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Putin & Russia

It is massively complex this Ukraine situation. To understand it you have to look at the history and how we got here. I don't think there is an empire in the world who has been noble and benevolent. Russia is an empire, and most think the US has been too. It started out taking land from the native Indians. That doesn't justify Russia's actions. But there are complexities. Not least the West's involvement pulling ex-soviet republics away from Russia around a decade ago. It probably set off a chain of events that has led us here.
 
SpurMeUp said:
It is massively complex this Ukraine situation. To understand it you have to look at the history and how we got here. I don't think there is an empire in the world who has been noble and benevolent. Russia is an empire, and most think the US has been too. It started out taking land from the native Indians. That doesn't justify Russia's actions. But there are complexities. Not least the West's involvement pulling ex-soviet republics away from Russia around a decade ago. It probably set off a chain of events that has led us here.
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I'm struggling to think of any complexities in this case that justify sending in troops to another sovereign nation.
 
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SpurMeUp said:
It is massively complex this Ukraine situation. To understand it you have to look at the history and how we got here. I don't think there is an empire in the world who has been noble and benevolent. Russia is an empire, and most think the US has been too. It started out taking land from the native Indians. That doesn't justify Russia's actions. But there are complexities. Not least the West's involvement pulling ex-soviet republics away from Russia around a decade ago. It probably set off a chain of events that has led us here.
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Not really. It's a bit like a United Ireland having come into place in 1921, and now England suddenly deciding to invade East Belfast
 
scaramanga said:
I'm struggling to think of any complexities in this case that justify sending in troops to another sovereign nation.
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I don't believe I said the complexities did justify sending in troops. As Gutterboy alludes to, when empires give back territories, it is rarely simple. 30 years ago Ukraine was part of a Russian empire. Like Ireland, some people identify as Russian and others as Ukrainian. Everyone speaks Russian in Ukraine, and some speak Ukrainian and Russian. Ukraine was aligned with Russia strategically, with an elected pro-Russian president. Russia provided it with cheap energy and Ukraine was expected to be supportive and aligned with Russia. Both US funding of separatist groups culminating in the revolution, and EU support of Ukraine moving towards Europe away from Russia, was the start of this current situation. It is highly complex, and there aren't simple answers. It will likely rumble on for decades now.
 
SpurMeUp said:
I don't believe I said the complexities did justify sending in troops. As Gutterboy alludes to, when empires give back territories, it is rarely simple. 30 years ago Ukraine was part of a Russian empire. Like Ireland, some people identify as Russian and others as Ukrainian. Everyone speaks Russian in Ukraine, and some speak Ukrainian and Russian. Ukraine was aligned with Russia strategically, with an elected pro-Russian president. Russia provided it with cheap energy and Ukraine was expected to be supportive and aligned with Russia. Both US funding of separatist groups culminating in the revolution, and EU support of Ukraine moving towards Europe away from Russia, was the start of this current situation. It is highly complex, and there aren't simple answers. It will likely rumble on for decades now.
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That doesn't sound at all complex.

What it sounds like is the natural evolution of a nation leaving the kindergarten and joining in with the grown ups.

I'm sure Russia doesn't like countries that used to be part of its empire joining the rest of the world. I'm equally sure that what those countries do is none of it's fudging business.
 
scaramanga said:
If you want to swap the word tanks for troops, that's fine. It doesn't alter the point.

What proportion of French people do you think were in the Resistance? I'd guess at less than 1%. That doesn't mean French people were happy with being invaded, it just meant that most people preferred going along with it to having their families shot.
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Independent surveys after 2014 show the preferences to be part of Russia, there is no-one being taken away and shot or threatened if they place a mark against it. And yes, for sure there are people living there who don't like what happened, that is perfectly natural of course. Unfortunately the racial discrimination against Tatars still happens, but then again the world is full of discrimination these days :(

Russia has improved Crimea a hell of a lot since 2014, there is a very marked difference in the quality and standard of life there now vs before.
And just to reiterate, I don't support the annexation but I do understand why.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
I can not say why people voted for Brexit, only why I did.

I think Putin is very dangerous but if the remoaners taught us anything it is that those who want self determination are obviously racist.
Sovereignty itself is very racist and to be demeaned. We saw that this week in the politics thread when people were talking about the importing of foie gras. Sovereignty and wanting it is for the stupid right? This has been the central argument to your lot for years. Be consistent gents.
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So little to do with the actual situation in Ukraine or Putin? More a reaction to someone at some point saying something you find stupid in a different conversation?

Not sure who "your lot" is. I don't think everyone that wants sovereignty is racist. But I do think racism, systemic racism and unconscious biases are real issues and I do think it's often factors worth considering.

If anyone here agrees with your description of what "our lot" thinks - that everyone that wants self determination are racists, I guess your disagreement is mainly with them.
 
scaramanga said:
For @Trixster and anyone else struggling to get to grips with the stages involved in independence, it goes as follows:

  1. State wants independence
  2. State votes on independence
  3. State is independent
You know what's missing from all of those stages? Russian tanks.

Russian tanks involved before, during or after any of those stages makes the entire process illegitimate.
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As we've seen around the world the process from step 1 to 2 in that is often rather complex if not impossible in the short term at least.

That, to me, obviously does not in any way justify what Putin is currently up to. Whatever he's actually up to.

Not just the current tanks or ground troops. The entire process. Putin is an old school expansionist, imperialist, anti democratic bastard. Only restrained from reaching his full bastard capacity through the sheer existance of the modern world around him. He should be resisted by any way deemed safe and appropriate.
 
Trixster said:
Independent surveys after 2014 show the preferences to be part of Russia, there is no-one being taken away and shot or threatened if they place a mark against it. And yes, for sure there are people living there who don't like what happened, that is perfectly natural of course. Unfortunately the racial discrimination against Tatars still happens, but then again the world is full of discrimination these days :(

Russia has improved Crimea a hell of a lot since 2014, there is a very marked difference in the quality and standard of life there now vs before.
And just to reiterate, I don't support the annexation but I do understand why.
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The presence of Russian military before, during and after the vote makes a mockery of the word independent.

I'll try again in plainer language. If external military forces are involved, it's impossible to have a fair and honest vote.
 
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scaramanga said:
Call me paranoid but since we've been having this discussion I've had to reject signups from more bots than I have in the last year.

May have to check @Trixster and @SpurMeUp IPs against those bot farms ;)
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And there I was thinking you were the Russian agent. It was hard to turn down shares in the Siberian diamond mine, all held via an offshore concern naturally. How many of the UK establishment have been turned into 'assets' in such a fashion do you think?
 
Trixster said:
Crimea held elections after the annexation, 90% of the populace felt strongly attached to Russia and they always have even since the hand-off by Khrushchev (most of the Tatars left during/after the various wars), and while I have no doubts it was just a show - they voted to become a Republic in Russia. The West refuses to acknowledge this, likewise with the one they did in Georgia, and they would refuse the same for Donbass as well so we'd get nowhere :(
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The Tartars didn’t “leave” they were ethnically cleansed. Way before Putin in fairness.
 
Trixster said:
Crimea held elections after the annexation, 90% of the populace felt strongly attached to Russia and they always have even since the hand-off by Khrushchev (most of the Tatars left during/after the various wars), and while I have no doubts it was just a show - they voted to become a Republic in Russia. The West refuses to acknowledge this, likewise with the one they did in Georgia, and they would refuse the same for Donbass as well so we'd get nowhere :(
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As fudged up as it is, you'd have a mandate to take it by force - sort of.
 
anyone see that Russian news footage of a journalist supposedly being shelled by Ukrainian forces, he's on a quiet street with a film crew, and someone lets a load of funs snaps off 100 yards away before he dives into a hedge
 
Baleforce said:
anyone see that Russian news footage of a journalist supposedly being shelled by Ukrainian forces, he's on a quiet street with a film crew, and someone lets a load of funs snaps off 100 yards away before he dives into a hedge
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I'll go and have a look....
Or a......pwoppa Ganda....

Waka! Waka!
 
Baleforce said:
anyone see that Russian news footage of a journalist supposedly being shelled by Ukrainian forces, he's on a quiet street with a film crew, and someone lets a load of funs snaps off 100 yards away before he dives into a hedge
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There's a propaganda video the Russians are touting as fresh front line footage that savvy Finns have spotted as being at least 10 years old and used when they were in a propaganda-filled dispute with Russia. Just Google the expression ' Russia Dumb and Lazy'.

If I could fire a Russian in retaliation I would. But the ex-pat Russians I deal with - and there's plenty in Toronto - all hate what Russia has become and represents under Putin. Gotta love people with that attitude.
 
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