africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: Official - Soldado
just seen gary neville rubbish soldado.....and its not the first time he's done that either
just seen gary neville rubbish soldado.....and its not the first time he's done that either
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Roberto Soldado
- Thread starter Boonie
- Start date
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Re: Official - Soldado
If you think Falcao is run around working the back line striker then we are seeing something completely different. I see a sneaky ****er who times his runs to get in dangerous positions to maximum effect. In fact I spent the entire Europa league final from a few years back pretty must watching him do just that (after snagging a few complimentary tickets
). Falcao is far superior to Soldado to be sure but I see loads of similarities. Anyway it sounds like we have completely different opinions about Falcao too so maybe let's park that one.
The reason why I'm saying no one is breaking into the box is because it is not happening now. My hope was Paulinho and our insides fowards would be making clever runs into the box and be found repeatedly by our clever Ajax number 10 but these are rare and are the exception. They should be doing making these runs irrespective of where Soldado finds himself anyway. If it happens in the future, then great but it's not certainly not what we are doing now and unless AVB changes things I don't see Soldado or any striker dropping deep about to trigger this.
I don't really get your point on Crouch or VDV but that was a completely different team and style which I'm not sure is relevant to what we are seeing on the pitch now.
I didn't say this, in fact I am implying the opposite. You might argue that Soldado is the only one doing what we expected. It's the players behind him that are misfiring in a literal sense.
If you think Falcao is run around working the back line striker then we are seeing something completely different. I see a sneaky ****er who times his runs to get in dangerous positions to maximum effect. In fact I spent the entire Europa league final from a few years back pretty must watching him do just that (after snagging a few complimentary tickets
). Falcao is far superior to Soldado to be sure but I see loads of similarities. Anyway it sounds like we have completely different opinions about Falcao too so maybe let's park that one. The reason why I'm saying no one is breaking into the box is because it is not happening now. My hope was Paulinho and our insides fowards would be making clever runs into the box and be found repeatedly by our clever Ajax number 10 but these are rare and are the exception. They should be doing making these runs irrespective of where Soldado finds himself anyway. If it happens in the future, then great but it's not certainly not what we are doing now and unless AVB changes things I don't see Soldado or any striker dropping deep about to trigger this.
I don't really get your point on Crouch or VDV but that was a completely different team and style which I'm not sure is relevant to what we are seeing on the pitch now.
I didn't say this, in fact I am implying the opposite. You might argue that Soldado is the only one doing what we expected. It's the players behind him that are misfiring in a literal sense.
Last edited:
Cochise
Steve Carr
Re: Official - Soldado
If I'm right in my thinking aren't the inverted wingers meant to pull inside to recieve a pass (dragging the fullback with them), lay it off and move into the box at the same time as our fullback bombs into the space down the flank before driving in towards the box and committing another player? The inverted winger on the other side is meant to be getting inside of his fullback at the back post or dropping onto the penalty spot whilst another of our midfielders provides a third/fourth option.
The point is that the options in the box when playing a lone striker are meant to be provided by late runs by midfielders into spaces that have been created by the wingers/forwards movement away from goal. Playing like Bale and cutting in on your favoured foot to smash a shot goalwards is only part of the job. How many times in recent years have we been begging for Lennon to be tucking in at the back post for a Gareth Bale cross when instead he is still outside the 18 yard box??
If I'm right in my thinking aren't the inverted wingers meant to pull inside to recieve a pass (dragging the fullback with them), lay it off and move into the box at the same time as our fullback bombs into the space down the flank before driving in towards the box and committing another player? The inverted winger on the other side is meant to be getting inside of his fullback at the back post or dropping onto the penalty spot whilst another of our midfielders provides a third/fourth option.
The point is that the options in the box when playing a lone striker are meant to be provided by late runs by midfielders into spaces that have been created by the wingers/forwards movement away from goal. Playing like Bale and cutting in on your favoured foot to smash a shot goalwards is only part of the job. How many times in recent years have we been begging for Lennon to be tucking in at the back post for a Gareth Bale cross when instead he is still outside the 18 yard box??
SteveAWOL
Chris Jones
Re: Official - Soldado
Doesn't make enough clever runs for the ball according to Neville, although he also mentions that we need a quality #10 to help him out.
Doesn't make enough clever runs for the ball according to Neville, although he also mentions that we need a quality #10 to help him out.
Stenno
Banned
Re: Official - Soldado
The lack of number ten is definitely the issue and Holtby is certainly not the answer.. Sigh, chuck Lamela in the hole and have Townsend out on the left replacing Holtby? That's my next step.
The lack of number ten is definitely the issue and Holtby is certainly not the answer.. Sigh, chuck Lamela in the hole and have Townsend out on the left replacing Holtby? That's my next step.
rosenthal
Sebastien Bassong
Re: Official - Soldado
Provide runs and movement around him and he'll do great.
Can only back up the opinion that we attack too slow, with not enough men and leave Soldado isolated and frustrated up front.
What type of football suit Soldado best? The spanish kind, pass and move around opponent box, there need to be around him both a passer and someone to take a run in different direction of Soldado.
He'll never be a Suarez that create opportunities by himself,
if that's what we want from him we've signed the wrong striker.
Soldado is extremely good at what he does well, but that's also all he do.
Our best attacks this season show what type of situations we need to create for Soldado
[video=youtube;Mi9E0d671ow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9E0d671ow[/video]
[video=youtube;OqZqICg4PPQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqZqICg4PPQ[/video]
Provide runs and movement around him and he'll do great.
Can only back up the opinion that we attack too slow, with not enough men and leave Soldado isolated and frustrated up front.
What type of football suit Soldado best? The spanish kind, pass and move around opponent box, there need to be around him both a passer and someone to take a run in different direction of Soldado.
He'll never be a Suarez that create opportunities by himself,
if that's what we want from him we've signed the wrong striker.
Soldado is extremely good at what he does well, but that's also all he do.
Our best attacks this season show what type of situations we need to create for Soldado
[video=youtube;Mi9E0d671ow]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mi9E0d671ow[/video]
[video=youtube;OqZqICg4PPQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqZqICg4PPQ[/video]
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: Official - Soldado
yes but i didnt blame the formation OR inverted wingers though...i blamed the system. actually you didnt say i was blaming the system or formation at all did you
but you seem to find it hard to distinguish what i am saying, i.e formations and systems.
not to mention that even though the system carries alot of weight in soldado's issues, it should be pretty clear that i am laying a big chunk of blame on soldado
yes but i didnt blame the formation OR inverted wingers though...i blamed the system. actually you didnt say i was blaming the system or formation at all did you
but you seem to find it hard to distinguish what i am saying, i.e formations and systems.
not to mention that even though the system carries alot of weight in soldado's issues, it should be pretty clear that i am laying a big chunk of blame on soldado
africanspurs
Justin Edinburgh
Re: Official - Soldado
we are definately watching two completely different players. falcao comes short, works channels, pulls defenders wide, breaks the back line, holds up well, lays off quick, arcs his runs across the back line...couldnt ask for a better work ethic. mind you i didnt watch him as much as you but there was a point that i started watching him alot right up until that game against chelsea and then whenever possible for athletico after.......
parked.
agree with the second paragraph but dont think it has much to do with solly looking like a lost guy out there
agree with the last line but in this system with this team its problem, he should grow a pair and change up some
If you think Falcao is run around working the back line striker then we are seeing something completely different. I see a sneaky ****er who times his runs to get in dangerous positions to maximum effect. In fact I spent the entire Europa league final from a few years back pretty must watching him do just that (after snagging a few complimentary tickets
The reason why I'm saying no one is breaking into the box is because it is not happening now. My hope was Paulinho and our insides fowards would be making clever runs into the box and be found repeatedly by our clever Ajax number 10 but these are rare and are the exception. They should be doing making these runs irrespective of where Soldado finds himself anyway. If it happens in the future, then great but it's not certainly not what we are doing now and unless AVB changes things I don't see Soldado or any striker dropping deep about to trigger this.
I don't really get your point on Crouch or VDV but that was a completely different team and style which I'm not sure is relevant to what we are seeing on the pitch now.
I didn't say this, in fact I am implying the opposite. You might argue that Soldado is the only one doing what we expected. It's the players behind him that are misfiring in a literal sense.
we are definately watching two completely different players. falcao comes short, works channels, pulls defenders wide, breaks the back line, holds up well, lays off quick, arcs his runs across the back line...couldnt ask for a better work ethic. mind you i didnt watch him as much as you but there was a point that i started watching him alot right up until that game against chelsea and then whenever possible for athletico after.......
parked.
agree with the second paragraph but dont think it has much to do with solly looking like a lost guy out there
agree with the last line but in this system with this team its problem, he should grow a pair and change up some
milo
Jack L. Jones
Re: Official - Soldado
Like I said, we seem to be talking at cross purposes. I don't know what AVB is asking the players to do on the training pitch and no does anyone else on here.
I doubt that he is intentionally going into games to not create chances and I think the main problem is that our attacking midfielders are misfiring.
Like I said, we seem to be talking at cross purposes. I don't know what AVB is asking the players to do on the training pitch and no does anyone else on here.
I doubt that he is intentionally going into games to not create chances and I think the main problem is that our attacking midfielders are misfiring.
Rorschach
Sonny Walters
Re: Official - Soldado
This sounds like I am arguing that Soldado is as good a player as Falcao. I am not and he is not, but I do think he is a watered down version of him. I might add that Falcao is probably my favourite striker and way back the very first time I saw him play for Porto I was on this very board (or a previous incarnation of it) blabbering about how we need to buy this guy before his price rockets. From day one he has looked the total predator and although he has other qualities his modus operandi is clever movement in and around the box. Having loads of kids I end up watching Spanish football a lot instead of going out at the weekend and my opinion is not to judge Soldado on what you have seen at Spurs. We're making him look bad.
Parallel parked
Anyway I don't this leopard will change his spots now. He's 28 and his playing style is engrained in his DNA at this stage. If AVB persists stubbornly with what he is doing then maybe Ade is a better choice for this system, though not by much. There are very few strikers that could make what we are doing now more effective. Lukaku or Benteke (of last year) maybe but who knows?
This sounds like I am arguing that Soldado is as good a player as Falcao. I am not and he is not, but I do think he is a watered down version of him. I might add that Falcao is probably my favourite striker and way back the very first time I saw him play for Porto I was on this very board (or a previous incarnation of it) blabbering about how we need to buy this guy before his price rockets. From day one he has looked the total predator and although he has other qualities his modus operandi is clever movement in and around the box. Having loads of kids I end up watching Spanish football a lot instead of going out at the weekend and my opinion is not to judge Soldado on what you have seen at Spurs. We're making him look bad.
Parallel parked
Anyway I don't this leopard will change his spots now. He's 28 and his playing style is engrained in his DNA at this stage. If AVB persists stubbornly with what he is doing then maybe Ade is a better choice for this system, though not by much. There are very few strikers that could make what we are doing now more effective. Lukaku or Benteke (of last year) maybe but who knows?
jurgen lineker
Radek Cerny
Re: Official - Soldado
They are not of the same quality (Falcao is clearly better) but Soldado and Falcao are very much similar forwards, of course they are not like for like in every facet of their game but they are very much variants of your same forward; a poacher. Soldado's game is based on mobility and intelligence, as is Falcao's, working defenders, persistently on the lookout for space, playing off the last line of defence and coming short to work with the midfield with the aim to then make a purposeful run into the box. Soldado does not work the wings as much as Falcao but then lets not exaggerate that side of Falcao's game, the attributes they do share are the attributes they utilise more often than not during a game thus making them similar forwards. His work ethic is also more than admirable, anyone who has seen him play at Valencia will know he is a very competitive, feisty and extremely passionate individual. Like i said when he first arrived here, he is very much a combination of both VDV's character and Defoe's playing style, whether we will get to see either of those sides of his game here remains to be seen, but he most definitely has it within his locker to do so.
He has had a slow start to life at Tottenham but then that is a criticism we can level at pretty much all our attacking personnel, if they are all not functioning to what is expected of them then that is a clear indication that it is a systematic/managerial issue as opposed to a personnel issue. Falcao would also be facing similar problems here. Soldado has proven throughout his career that he is a top level forward, not necessarily a world-class forward but most certainly a forward that has the ability to contribute significantly to a team. If he turns out to be a flop here then that won't make him a bad forward it will only make him another forward, alongside many other top level forwards, that never had the breaks for whatever reason and then found it difficult to recapture past form (see Shevchenko and Crespo).
They are not of the same quality (Falcao is clearly better) but Soldado and Falcao are very much similar forwards, of course they are not like for like in every facet of their game but they are very much variants of your same forward; a poacher. Soldado's game is based on mobility and intelligence, as is Falcao's, working defenders, persistently on the lookout for space, playing off the last line of defence and coming short to work with the midfield with the aim to then make a purposeful run into the box. Soldado does not work the wings as much as Falcao but then lets not exaggerate that side of Falcao's game, the attributes they do share are the attributes they utilise more often than not during a game thus making them similar forwards. His work ethic is also more than admirable, anyone who has seen him play at Valencia will know he is a very competitive, feisty and extremely passionate individual. Like i said when he first arrived here, he is very much a combination of both VDV's character and Defoe's playing style, whether we will get to see either of those sides of his game here remains to be seen, but he most definitely has it within his locker to do so.
He has had a slow start to life at Tottenham but then that is a criticism we can level at pretty much all our attacking personnel, if they are all not functioning to what is expected of them then that is a clear indication that it is a systematic/managerial issue as opposed to a personnel issue. Falcao would also be facing similar problems here. Soldado has proven throughout his career that he is a top level forward, not necessarily a world-class forward but most certainly a forward that has the ability to contribute significantly to a team. If he turns out to be a flop here then that won't make him a bad forward it will only make him another forward, alongside many other top level forwards, that never had the breaks for whatever reason and then found it difficult to recapture past form (see Shevchenko and Crespo).
Millsy_Yiddo
Naybet
Re: Official - Soldado
It doesn't require players of the quality of Bale and Ronaldo, it requires players who are a goal scoring threat when they cut inside. Aaron Lennon is not, Andros Townsend although he could be, at the moment with his wayward shooting is not. I'm not convinced that inverted wingers is the predominant style in world football. 4-2-3-1 is the 'in-vogue' formation at the moment, just like 5-3-2 was for a while back in the 90's and 4-4-2 was for years. I think (although admittedly I don't know) if you took each of the clubs playing inverted wingers you'd find that at least one if not both of their wingers offer a genuine goal threat.
I agree with you about the attacking fullbacks, but the opposition full-backs only have to worry about our attacking full backs if there is space in behind them to run into. Due to the slow build up that AVB has us playing, teams have time to set up two banks of four and sit deep, therefore there is no space for our fullbacks to attack.
It doesn't require players of the quality of Bale and Ronaldo, it requires players who are a goal scoring threat when they cut inside. Aaron Lennon is not, Andros Townsend although he could be, at the moment with his wayward shooting is not. I'm not convinced that inverted wingers is the predominant style in world football. 4-2-3-1 is the 'in-vogue' formation at the moment, just like 5-3-2 was for a while back in the 90's and 4-4-2 was for years. I think (although admittedly I don't know) if you took each of the clubs playing inverted wingers you'd find that at least one if not both of their wingers offer a genuine goal threat.
I agree with you about the attacking fullbacks, but the opposition full-backs only have to worry about our attacking full backs if there is space in behind them to run into. Due to the slow build up that AVB has us playing, teams have time to set up two banks of four and sit deep, therefore there is no space for our fullbacks to attack.
Modric THFC
Jimmy McCormick
Re: Official - Soldado
Since this has turned into a 4231 discussion. Where 4231 is best and most effective is when the 3 behind the striker have a fluidity, swapping and interchanging position throughout the game. We don't have that. AVB hasn't allowed his players creative freedom. Everything is rehearsed and preordained. Out wide players swap over after instruction from the bench for instance. We're left with an argument about whether inverted wingers or traditional only are the way to go because they is no inbetween with AVB.
Since this has turned into a 4231 discussion. Where 4231 is best and most effective is when the 3 behind the striker have a fluidity, swapping and interchanging position throughout the game. We don't have that. AVB hasn't allowed his players creative freedom. Everything is rehearsed and preordained. Out wide players swap over after instruction from the bench for instance. We're left with an argument about whether inverted wingers or traditional only are the way to go because they is no inbetween with AVB.
punk_is_back`
Ilie Dumitrescu
Re: Official - Soldado
I believe that we don't have enough clever ball players in Midfield. L'**** pack their midfield out with clever players with good passing and only use One DM (Flamini). We should do the same and give the players free reign
-------------------------------Lloris------------------------------------
Walker---------Dawson---------------Verts-------------------Rose
-----------------------------Sandro------------------------------------
Lamela--------Eriksen-----------------Holtby--------------Townsend
------------------------------Ade/Soldado------------------------------
I guarantee that you'll see a lot better movement with this midfield; however it only works for **** as the 2 in front of the DM work like a bitch. Holtby works hard but I'm not sure Eriksen is up to speed yet in terms of PL fitness and work rate.
I believe that we don't have enough clever ball players in Midfield. L'**** pack their midfield out with clever players with good passing and only use One DM (Flamini). We should do the same and give the players free reign
-------------------------------Lloris------------------------------------
Walker---------Dawson---------------Verts-------------------Rose
-----------------------------Sandro------------------------------------
Lamela--------Eriksen-----------------Holtby--------------Townsend
------------------------------Ade/Soldado------------------------------
I guarantee that you'll see a lot better movement with this midfield; however it only works for **** as the 2 in front of the DM work like a bitch. Holtby works hard but I'm not sure Eriksen is up to speed yet in terms of PL fitness and work rate.
Ginola99
Steven Caulker
Re: Official - Soldado
I agree I would like to see this.. Its all about dropping Paulinho for the better of the team..
I agree I would like to see this.. Its all about dropping Paulinho for the better of the team..
Cochise
Steve Carr
Re: Official - Soldado
Watching the gooners though, you notice how often Giroud drops deep to receive the ball or pops up on the wing, something which Soldado hasn't been doing much of hence Neville's criticism. I'm not saying he hasn't done it at all, just that he hasn't all that often. Also it's worth noting that Giroud is a bit of a battering ram, then again they try to keep it on the deck so I suppose size is not a pre requisite. I agree with the above formation but would have Siggy in for one of the two behind the striker. He has got goals in him and isn't likely to shy from the physical side of the game when need be.
Watching the gooners though, you notice how often Giroud drops deep to receive the ball or pops up on the wing, something which Soldado hasn't been doing much of hence Neville's criticism. I'm not saying he hasn't done it at all, just that he hasn't all that often. Also it's worth noting that Giroud is a bit of a battering ram, then again they try to keep it on the deck so I suppose size is not a pre requisite. I agree with the above formation but would have Siggy in for one of the two behind the striker. He has got goals in him and isn't likely to shy from the physical side of the game when need be.
Cochise
Steve Carr
Re: Official - Soldado
On a seperate note regarding 4231/433/4123/4141/inverted winger formation, check a team such as Barcelona and their high possession build up play. Tonight Ajax beat them but just watching the last 10-15 mins you could see the influence the full backs had. Quite often the moment they got high enough up the pitch, the "wingers" would move in with someone like Iniesta moving into place as the third corner of the passing triangle. I watched both Pedro and Neymar drive centrally with the ball, play a pass and run into the box onto the chipped pass, kinda like what Lamela and Eriksen attempted when Lamela got his first goal the other week. As said the inverted wingers are supposed to offer a goal threat as they make up for the loss of a second striker. It's having them making the right runs with the right passer on the edge of the box supporting the move that matters. Often in games you see both wingers staying within the width of the penalty box.
On a seperate note regarding 4231/433/4123/4141/inverted winger formation, check a team such as Barcelona and their high possession build up play. Tonight Ajax beat them but just watching the last 10-15 mins you could see the influence the full backs had. Quite often the moment they got high enough up the pitch, the "wingers" would move in with someone like Iniesta moving into place as the third corner of the passing triangle. I watched both Pedro and Neymar drive centrally with the ball, play a pass and run into the box onto the chipped pass, kinda like what Lamela and Eriksen attempted when Lamela got his first goal the other week. As said the inverted wingers are supposed to offer a goal threat as they make up for the loss of a second striker. It's having them making the right runs with the right passer on the edge of the box supporting the move that matters. Often in games you see both wingers staying within the width of the penalty box.
Cochise
Steve Carr
Re: Official - Soldado
Not saying he enjoys it but the guys topping 6ft, would handle things in their better than Eriksen atm and would also add more of an attacking threat than Dembele and Paulinho. My main point though is that he does offer goals. Anyways Lampard plays alongside Mikel or Ramires in a deep two, although still gets into the box.
Not saying he enjoys it but the guys topping 6ft, would handle things in their better than Eriksen atm and would also add more of an attacking threat than Dembele and Paulinho. My main point though is that he does offer goals. Anyways Lampard plays alongside Mikel or Ramires in a deep two, although still gets into the box.