Serious relegation fears

[Jordinho]

That's a strange and perhaps even ridiculous comparison. RDM has no pedigree or track record of success in league terms in any country. Klopp has won multiple titles in arguably the 2nd or 3rd strongest league in Europe dominated by one of Europe's biggest superpowers. RDM had an unbelievably lucky run. Winning the league can't be described as luck. They were only knocked out by Real Madrid (the eventual winners) IIRC the following season also in the knockout stages.

You're the one who suggested that one good run in Europe made Klopp proven.

In his 7 years at the club they made the final once, the quarter finals once and last season the round of 16 where Juventus trashed them.

He won back to back league titles as Bayern were rebuilding their squad and then sacked LVG. He's a good coach, but far from the genius or miracle worker he is portrayed as in the media.

 

[Jurgen the German]

You're the one who suggested that one good run in Europe made Klopp proven.

In his 7 years at the club they made the final once, the quarter finals once and last season the round of 16 where Juventus trashed them.

He won back to back league titles as Bayern were rebuilding their squad and then sacked LVG. He's a good coach, but far from the genius or miracle worker he is portrayed as in the media.

As well as his league titles, I didn't say his CL run alone made him a top coach.

Bayern still had Robben, Muller, Kroos, Ribery, Neuer and co it's not like they had a team of chumps. Dortmund don't have anywhere near the kind of resources that Bayern have. He's definitely a top coach.

 

[Rorschach]

I don't know about Klopp's credentials as a coach but I quite enjoyed watching his Dortmund teams play. Very entertaining they were.

Liverpool are a different challenge altogether though IMO. There are more teams at or above Liverpool's level in the PL than he's had to face with his Dortmund sides and it is getting more competitive with each passing season. Add to that the huge amounts of money Liverpool have recently spent (badly) under Rodger's stewardship and the poor state of the squad he assembled with it then Klopp's job must be altogether bigger than he imagined when he signed on. He has to sort out the squad mess in much the same way Poch needed to when he arrived at Spurs before he can start looking up the table.

 

[Kandi1977]

What were your expectations at the start of the season?

That's irrelevant, but Top 4 if you insist. What's relevant is how the league looks after half a season, and judging by that we should make top 3. With some good (and lucky) business, we are in with a shout for the title for the first time in 50 years!

 

[billyiddo]

As well as his league titles, I didn't say his CL run alone made him a top coach.

Bayern still had Robben, Muller, Kroos, Ribery, Neuer and co it's not like they had a team of chumps. Dortmund don't have anywhere near the kind of resources that Bayern have. He's definitely a top coach.

You did say it made him proven in Europe though which I think is a bit of a reach and what I think Jord was getting at.

Like you say he had the 1st/2nd best team in one of Europes strongest leagues - 1 final, 1 QF in 7 years of CL football would not be a record to boast of really, if anything it's average at best

 

[alekaras]

What were your expectations at the start of the season?

In theory we should be ecstatic, because we never expected to be 4th with a shout at the title at this point of the season. In practice expectations always change based on the new reality.

 

[Charlie]

I think that 70 points will be enough for fourth this season. That is 34 points from the remaining 18 games. 10 wins 4 draws and 4 losses will get us there.

 

[alekaras]

You did say it made him proven in Europe though which I think is a bit of a reach and what I think Jord was getting at.

Like you say he had the 1st/2nd best team in one of Europes strongest leagues - 1 final, 1 QF in 7 years of CL football would not be a record to boast of really, if anything it's average at best

When Klopp took over, Dortmund had finished 7th, 7th, 9th, and 13th in the previous four seasons. So taking them to the title and a CL final is no trivial feat. He is definitely a good coach and we shall see in the PL if his success in Germany can be replicated and then judge him.

 

[billyiddo]

When Klopp took over, Dortmund had finished 7th, 7th, 9th, and 13th in the previous four seasons. So taking them to the title and a CL final is no trivial feat. He is definitely a good coach and we shall see in the PL if his success in Germany can be replicated and then judge him.

My point was solely on the idea that he's proven in Europe(an competition), which I don't think his record suggests is the case.

 

[alekaras]

My point was solely on the idea that he's proven in Europe(an competition), which I don't think his record suggests is the case.

Proven in a European competition is not a very accurate measure of how good a coach is. First of all there's the fact that in a two-leg tie anything can happen and a team can get lucky. But if you look at who eliminated Dortmund each time, you'll see it was top teams. In the season they won the title, I don't believe they made it out of the group stage. Next season they're runners up to powerhouse Bayern. The season after that they lose to eventual winners Real 3-2 on aggregate in the round of 16. And in his last season they are eliminated by eventual finalists Juventus. So all in all, not a bad showing, given the resources the team has. Going by your argument, Diego Simeone should be considered an average coach because all he has to show with Atletico is a CL final and not much else, but many would beg to differ.

Nevertheless, all of the above is moot. For me a good coach is one who is able to replicate his success in different leagues and different environments and will be curious to see how Klopp does in England. I do hope he fails miserably, as I would hate for Pool to become competitive again, even though he seems to be a very likeable guy.

 

[mudshark]

All looking a bit too cushty for the Arse at the minute. You look at the data for the 8 seasons we finished in the top 6 in those tables above, and the only years we've done better than them in the second half of the season relative to our first half performance (2006, 2009 and 2013), we've still finished 8, 5 and 10 points, respectively, below them. Across the 8 seasons, they averaged 101% of their half-way points totals in the second half of each season (best was 127%, worst was 83%), while we averaged 97% (best was 123%, worst was a pathetic 62% in 2011). If we were to equal our best improvement from January on, we'd end up with 78 points. Their average would still give them 79. The other worry is that they've got where they are even with all the injuries they've had, and they'll get those players back in 2016.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

All looking a bit too cushty for the Arse at the minute. You look at the data for the 8 seasons we finished in the top 6 in those tables above, and the only years we've done better than them in the second half of the season relative to our first half performance (2006, 2009 and 2013), we've still finished 8, 5 and 10 points, respectively, below them. Across the 8 seasons, they averaged 101% of their half-way points totals in the second half of each season (best was 127%, worst was 83%), while we averaged 97% (best was 123%, worst was a pathetic 62% in 2011). If we were to equal our best improvement from January on, we'd end up with 78 points. Their average would still give them 79. The other worry is that they've got where they are even with all the injuries they've had, and they'll get those players back in 2016.

But they will get more injuries IMO - their players aren't got enough for the style they play. There not all picking up contact injuries. Their getting muscle injuries a lot and also they have players who break down in recovery

You also need to factor in a comparison against the teams they play in the second half of the season to get a real measure IMO. They have games in the second half that could have been in the first half of the last few seasons

This is an odd season by anyone's measure and Arsenal could win it no doubt, but I believe there are a hell of a lot of twists and turns now and to come

A big player for them will be Rosikcy who always plays from January onwards but hardly ever before

I also think their over reliance on Ozil for creativity will be their Achilles heel

 

[alekaras]

The thing that the Arse has for them is that they know how to win matches, even if they're not in top form. And they never fail to beat the teams they should, which isn't something that can be said about us. Yes, we've got the best results against the top half of the table than any other team, but we're not putting away the Swanseas, the Broms, and the Newcastles. If we are able to change that and with a win against them at home, anything can happen. Unfortunately, I'm more sure we'll beat them and less sure we'll beat the teams we are supposed to, unless Poch is able to instill in the second half of the season that killer instinct that is still not quite there.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The thing that the Arse has for them is that they know how to win matches, even if they're not in top form. And they never fail to beat the teams they should, which isn't something that can be said about us. Yes, we've got the best results against the top half of the table than any other team, but we're not putting away the Swanseas, the Broms, and the Newcastles. If we are able to change that and with a win against them at home, anything can happen. Unfortunately, I'm more sure we'll beat them and less sure we'll beat the teams we are supposed to, unless Poch is able to instill in the second half of the season that killer instinct that is still not quite there.

That is the big difference between us but they looked Very tired the other day and have plenty of hard games to come

Our challenge like you say is turning draws into wins

 

[90291Spur]

The thing that the Arse has for them is that they know how to win matches, even if they're not in top form. And they never fail to beat the teams they should, which isn't something that can be said about us. Yes, we've got the best results against the top half of the table than any other team, but we're not putting away the Swanseas, the Broms, and the Newcastles. If we are able to change that and with a win against them at home, anything can happen. Unfortunately, I'm more sure we'll beat them and less sure we'll beat the teams we are supposed to, unless Poch is able to instill in the second half of the season that killer instinct that is still not quite there.

Like West Brom and Southampton?

 

[Jurgen the German]

You did say it made him proven in Europe though which I think is a bit of a reach and what I think Jord was getting at.

Like you say he had the 1st/2nd best team in one of Europes strongest leagues - 1 final, 1 QF in 7 years of CL football would not be a record to boast of really, if anything it's average at best

Your definition of "average" is clearly different to mine then I guess. Losing to the eventual winners one year and the losing finalist the next year is hardly "average". It's not like they lost to Monaco like Arsenal did for example. Look at how much money Emirates Marketing Project have spent and how many failures they have had in the CL.

 

[Jurgen the German]

But they will get more injuries IMO - their players aren't got enough for the style they play. There not all picking up contact injuries. Their getting muscle injuries a lot and also they have players who break down in recovery

You also need to factor in a comparison against the teams they play in the second half of the season to get a real measure IMO. They have games in the second half that could have been in the first half of the last few seasons

This is an odd season by anyone's measure and Arsenal could win it no doubt, but I believe there are a hell of a lot of twists and turns now and to come

A big player for them will be Rosikcy who always plays from January onwards but hardly ever before

I also think their over reliance on Ozil for creativity will be their Achilles heel

They've had injuries to key players but they have still coped better than Emirates Marketing Project have.

 

[billyiddo]

Your definition of "average" is clearly different to mine then I guess. Losing to the eventual winners one year and the losing finalist the next year is hardly "average". It's not like they lost to Monaco like Arsenal did for example. Look at how much money Emirates Marketing Project have spent and how many failures they have had in the CL.

If we got knocked out of the FA Cup in the 3rd round to the eventual winners would you say we had a good FA Cup campaign? I doubt it...

He had one good season by getting to the final, the rest was him, with the 2nd/1st best team in one of Europes top 3(?) leagues, getting knocked out before getting going - that's not 'proven in Europe' afaic

 

[Bedfordspurs]

They've had injuries to key players but they have still coped better than Emirates Marketing Project have.

Have they lost Ozil or Giroud or Cech?

Reason I ask is because other than Sanchez they have IMO only lost players who they had ample proven cover for and are far from top drawer

I agree they have coped with the injuries better but city have lost their genuine top drawer players and their cover is no where near as good as their reputation or proven for that matter

It would the same if we lost Lloris, Kane or Toby for example ... Their current irreplaceable in our squad

 

[Jurgen the German]

If we got knocked out of the FA Cup in the 3rd round to the eventual winners would you say we had a good FA Cup campaign? I doubt it...

He had one good season by getting to the final, the rest was him, with the 2nd/1st best team in one of Europes top 3(?) leagues, getting knocked out before getting going - that's not 'proven in Europe' afaic

Do me a favour Billy. The FA Cup compared to the Champions League? One competition has the likes of Real, Barca, Bayern and PSG, the other has league 2 sides in the 3rd round. You also have to play almost twice as many games in the CL to win it compared to the FA cup. Are you saying that a coach has to win the CL to be proven? In that case, Wenger definitely isn't.