Ross Barkley

[Ade's folks are ok really]

Agreed. So it's a done deal then, right??!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Based on what we know we can only say for sure we have interest.

I suspect we are waiting on him actually being fit, which conveniently will likely mean its the summer and he is also on a free.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I also think Barkley fits into our team as a Demebele replacement.

Lets be honest, attacking wise, he simply isnt good enough. His numbers arent even close to what we already have.

His attributes though, put me well in mind of Demebele, I think he has the potential to become that sort of player.

And before GB comes in with players not developing past 24 etc - Demebele is the perfect counter. He didnt really settle into that midfield role until much later. He went to fulham as a striker, where despite his ability simply didnt get enough goals and assists. And that ability saw him stay in the team, but moved LW/RW/#10/AM... and in each he just didnt hit the spot. It wasnt until he played CM he seemed to go up a level and really deliver - which is when we bought him.

And even then it took a couple of seasons to really find his role, at which point he was what? 28?

Barkley has the physique, skill, control and ability to find a pass to really succeed in a Dembele type role IMHO.

The one thing Barkley can do is attack. He's Alli-lite. A more powerful Alli, but without the intelligence.

The things Barkley can't do is defend or read the game to be able to get himself in the correct position.

Other than him being big, I've not seen one attribute in him to suggest he'd be suitable for being converted into a CM.

The Dembele comparison is interesting, but Dembele was always a good defensive player (see his games for AVB alongside Sandro). Dembele's problem was always his slow transitioning. So something very different to coach.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Agreed. So it's a done deal then, right??!

12/1 at SkyBet, compare to 1/3 to Chelsea, so go back your conviction.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So Dembele can be coached to transition, but Barkley cannot be coached to defend?

If anything, defending is far easier to coach.

He has the build, he has the close control, he has the ability to pick some exquisite passes. If his limitation is that he cannot defend then its hardly a limiting factor, is it?

Especially when he will be playing in a system that wont rely entirely on him defensively. There is always ample cover around our players. AND he will be playing in a very well coached and defined role. Poch will see to that.

Ive always seen a willingness in Barkley to work hard, as Ive mentioned before - I think much of the problems with his game arent down to a lack of ability (mental or otherwise) but are down to having Martinez as a manager.

In the same way Dembele found his position further back than originally thought, I think Barkley can too.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So Dembele can be coached to transition, but Barkley cannot be coached to defend?

If anything, defending is far easier to coach.

He has the build, he has the close control, he has the ability to pick some exquisite passes. If his limitation is that he cannot defend then its hardly a limiting factor, is it?

Especially when he will be playing in a system that wont rely entirely on him defensively. There is always ample cover around our players. AND he will be playing in a very well coached and defined role. Poch will see to that.

Ive always seen a willingness in Barkley to work hard, as Ive mentioned before - I think much of the problems with his game arent down to a lack of ability (mental or otherwise) but are down to having Martinez as a manager.

In the same way Dembele found his position further back than originally thought, I think Barkley can too.

Did Jenas ever learn positioning, despite being a smart (off the pitch) and willing player? He's not too dissimilar in style to Barkley actually

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Did Jenas ever learn positioning, despite being a smart (off the pitch) and willing player? He's not too dissimilar in style to Barkley actually

Is your point that because there is one example of a player not learning, then Barkley wont/cant?

I never really saw an issue with Jenas' game really. My complaints with him were always more about wasted potential than actually being "bad" in some form.

And he never played under a coach like Pochettino, did he? Certainly nobody as good. I wonder what player Jenas might have become if he did.

The point is Barkley is young, and talented. With quality in the unteachable attributes, like vision - and a willingness to work hard. Which means he should have it in him to follow Pochs method and become at least competent in defense.

It is by no means a certainty he will be a success, but by the same token it is by no means as certain that he will not - as you seem so sure of.

I can well imagine him as the CM player we have making things happen from deep/central areas much like Dembele. Switching defense to attack, creating space and getting the ball forward. In fact, IMO, itll suit him nicely.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I just see it as a waste of time and money, when Winks is already better than him and Onomah has much more potential. There's also Skipp coming though in that position too. It just feels like bed blocking.

If we want to get him as an emergency back-up plan for Alli going to Barcelona in the summer, and us not being able to get a top notch replacement (a Pav for Berbatov if you like), I'd actually be less hostile.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

He is nothing like Alli. And I suspect never will be.

And I dont believe in bed blocking either. If a player is good enough they will come through, just as Winks has.

If Skipp is so good he will get in, and in Pochs consideration - maybe be why we ultimately sell someone like Barkley knowing we have a replacement already.

He will cost virtually nothing, adds to the side right now - and (I think) offers succession to one of our key players. All good reasons to get him.

There is nothing to suggest that in a season or so there wont be room for other players. IF those players make the grade.

Its all well and good talking up Onomahs potential, for example, but so far the lad has done near fudge all. Despite his obvious qualities. There is no guarantee he ever will.

Barkley, with his supposed less potential than Onomah, already has buckets of league experience (167 games, 25 goals), has shown what he can do, played for England 22 times at senior level (+ all other levels) and, should we sign him, will have impressed our manager enough for him to want to work with him.

Thats plenty good enough for me, not least because it is far more tangible than a youth players potential.

 

[Gutter Boy]

The cost of Barkley is £150k pw wages (or some fudge to give him 1/3 of that upfront to not tinkle off Kane and Lloris), for a player who has had 2 major injuries (we've all seen what's happened with Rodriguez and Shaw in recent years).

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

And no money up front.

When £150k will very soon be where all our decent players are at. Particularly when the new stadium is done and our revenues go up.

I understand and respect that you dont fancy him as a player/buy, but your arguments against him just dont stack up.

 

[StephenH]

Barkley is a bit marmite.
I kind of liked the look of him at Everton on more than one occasion. But a big hamstring injury makes any of our opinion mainly guesswork and worthless without seeing him physically put through his passes and reading all the medical reports.

 

[milo]

Is your point that because there is one example of a player not learning, then Barkley wont/cant?

I never really saw an issue with Jenas' game really. My complaints with him were always more about wasted potential than actually being "bad" in some form.

And he never played under a coach like Pochettino, did he? Certainly nobody as good. I wonder what player Jenas might have become if he did.

The point is Barkley is young, and talented. With quality in the unteachable attributes, like vision - and a willingness to work hard. Which means he should have it in him to follow Pochs method and become at least competent in defense.

It is by no means a certainty he will be a success, but by the same token it is by no means as certain that he will not - as you seem so sure of.

I can well imagine him as the CM player we have making things happen from deep/central areas much like Dembele. Switching defense to attack, creating space and getting the ball forward. In fact, IMO, itll suit him nicely.

Jenas made an interesting comment about himself as a player after the Burnley game. They were discussing Alli playing on the edge and Jenas said that he thinks he would have been a better player if he had that kind of drive and appetite. I think that he's right and that's what separated him from the best players of his generation, not ability.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Jenas made an interesting comment about himself as a player after the Burnley game. They were discussing Alli playing on the edge and Jenas said that he thinks he would have been a better player if he had that kind of drive and appetite. I think that he's right and that's what separated him from the best players of his generation, not ability.

I always thought it was intelligence. He could be brilliant when he was instinctive; he had great technique. But the minute you gave him a decision and a bit of time, it all went wrong.

I think, along with Gazza (in reverse), he's the perfect example of how football intelligence and general intelligence are completely detached.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Jenas made an interesting comment about himself as a player after the Burnley game. They were discussing Alli playing on the edge and Jenas said that he thinks he would have been a better player if he had that kind of drive and appetite. I think that he's right and that's what separated him from the best players of his generation, not ability.

One game in 10 he was that player genuinely in the Gerrard class, he just didn't have it in him to do this consistently, I would blame heart more than head myself

 

[Lemonade Money]

Jenas made an interesting comment about himself as a player after the Burnley game. They were discussing Alli playing on the edge and Jenas said that he thinks he would have been a better player if he had that kind of drive and appetite. I think that he's right and that's what separated him from the best players of his generation, not ability.

Would also explain why he turned up for NLDs.

 

[milo]

One game in 10 he was that player genuinely in the Gerrard class, he just didn't have it in him to do this consistently, I would blame heart more than head myself

I think that's what he meant

 

[milo]

I always thought it was intelligence. He could be brilliant when he was instinctive; he had great technique. But the minute you gave him a decision and a bit of time, it all went wrong.

I think, along with Gazza (in reverse), he's the perfect example of how football intelligence and general intelligence are completely detached.

I agree with @r-u-s-x I think he lacked a little heart and was a bit too nice.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Barkley is a bit marmite.
I kind of liked the look of him at Everton on more than one occasion. But a big hamstring injury makes any of our opinion mainly guesswork and worthless without seeing him physically put through his passes and reading all the medical reports.

Im supportive of the idea having given it thought having been linked. Were we never linked I doubt I would be advocating it too highly.

I think he is obviously a player of potential, but also with a lot to prove.

Should Pochettino go for him then Im fuly supportive of that, if he doesnt then I certainly wont lose sleep.

Jenas made an interesting comment about himself as a player after the Burnley game. They were discussing Alli playing on the edge and Jenas said that he thinks he would have been a better player if he had that kind of drive and appetite. I think that he's right and that's what separated him from the best players of his generation, not ability.

And thats why I like him, really honest and generally has a point to what he says. I find he often offers real insight into being a player as well when he relates things to his own career.

And I think he is right. Call it drive/appetite/heart - he was lacking that bastard instinct to really grasp the next level. I certainly feel he has the ability.

Of the current lot I feel that way watching Onomah whenever I see him. Clearly has class and ability, but is too passive. Of course, he has time to grow out of it, but he's the first example to spring to mind.

 

[Gazza]

I don't buy the against Barkley camp on this one.

He is an English player that has shown in purple patches that he can be an elite player. Under a coach like ours he will probably know that he will get a chance play to that maximum, and that can't be a bad thing.

Should it go terribly wrong, worst case scenario we have spunked money in wages.

Should it go average for him where he can't cut it in our current set up ... you got to love West Ham, Stoke etc in this scenario. We can flog him for a minimum £20 mil premium being an English player etc.

Should it go well for him, a core English set of players with premiership experience , we have a stronger squad... where is the issue?

Should it go really well for him Real Madrid come knocking and we then DECIDE if he is good enough vs the money.

Barkley Dier Alli in a midfield on paper seems to tick most if not all boxes.

The fact that Conte is also interested in him suggests that actually someone has seen enough footage of him to think they can make him a better player. Like him or not Conte is a very astute coach and tactically up there with the best. May not always get it right but I would wage a bet with anyone that he has seen more of RB than the highlights on MOTD.

If he passes a stringent medical and is deemed fit and healthy i would say game on.