the penalty spot is that the protection given to keepers and keepers largely punching the ball away means that this is reasonably easy to defend against. This is why there has been a move towards delivering a ball that dips in front of the near post.

My only argument on this has been that I disagree with the belief that this is an area of the game that should be prioritised in training.

I think that the outcome of a corner is to a large degree random. If you look at the data for goals scored from corners, the range in the PL is relatively small each season with a couple of outliers. Where teams stand on the list season on season varies a fair bit and you don't see one team consistently dominating.

I think that the problem with corners is that fans expect more goals to come from them that there actually are and this leads them to think that their team under performs in this area.

 

[milo]

Fascinating studies, thanks milo.

Probably only a minor point but I don't recall any mention in those analyses of corners aimed solely at running down the clock / retaining possession / forcing another corner etc. How many corners did Sissoko & co force in the final minutes on Wednesday night? I lost count, but it hardly looked like we were trying to score from any of them.

The analysis around the height of players was also interesting. The stats seem to show that the deliberate use of taller players has only a marginal impact overall. Cannot remember how many goals West Brom have scored from corners this season except the number was a bit freaky. Would be interesting to see a close analysis that attempts to isolate the main reasons why Pulis' teams appear to achieve significantly more success from corners than the average.

I think that West Brom scoring so many goals from corners this season is largely down to luck and I would not expect them to get a similar return next year.

I have been pulling together the data on goals scored from corners per club per season. You see a fair amount of movement year on year. I haven't plotted it by manager, rather than club but that should be reasonably easy to do and I agree that it would be interesting to see how Pulis has done over a longer period.

 

[mudshark]

I would challenge you (or anyone else) to identify the 6 goals we have supposedly scored from corners in the Premier League this season. And indeed the alleged 10 we are supposed to have scored last season.

From a combination of the two videos below (timings from the first one), I think the 10 from last season are:

Stoke (H) Dier header 0:05
Qarabag (H) Son 0:20
Bournemouth (A) Kane 1:16
Villa (H) Alli 1:26
West Ham (H) Alderweireld Header 1:49
Qarabag (A) Kane 1:59
Saudi Sportswashing Machine (H) Dier header 2:20
Swansea (H) Chadli deflects Walker's shot in after keeper punches 4:14
Swansea (H) Rose from header on 4:16
Arse (H) Alderweireld 4:19

Edit: I originally thought Alderweireld's header v City on 0:40 must have been from a corner, but further research (video below) shows it wasn't, although it turns out Alli's v Villa was.

 

[braineclipse]

Thanks for posting, an interesting read. However, unlike Barcelona and Spain, who apparently just want to retain possession from corners, I think you will at least agree that we do TRY and score from corners!,

I would like you and Steff to tel me which of these statements you disagree with:

1. We currently have a poor conversion rate from corners ( at present the third lowest in the division, I believe)
2. An increased conversion rate, would lead to us scoring more goals
3. More goals can lead to more points
4. More points can increase our chance of a PL title
5. We can improve our conversion rate from corners.
6. Eriksen's delivery can be improved.
7. Our set up from corners,with 5 or more players in the opponents 6 yard box ( as evidenced in virtually every corner against Crystal Palace, ) is not most conducive to scoring goals as it doesn't allow our players to attack the balls adequately and gives the corner taker virtually no margin for error.
8. We all want to give Spurs the best possible competitive edge ( no matter how small you believe those margins may be).
9. Everything that can be done to help us improve, should be done. it's what separates winners from losers when the margins are so fine.

I think we've had this conversation before. But I still think it boils down to time available on the training ground. Pochettino has to prioritize and he seems to be doing an excellent job at prioritizing the things that are important for us to get results.

 

[braineclipse]

If you believe what you read rather than what logic dictates then there is nothing further to discuss.

It just cannot be correct that the number of goals a team scores from corners doesn't correlate to the number of corners. In addition, I find their terminology somewhat strange, when they talk about "shots from corners". Does this include headers for example. Be wary of stats.

BTW you haven't answered my question. Which of the nine points I set out don't you agree with?

I don't think you're read that particularly well. They said that the number if goals a club scores in total doesn't correlate with the number of corners they have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just can't see where they claimed that the number of corners doesn't correlate to the number of goals from corners.

That makes perfect sense given how ineffective they demonstrate corners to be.

No one is advocating believing whatever one reads. But when a careful analysis of a large sample has been made where specific expectations have been tested I think it makes sense to at least take the time to try to understand what is being said before dismissing it with a cliche like "be wary of stats".

 

[Spur of the moment]

I think we've had this conversation before. But I still think it boils down to time available on the training ground. Pochettino has to prioritize and he seems to be doing an excellent job at prioritizing the things that are important for us to get results.

But as others have acknowledged we HAVE changed the way we do corners recently. We have been mixing them up far more with short corners etc. Harry even scored from a 'Sheringham' fairly a short while back. I could be wrong but that implies to me the likelihood of more work being done on the training ground.

 

[Raziel]

But as others have acknowledged we HAVE changed the way we do corners recently. We have been mixing them up far more with short corners etc. Harry even scored from a 'Sheringham' fairly a short while back. I could be wrong but that implies to me the likelihood of more work being done on the training ground.

We have been varying both corners and set pieces over last couple of months (both taker and type).

I think what people don't realize is we play a lot of games and have a very defined system, so our training ground time is limited (you can't work on everything)
- Poch obviously spends a ton of time on fitness
- Next is system, movement, tempo of moving the ball

It is only later in season, where the above is maintain mode, we can switch to improving other items like set pieces.

 

[milo]

But as others have acknowledged we HAVE changed the way we do corners recently. We have been mixing them up far more with short corners etc. Harry even scored from a 'Sheringham' fairly a short while back. I could be wrong but that implies to me the likelihood of more work being done on the training ground.

I suspect that if you looked back at our corners over a few seasons, you would see that we've always varied them.

 

[90291Spur]

We will score from three corners against The Goons.

 

[Glenda's Legs]

We will score from three corners against The Goons.

But how many will we not score from?

 

[90291Spur]

But how many will we not score from?

87

 

[Spur of the moment]

I suspect that if you looked back at our corners over a few seasons, you would see that we've always varied them.

Maybe so but I'd argue too many of us noticed that for a long spell this season we were not varying them that much. Who knows? My guess - and it is only a guess - is that last season we had some success with near-post corners, mainly through Alderweireld, so we carried on with that this season until it became apparent opponents had sussed out what we were up to and defended accordingly.

Even so it could be argued we've been pretty unlucky with the near post corners to Alderweireld this season. He's managed to get on the end of a fair few including one in the home game against Southampton when the keeper pulled off a blinding save from a bvullet header to the far corner. There was also one the other night when his header flew just the wrong side of the near post.

 

[milo]

Maybe so but I'd argue too many of us noticed that for a long spell this season we were not varying them that much. Who knows? My guess - and it is only a guess - is that last season we had some success with near-post corners, mainly through Alderweireld, so we carried on with that this season until it became apparent opponents had sussed out what we were up to and defended accordingly.

Even so it could be argued we've been pretty unlucky with the near post corners to Alderweireld this season. He's managed to get on the end of a fair few including one in the home game against Southampton when the keeper pulled off a blinding save from a bvullet header to the far corner. There was also one the other night when his header flew just the wrong side of the near post.

I think that we are guilty of seeing what we are looking for.

Near post corners are popular because they are difficult to defend against but are hard technically.

My guess is that we had a bit of luck with corners last season and we have returned to mean this.

 

[Pirate55]

I do not recognise where you get 6 goals from corners ( still less 10 last year). I prefer to rely on my own eyes. I note you haven't tried to identify these 6 goals. As you well know, statistics can be extremely misleading.

I don't get why you guys obstinately refuse to admit we are lousy at corners and improvement in this area would be most welcome. It is these small margins which can be the difference between success and failure. I don't want to see us continue to be bridesmaids. I would suggest a significant improvement in our conversion rate from corners will give us a significant competitive edge. I fail to see how anyone can think otherwise.

Here's the thing.
Of the nine points, of all the comments passed by you on corners, we could replace the word 'corner'
with another potential chance avenue we are perhaps not at 100% with. How many one on ones do we miss? Could we not improve that? Do the coaching staff not work on that? What about productivity from indirect free-kicks? The point is that with 100 goals scored ths season, something pretty special is being worked in training. We have scored more goals from open play outside the box than any other Prem side and conceded less goals than any other side. I have seen variations in our corners, and Eriksen has (since Xmas) elevated to a whole other level of performance, in the process becoming a double figure goal scorer. So PERSONALLY speaking, I find your banging of this drum to be somewhat trivial in the grand scheme of things. As for the extra points needed to win the title, I would say it has as much to do with some
poor injury luck and one brick performance at Anfield as much as not burying a higher percentage of the corners we take...[/QUOTE]

No one is disputing the Sterling work Poch and his coaching team have done with regard to our overall play.

I come back to my golfing analogy. We are fantastic at driving, fairway woods, long irons, short irons and pitching. We more often than not get on the green in under regulation.

However, putting is a different skill set and we are below par with this aspect. Just like every hole, requires some putting (usually!) in every match we can anticipate say 7-10 corners. A small improvement here can make a big difference in terms of results. I just don't buy that there is a finite time on the training ground which doesn't enable us to work on corners as some argue. Indeed, we are beginning to show some signs of varying our corners from the low return near post corner - which I applaud. It shows we are now working on corners.

As I said, I want to see variation. I want to see short corners, long corners, corners pulled back to the edge of the area and short corners to retain possession. Once we do this, I am convinced our conversion rate will improve.I hope we score from at least one corner against Arsenal. It would be a great game to do it!

 

[Pirate55]

I don't think you're read that particularly well. They said that the number if goals a club scores in total doesn't correlate with the number of corners they have. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I just can't see where they claimed that the number of corners doesn't correlate to the number of goals from corners.

That makes perfect sense given how ineffective they demonstrate corners to be.

No one is advocating believing whatever one reads. But when a careful analysis of a large sample has been made where specific expectations have been tested I think it makes sense to at least take the time to try to understand what is being said before dismissing it with a cliche like "be wary of stats".

Look at the last graph. The team that had the most corners (20) apparently scored zero goals.

 

[Jordinho]

No one is disputing the Sterling work Poch and his coaching team have done with regard to our overall play.

I come back to my golfing analogy. We are fantastic at driving, fairway woods, long irons, short irons and pitching. We more often than not get on the green in under regulation.

However, putting is a different skill set and we are below par with this aspect. Just like every hole, requires some putting (usually!) in every match we can anticipate say 7-10 corners. A small improvement here can make a big difference in terms of results. I just don't buy that there is a finite time on the training ground which doesn't enable us to work on corners as some argue. Indeed, we are beginning to show some signs of varying our corners from the low return near post corner - which I applaud. It shows we are now working on corners.

As I said, I want to see variation. I want to see short corners, long corners, corners pulled back to the edge of the area and short corners to retain possession. Once we do this, I am convinced our conversion rate will improve.I hope we score from at least one corner against Arsenal. It would be a great game to do it!

Putting is a poor analogy as that is something that you can expect to happen at most holes and it's an integral part of the game. Getting out of a sand trap would be a better one. Being really good at it can give you an advantage, but you don't know how often it will be necessary and since time most definitely is finite, it's probably not worth working on it to the detriment of other aspects of your game.

Basically, working on creating chances and putting them away is more important. I'd rather we did that really well than hope we get a corner.

 

[milo]

However, putting is a different skill set and we are below par with this aspect. Just like every hole, requires some putting (usually!) in every match we can anticipate say 7-10 corners. A small improvement here can make a big difference in terms of results. I just don't buy that there is a finite time on the training ground which doesn't enable us to work on corners as some argue. Indeed, we are beginning to show some signs of varying our corners from the low return near post corner - which I applaud. It shows we are now working on corners.

As I said, I want to see variation. I want to see short corners, long corners, corners pulled back to the edge of the area and short corners to retain possession. Once we do this, I am convinced our conversion rate will improve.I hope we score from at least one corner against Arsenal. It would be a great game to do it!

What you have not demonstrated so far is that the difference between clubs with an average return on corners for the season like us and club with above average returns like West Brom and West Ham is down to training rather than luck. I think that this needs to be shown in order for you argument to make sense.

With regards to variation, you should be happy because we do vary them. Against Palace, we had near post, penalty spot, short attacking and short time wasting corners. I'll keep an eye out for it tomorrow but I would expect the same again.

 

[Pirate55]

What you have not demonstrated so far is that the difference between clubs with an average return on corners for the season like us and club with above average returns like West Brom and West Ham is down to training rather than luck. I think that this needs to be shown in order for you argument to make sense.

With regards to variation, you should be happy because we do vary them. Against Palace, we had near post, penalty spot, short attacking and short time wasting corners. I'll keep an eye out for it tomorrow but I would expect the same again.

I am indeed getting happIER with our corner taking. At long last, and well overdue in my opinion, our coaching staff are showing some signs that they do indeed recognise the importance of working on corners. This totally undermines those who think that this aspect isn't worth working on due to their assertion that there is a finite time available on the training ground and this aspect isn't worth troubling with. Nor do I believe it is totally down to luck.

I think we are, in some games, varying our corners, but we certainly didn't against Chelsea, where we reverted to type, and indeed, apart from late on with defensive short corners, I would hazard a guess that over 75% of our corners against Palace,went near post again.

I am hopeful we will score from a corner against Arsenal, which will reflect the increased training ground work on them.

 

[milo]

I am indeed getting happIER with our corner taking. At long last, and well overdue in my opinion, our coaching staff are showing some signs that they do indeed recognise the importance of working on corners. This totally undermines those who think that this aspect isn't worth working on due to their assertion that there is a finite time available on the training ground and this aspect isn't worth troubling with. Nor do I believe it is totally down to luck.

I think we are, in some games, varying our corners, but we certainly didn't against Chelsea, where we reverted to type, and indeed, apart from late on with defensive short corners, I would hazard a guess that over 75% of our corners against Palace,went near post again.

I am hopeful we will score from a corner against Arsenal, which will reflect the increased training ground work on them.

So you are happier with our corners this season and think that we are getting better but we have scored less goals from corners this season than last.

Was the last sentence an attempt at trolling? Or do you have inside knowledge on what we work on in training?