Redknapp

[DHSF]

And confidence is one of the things he is able to drum up when he's focussed!
It's impossible to apply the word "context" without considering the nucleus that's been here for 3 or 4 years mate...look, Harry was fantastic in the first season and a half, we got CL, etc, but that was when focussing on ONE thing. I think perspective is very important. I think Harry could be an excellent manager for us if he loved us/loved the job as much as he loves himself, but the truth is, we have, in patches, come a distant second to Harry, Harry's needs and Harry's life. It's clear for all to see. The big questions is whether Harry is now finally ready to give us his full, undivided attention and focus, or whether he will always be sniffing the wind for something more lucrative in one sense or another. I have no idea. The only people who do are in the boardroom I suspect. One thing; if, by some twist of fate, he stays, I sincerely hope he listens to the clamor of people begging him to stop referring to us in the third person...Harry, it's "US" and "WE"...

How do you expect a Manager to love and be loyal to a club when the fans dont show the love and loyalty to the manager?

Lets be honest - from the get go - you have a number of fans who never wanted Harry, you have a number of fans who would drop Harry at the drop of a hat, and you have fans who persist in thinkin he is small time. How do you expect a Manager, who has been "successful" to be loyal? loving of the club?

Its not unconditional, your kids could hate you but you will still love em, fans need to show the loyalty n love and it will be returned. Harry has done enough to warrant another season with the players at his disposal and ultimately our support.

 

[billyiddo]

How do you expect a Manager to love and be loyal to a club when the fans dont show the love and loyalty to the manager?

Lets be honest - from the get go - you have a number of fans who never wanted Harry, you have a number of fans who would drop Harry at the drop of a hat, and you have fans who persist in thinkin he is small time. How do you expect a Manager, who has been "successful" to be loyal? loving of the club?

Its not unconditional, your kids could hate you but you will still love em, fans need to show the loyalty n love and it will be returned. Harry has done enough to warrant another season with the players at his disposal and ultimately our support.

he gets plenty of support at games - what people say on the internet probably holds little interest to him - we could all be in unison sucking his **** on here on a nightly basis and he wouldn't have a clue - and if it does bother him that a few people question some of his actions then he probably isn't cut out to being a public figure - look at the brick Wenger has been getting from a much higher % of scum fans these past few seasons - does he let that affect his standing with the club ?

 

[scaramanga]

How do you expect a Manager to love and be loyal to a club when the fans dont show the love and loyalty to the manager?

Lets be honest - from the get go - you have a number of fans who never wanted Harry, you have a number of fans who would drop Harry at the drop of a hat, and you have fans who persist in thinkin he is small time. How do you expect a Manager, who has been "successful" to be loyal? loving of the club?

Its not unconditional, your kids could hate you but you will still love em, fans need to show the loyalty n love and it will be returned. Harry has done enough to warrant another season with the players at his disposal and ultimately our support.

This is the man that went from Portsmouth to Southampton and back again - he doesn't know the meaning of the word loyalty and is as scummy as Campbell for having done so.

Most on here probably haven't experienced the rivalry between the two clubs, but I've spent chunks of my life living in that area and can tell you that our rivalry with Arsenal pales in comparison. It's not exactly Celtic/Rangers, but it's a whole city hatred thing - even those who don't like football hate the other city. On the other hand, I don't hate South London at all - avoid it like a stabby plague, but don't hate it.

Nobody with even an ounce of decency could leave one of those clubs for the other - doing it twice is pretty fudging low.

 

[Robspur12]

Actually thats not true

I just took you to task over you trying to pass off your opinions as facts

I can deal with facts all day long, what I cant accept is the principle of looking at a set of facts, and then interpreting them in a way that suits your argument

For example.

Between the time that Capello resigned, and Hodgson was announced as his replacement the results were (fill in the details yourself, as I can't be bothered to dig them out) - and this is all down to the fact that HR was too busy showing his arse to the FA to get them to employ him, and that he lost interest in managing the club.

The results in the period are facts - the interpretation that follows is speculation and in my opinion a load of gonads. I have explained why I believe it happened ad nauseum and am not going to fall into the trap that I upbraided Mr Expert over.

I can deal with any amount of reasoned debate, and some of the negativity I actually agree with, but not the hysteria and dreamworld criticisms of someone who has produced the best set of consistent football, results and end of season finishes of any manager of the club since the early sixties. If in the intervening 50 years we had been producing dynamic football of the sort we saw at the beginning of this last season, or the fantastic stuff we were producing in the CL last season, coupled with table topping finishes, then I might even accept some of the unwarranted tosh that has been levelled at the man.

To a plastic fan like yourself, who supported another team for years, and then decided to support Spurs a few years ago, I realise that you probably know sod all about the history of Spurs, but I do - certainly back to the late 60s, when I started supporting the club. And the one thing that Spurs have done, is to prepare me for the highs and lows of football club support, and as lofty as the ideals are of people like yourself, who are newcomers, I know how to manage my expectations, and not fly off the handle when things don't go right.


One option is to cry for a change of manager/board or chairman, or the other is to do the one thing that this club has been crying out for - for over 30 years, and that is stability in club management. We have changed managers every 2-3 years for that period, and we have never achieved a fudging thing.


We now have had a manager for 3 years who has got us to the top end of the table, and kept us there - and now we have a cacophony of people who want shot of him, and have started touting all kinds of names from Mourinho (like we could afford him, or that he would want to come) to totally untried managers who have achieved a a season or 2 of getting clubs up and keeping them there.


Have your opinions, I don't agree, but I will never knock you for having them. But I will not sit idly by if you try to justify sacking the man who has produced the most exciting Spurs teams that I have had the privilege of watching - by adding facts up on one hand, and then speculating wildly on the other as to how those facts came about.

You criticise me for name calling, then you effectively call me a liar over my education, and produce a straw man to set fire t,o by claiming that I said I was a technical expert, something that I don't think I have ever done. I may be in comparison to some people, but its not a claim I have made here. I hardly demonstrate a balanced intellect eh? Okayyyy.

I don't recall shutting down opposing views to my own at all, I have only ever done a couple of things that I stand by. I have only ever plugged HRs achievements as a manager of this club, in terms of what he has achieved in his term, and I have only ever spoken out against peoples speculation and rumour mongering, slanderous insults about the guy - and self opinionated reasoning about his tenure as a manager. Facts I don't dispute, but when people seek to justify his sacking, which I fundamentally disagree with, by using little more than their uneducated an often ignorant opinions to substantiate their POV, then surely I have a right to point it out, or disagree.

You are one of the people I had a go at, and you have taken it badly and now you are trying, in a sadly childish way, to gang up on me.

Mick I have supported Spurs since 1980 when Keith Burkinshaw Hoddle, Roberts, Ardiles and Archibald were the Spurs heroes. We played some scinitilating stuff in those days and I truly idolised Glenn Hoddle.I remember the 92 Venables team post Gascoigne and Linekar which was so exciting which could have gone on to achieve something had Venables stuck to football. I have also seen the brick over the last 20 years. The fact is since 2004 when we had that disastrous period post Hoddle, Levy has had us on the up. I have respected pretty much all of his decisions including briniging in Ramos ( lets be honest after the Carling Cup final who would have predicted how that would have ended.) I even accepted begrudgingly bringing in Redknapp. At this point we have minus 1 or 2 players the best squad since Hoddle the player. I believe Redknapp is the man to stabilise but I have seen enough over the last 4 seasons to be convinced heis not the man to take this club forward particularly in big games.

This is his record

Season 1 stabilised and lose the carling cup final on penalties with HR claiming the team never practise penalties ( WTF?)
Season 2 his best season and I believe we overachieved with the squad we had at the time and finished 4th
Season 3 Finished 5th when we could and should have finished 4th if we hadn't collapsed after Christmas. Did well in the Champions league but bombed out in the other 2 cup tournaments including a horrific 4-0 surrender at Fulham.
Season 4 Finished 4th after being 13 points ahead of the weakest Arsenal team I have seen in ages who themselves struggled to beat wigan and QPR. Are a midfield of Arteta Rosicky Walnut Song and Benyaoun really better than Parker, Modric, Bale, Lennon and Sandro? In the period after Christmas I would turn up to games or listen on the radio with absolutely no idea if we would score a goal let alone win. The 5-1 at Wembley was just embarrassing. The season without Champions League or a Trophy was ultimately a failure - how else can it be measured?

I think we need to grasp the mettle at Spurs take a risk and try to get a manager who can inspire this team to be something great. We have been so use to failure at Spurs fans have developed an inferiority complex. fudge it we are Spurs one of the biggest clubs in England we deserve to be in the Champions League and winning trophies. Levy has worked miracles to get us where we are with our income stream I will continue to respect his decisions whatever he decides re: Harry.

 

[Robspur12]

The thing is, if we'd replaced Jol directly with Redknapp, lets say in the summer of 2007 after his 2nd 5th place finish, I think most of our support would have gone apebrick. And all the same arguments would be made as you make there. I don't really buy the 'stability' argument. You really need people capable of hitting the ground running. In that respect, I think we give previous managers and coaches too long, if anything.

Redknapp though, was someone who hit the ground running. He has standout achievements. Those writing off him do so at their peril IMO. It has happened to Wenger over recent years and on a lesser scale, David Moyes. Yet they keep coming back. I think Redknapp is in the same mould. He has had his wobbles where he has been written off but it is always turned around. You know with him we'll at the very least be in no danger of finishing outside the top 6 and certainly we'll never be down in the bottom half again IMO.

Sorry mate respect your posts, but that is b*ll*cks if we lose our star players we will be back to mid table mediocrity or worse. Are you aware of Harry's past record or is just the sugar coated FA Cup winning Portsmouth. He relegated Southampton and struggled in his last season at West Ham.

 

[Jordinho]

We talk about expecting loyalty, but at the same time we want managers to work their way up through the leagues, moving to bigger clubs once they've proven themselves.

 

[Pirate55]

Actually thats not true

I just took you to task over you trying to pass off your opinions as facts

I can deal with facts all day long, what I cant accept is the principle of looking at a set of facts, and then interpreting them in a way that suits your argument

For example.

Between the time that Capello resigned, and Hodgson was announced as his replacement the results were (fill in the details yourself, as I can't be bothered to dig them out) - and this is all down to the fact that HR was too busy showing his arse to the FA to get them to employ him, and that he lost interest in managing the club.

The results in the period are facts - the interpretation that follows is speculation and in my opinion a load of gonads. I have explained why I believe it happened ad nauseum and am not going to fall into the trap that I upbraided Mr Expert over.

I can deal with any amount of reasoned debate, and some of the negativity I actually agree with, but not the hysteria and dreamworld criticisms of someone who has produced the best set of consistent football, results and end of season finishes of any manager of the club since the early sixties. If in the intervening 50 years we had been producing dynamic football of the sort we saw at the beginning of this last season, or the fantastic stuff we were producing in the CL last season, coupled with table topping finishes, then I might even accept some of the unwarranted tosh that has been levelled at the man.

To a plastic fan like yourself, who supported another team for years, and then decided to support Spurs a few years ago, I realise that you probably know sod all about the history of Spurs, but I do - certainly back to the late 60s, when I started supporting the club. And the one thing that Spurs have done, is to prepare me for the highs and lows of football club support, and as lofty as the ideals are of people like yourself, who are newcomers, I know how to manage my expectations, and not fly off the handle when things don't go right.


One option is to cry for a change of manager/board or chairman, or the other is to do the one thing that this club has been crying out for - for over 30 years, and that is stability in club management. We have changed managers every 2-3 years for that period, and we have never achieved a fudging thing.


We now have had a manager for 3 years who has got us to the top end of the table, and kept us there - and now we have a cacophony of people who want shot of him, and have started touting all kinds of names from Mourinho (like we could afford him, or that he would want to come) to totally untried managers who have achieved a a season or 2 of getting clubs up and keeping them there.


Have your opinions, I don't agree, but I will never knock you for having them. But I will not sit idly by if you try to justify sacking the man who has produced the most exciting Spurs teams that I have had the privilege of watching - by adding facts up on one hand, and then speculating wildly on the other as to how those facts came about.

You criticise me for name calling, then you effectively call me a liar over my education, and produce a straw man to set fire t,o by claiming that I said I was a technical expert, something that I don't think I have ever done. I may be in comparison to some people, but its not a claim I have made here. I hardly demonstrate a balanced intellect eh? Okayyyy.

I don't recall shutting down opposing views to my own at all, I have only ever done a couple of things that I stand by. I have only ever plugged HRs achievements as a manager of this club, in terms of what he has achieved in his term, and I have only ever spoken out against peoples speculation and rumour mongering, slanderous insults about the guy - and self opinionated reasoning about his tenure as a manager. Facts I don't dispute, but when people seek to justify his sacking, which I fundamentally disagree with, by using little more than their uneducated an often ignorant opinions to substantiate their POV, then surely I have a right to point it out, or disagree.

You are one of the people I had a go at, and you have taken it badly and now you are trying, in a sadly childish way, to gang up on me.

dont you see the stupidity of your argument?

First, when I gave 15 reasonswhy I didnt think Rednapp was the greatest manager in the world, you accused me of passing these off as facts. Then you accused me (entirely unfairly) of "fabricating evidence", which I never did.

Now you say you have a problem with people using facts to suit their argument. That is one of the most fatuous arguments I have ever heard.

You wont even listen to perfectly reasoned debate put forward by DMac, BoL, Arc, AE and Rob12 just because it doesnt accord with your view of the world.

Instead of blasting tirades like the one above, why dont you listen for a change. You might learn something.

 

[parklane1]

I said you were divisive. Which you are.

I said you were a c***

if you filled in the asterisks and made an insult, then you did that for yourself

I'm quite comfortable with who I am, and the ground I stand on. I am also more than happy to discuss any of the things I believe in, in a rational and reasoned manner. I will articulate my points, deal with objections, and do my best to handle counter-arguments to my points of view.

You however, have done nothing in any thread to do that, beyond a constant stream of chippy little sentences, constantly needling and digging away. You promote division, and antagonise people with your trivial attempts at point scoring.

If its a reflection of how you behave in real life, and the way you conduct yourself in a face to face manner, I have to be brutally honest and wonder whether anyone has any respect for you. From my experience any discussions that are punctuated by an endless stream of chippy little divisive statements like yours, usually end up with everyone telling the source to STFU.

People like that usually get punched a lot as well. But that might just be because I keep the company of people with short fuses. And no, it doesn't happen to me.

Well that does surprise me, i suppose its that high horse you sit on looking down at everyone that makes it hard to do.

 

[Finney Is Back]

This is his record

Season 1 stabilised and lose the carling cup final on penalties with HR claiming the team never practise penalties ( WTF?)
Season 2 his best season and I believe we overachieved with the squad we had at the time and finished 4th
Season 3 Finished 5th when we could and should have finished 4th if we hadn't collapsed after Christmas. Did well in the Champions league but bombed out in the other 2 cup tournaments including a horrific 4-0 surrender at Fulham.
Season 4 Finished 4th after being 13 points ahead of the weakest Arsenal team I have seen in ages who themselves struggled to beat wigan and QPR. Are a midfield of Arteta Rosicky Walnut Song and Benyaoun really better than Parker, Modric, Bale, Lennon and Sandro? In the period after Christmas I would turn up to games or listen on the radio with absolutely no idea if we would score a goal let alone win. The 5-1 at Wembley was just embarrassing. The season without Champions League or a Trophy was ultimately a failure - how else can it be measured?

Or on the other hand....

Season 1. Dragged us up from bottom of the table when he got here to midtable respectability and a Carling Cup final where we were beaten on pens by Man Utd after probably shading the game overall.

Season 2. Massively over achieved to finish 4th. Nobody expected us to finish ahead of Liverpool or Emirates Marketing Project. Should've beaten Portsmouth in the FA Cup semi final but for a shocking refereeing decision and a slip from Dawson.

Season 3. Finished 5th while having a good run in the Champions League. Nobody expected Spurs to qualify from our group - we did. Nobody expected us to beat AC Milan over two legs - we did. Then we bombed out to Real Madrid after going down to 10 men early in the game. The fifth place finish in the league was about where we were expected to finish, possibly one place higher as we finished above Liverpool.

Season 4. Finished 4th. Equalling our best ever premiership season and ensuring our most consistent 3 years of league finishes since the sixties. Played some of the best football in the league and were a joy to watch at times. Voted the best team to watch by 12 of the 16 managers who voted. Lost to Chelsea after dominating the first half then conceding a Didier Drogba wonder goal and then Chelsea being given a goal that never was. Came back to 2-1 but had to continue to play open to chase the game allowing gaps at the back for Chelsea to exploit as the game went on.

Season 1. Overachieved in the league (based on where we were when Redknapp joined)
Season 2. Overachieved in the league. Unlucky in the FA Cup
Season 3. Level par in the league. Overachieved in the Champions League. Under achieved in the FA Cup.
Season 4. Overachieved in the league. Level par in the FA Cup, under achieved in the UEFA Cup.

All of the above achieved playing fast, attacking, great to watch football from a combination of players already at the club that have really found their form under Harry and good signings made by Harry.

He's not perfect - but he is a lot, lot better than most of the alternatives. I can say hand on my heart that I haven't enjoyed going to WHL as much as I did this season for a long while (probably since the Klinsmann days!.... and this team is a lot more competetive than that one in terms of our results!)

 

[Finney Is Back]

[/B]

Sorry mate respect your posts, but that is b*ll*cks if we lose our star players we will be back to mid table mediocrity or worse. Are you aware of Harry's past record or is just the sugar coated FA Cup winning Portsmouth. He relegated Southampton and struggled in his last season at West Ham.

If we lost our star players (lets assume here you mean Bale and Modric and possibly Adebayor?) we would get a huge amount of money for the two that we own. We would then spend that money on replacements. I would be surprised if those replacements were not very good players. Generally the money that Harry has spent at Spurs has been wisely spent. Each of the players he paid money to purchase have improved us either for a short term to get us out of a situation or over a longer term..... Walker, Kaboul, Kranjcar, Parker, Palacios, Van Der Vaart, Sandro, Crouch, Defoe - all have played a part.... Keane was a mistake - but Harry bought him when we were in the bottom 3 of the league on the last day of the transfer window and Defoe had just picked up an injury.

 

[Robspur12]

Or on the other hand....

Season 1. Dragged us up from bottom of the table when he got here to midtable respectability and a Carling Cup final where we were beaten on pens by Man Utd after probably shading the game overall.

Season 2. Massively over achieved to finish 4th. Nobody expected us to finish ahead of Liverpool or Emirates Marketing Project. Should've beaten Portsmouth in the FA Cup semi final but for a shocking refereeing decision and a slip from Dawson.

Season 3. Finished 5th while having a good run in the Champions League. Nobody expected Spurs to qualify from our group - we did. Nobody expected us to beat AC Milan over two legs - we did. Then we bombed out to Real Madrid after going down to 10 men early in the game. The fifth place finish in the league was about where we were expected to finish, possibly one place higher as we finished above Liverpool.

Season 4. Finished 4th. Equalling our best ever premiership season and ensuring our most consistent 3 years of league finishes since the sixties. Played some of the best football in the league and were a joy to watch at times. Voted the best team to watch by 12 of the 16 managers who voted. Lost to Chelsea after dominating the first half then conceding a Didier Drogba wonder goal and then Chelsea being given a goal that never was. Came back to 2-1 but had to continue to play open to chase the game allowing gaps at the back for Chelsea to exploit as the game went on.

Season 1. Overachieved in the league (based on where we were when Redknapp joined)
Season 2. Overachieved in the league. Unlucky in the FA Cup
Season 3. Level par in the league. Overachieved in the Champions League. Under achieved in the FA Cup.
Season 4. Overachieved in the league. Level par in the FA Cup, under achieved in the UEFA Cup.

All of the above achieved playing fast, attacking, great to watch football from a combination of players already at the club that have really found their form under Harry and good signings made by Harry.

He's not perfect - but he is a lot, lot better than most of the alternatives. I can say hand on my heart that I haven't enjoyed going to WHL as much as I did this season for a long while (probably since the Klinsmann days!.... and this team is a lot more competetive than that one in terms of our results!)

Agree with 1 and 2 and that we did well in the Champions league in Season 3 but we bombed out of the other cup competitions and 4th was definately on. Liverpool were all over the place and Emirates Marketing Project were incredibaly inconsistent. As for overachieving this season - I really think this is an example of the inferiority complex I keep talking about. Practically everyone predicted after the everton game in Jan we would finish top 3. Even Harry started believing it going on about London's top team and Title contenders.

Imho Moyes is the better manager and I would be happy to see him at Spurs. Takes lower league players and makes them overachieve (Cahill, Jagielka, Lescott). Got the best out of Pienaar where Redknapp could n't. In general does not build a squad of has beens, never been relegated despite having a small budget. Also does not slag off everton fans who have questioned him in the bad times.

As for enjoying going to WHL - may be at the start but can you really say that since Saudi Sportswashing Machine in February? It was all too reminiscent of the brick of the 90s and early noughties. Can't say I enjoyed watching Holt and Co tearing us a new arseh*le

 

[Robspur12]

If we lost our star players (lets assume here you mean Bale and Modric and possibly Adebayor?) we would get a huge amount of money for the two that we own. We would then spend that money on replacements. I would be surprised if those replacements were not very good players. Generally the money that Harry has spent at Spurs has been wisely spent. Each of the players he paid money to purchase have improved us either for a short term to get us out of a situation or over a longer term..... Walker, Kaboul, Kranjcar, Parker, Palacios, Van Der Vaart, Sandro, Crouch, Defoe - all have played a part.... Keane was a mistake - but Harry bought him when we were in the bottom 3 of the league on the last day of the transfer window and Defoe had just picked up an injury.

Have you been a Spurs fan for the last 20 year? When have we lost good players and not gone through a "transition period?" You cannot simply lose 3 major players and say we will carry on as before. Imho Redknapps record in the transfer market has been generally hit and miss. Most of the players you mentioned either gone or going and why bring in Pienaar if you had no plan for fitting him in your side? Don't think youcan count VDV for reasons discussed many times previously and didn't sandro come from internacional in Brazil who we have established special links with? Oh and as for the shambles that was the Jan 2012 transfer window...

 

[Robspur12]

Redknapp reminds me of Keegan. Great man manager, limited tactical knowledge. to be a great manager you need both otherwise you will never rise to the occasion consistently in the big games. The odious Ken Bates described how at Chelsea they laughed at us as the "nearly" men of London when we lost the 2002 Carling Cup. We are unfortunately still there and it hurt this season to know C*nts like him will be laughing to themselves again at our misfortune. I so want to ram those words down their throats and have a manager who feels that passion like us.

 

[mick cooper]

Well that does surprise me, i suppose its that high horse you sit on looking down at everyone that makes it hard to do.

QED
again

 

[mick cooper]

dont you see the stupidity of your argument?

First, when I gave 15 reasonswhy I didnt think Rednapp was the greatest manager in the world, you accused me of passing these off as facts. Then you accused me (entirely unfairly) of "fabricating evidence", which I never did.

Now you say you have a problem with people using facts to suit their argument. That is one of the most fatuous arguments I have ever heard.

You wont even listen to perfectly reasoned debate put forward by DMac, BoL, Arc, AE and Rob12 just because it doesnt accord with your view of the world.

Instead of blasting tirades like the one above, why dont you listen for a change. You might learn something.

You are obsessing. You will never accept my point of view, because you don't want to.

Now you are accusing me of ignoring points of view put by other posters, what makes you think I read every post on this board, much less feel compelled to comment on them?

If people make reasonable points that stand for themselves, then why should I have to argue the toss with them? If people make well reasoned arguments, why should I start disagreeing, its their opinion and they are entitled to hold them.

I have an opinion as I said, and I have made my POV clear, I am not going to repeat it in every thread just to make constant noise.

You however didn't make reasoned points, or present facts. You simply trotted out hackneyed opinions, misconceptions and piffle - in my opinion. I asked you for facts and you listed a load of opinions.

The simple fact is, your line of argument was weak and easily attacked, furthermore I did not say that I had a problem with people using facts to support their argument, but only if they misrepresent them to support their argument.

What the fudge am I going to learn from you, Brightons line up in the 1965 season?

I'm certainly not going to learn too much about football from you, not based on what I've read so far.

 

[Pirate55]

QED
again

Well done Mick. You and you alone are the self appointed arbiter of good sense, wise opinions, sound judgement and debate winning. Hooray for you. You must be soooo proud.

 

[mick cooper]

Well that does surprise me, i suppose its that high horse you sit on looking down at everyone that makes it hard to do.

no just you

but thats easy

you consistently have nothing to say

 

[mick cooper]

Well done Mick. You and you alone are the self appointed arbiter of good sense, wise opinions, sound judgement and debate winning. Hooray for you. You must be soooo proud.

I feel no sense of achievement debating anything with either of you. No more so than arguing with my 4 year old, for example.

Again, your ad hominem approach at addressing anything I have to say founders in the smoke of the burning straw man arguments you come up with.

 

[Spursalot]

It is going to be a really really long summer if this is discussed for the next two/three months, because none of you are going to get any new 'ammunition' to beat the other side into submission with...

 

[mick cooper]

It is going to be a really really long summer if this is discussed for the next two/three months, because none of you are going to get any new 'ammunition' to beat the other side into submission with...

I'm not trying to, I'm being stalked here, in case you hadn't noticed

I would be more than happy to never have to engage with either of them again.