Politics, politics, politics

[Danishfurniturelover]

https://www.capitalandconflict.com/brexit/ten-reasons-to-leave-eu/

Totally agree with this guys comments about Africa https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ad...nVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=3GjwDFAeZfeXeQTjIa4r-A

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ritain-eu-referendum-better-off-a7332036.html odd to come from the Independent but I guess they are making a fob of trying to look impartial, like how in the early days after the referendum remainers were trying to sound fair and equal by saying they could see points about leaving, only as time has gone on has their true hatred undemocratic views come out more and more.

Innovation and new fresh ideas love it https://capx.co/how-britain-can-use-brexit-to-revamp-its-tax-system/

Cutting customs duties should be an early priority for the Government after Brexit. We can only do this outside the Customs Union, so it is essential that we leave it. The primary reason the EU levies its common customs tariff is to defend European industries from foreign competition. Tariffs mean we pay extra for Australian wine and olive oil. Butter from New Zealand and cars from America are more expensive than they should be. Furthermore, most of the revenue from these duties is currently paid over to Brussels. The effect is that UK shoppers are paying extra in the supermarket on everything from sugar to rice, for the privilege of making our own businesses less competitive.

Changes to the way we tax interest could help make the UK even more attractive to overseas investors. For example, abolishing withholding tax on interest would be a quick win for the UK financial services industry. If you pay interest from the UK to someone living overseas, you have to deduct income tax and hand it on to HM Revenue & Customs. Thankfully, there are plenty of exemptions from the requirement to deduct tax. Companies commonly issue a bond listed on a stock exchange on which they can pay the interest gross. And the UK has agreed tax treaties with many countries to mutually reduce levels of withholding tax. Unfortunately, applying these exemptions costs money and if you are paying interest to lots of people, it is often not worth it.

Interesting to note that all the talk of the clearing bonds business moving to mainland Europe has slowed down, apparently some of them has said it would be to difficult and not worth the hassle and would rather take the small hit of paying extra charges. Also the City should be looking towards China and the far east for the growth in financial services.

Maybe we take a short term hit in a few areas, but long term growth and opportunities await us.

 

[scaramanga]

https://www.capitalandconflict.com/brexit/ten-reasons-to-leave-eu/

Totally agree with this guys comments about Africa https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ad...nVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=3GjwDFAeZfeXeQTjIa4r-A

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ritain-eu-referendum-better-off-a7332036.html odd to come from the Independent but I guess they are making a fob of trying to look impartial, like how in the early days after the referendum remainers were trying to sound fair and equal by saying they could see points about leaving, only as time has gone on has their true hatred undemocratic views come out more and more.

Innovation and new fresh ideas love it https://capx.co/how-britain-can-use-brexit-to-revamp-its-tax-system/

Cutting customs duties should be an early priority for the Government after Brexit. We can only do this outside the Customs Union, so it is essential that we leave it. The primary reason the EU levies its common customs tariff is to defend European industries from foreign competition. Tariffs mean we pay extra for Australian wine and olive oil. Butter from New Zealand and cars from America are more expensive than they should be. Furthermore, most of the revenue from these duties is currently paid over to Brussels. The effect is that UK shoppers are paying extra in the supermarket on everything from sugar to rice, for the privilege of making our own businesses less competitive.

Changes to the way we tax interest could help make the UK even more attractive to overseas investors. For example, abolishing withholding tax on interest would be a quick win for the UK financial services industry. If you pay interest from the UK to someone living overseas, you have to deduct income tax and hand it on to HM Revenue & Customs. Thankfully, there are plenty of exemptions from the requirement to deduct tax. Companies commonly issue a bond listed on a stock exchange on which they can pay the interest gross. And the UK has agreed tax treaties with many countries to mutually reduce levels of withholding tax. Unfortunately, applying these exemptions costs money and if you are paying interest to lots of people, it is often not worth it.

Interesting to note that all the talk of the clearing bonds business moving to mainland Europe has slowed down, apparently some of them has said it would be to difficult and not worth the hassle and would rather take the small hit of paying extra charges. Also the City should be looking towards China and the far east for the growth in financial services.

Maybe we take a short term hit in a few areas, but long term growth and opportunities await us.

In reference to one of your last points there, I was chatting with an investor on Friday.

He was telling me how there's a lot of wealth being shifted out of the UK right now. Not because of Brexit but because our Shadow Chancellor keeps mentioning wealth in the same breath as taxation.

Services that were once only really aimed at the very rich are now being marketed at "normal" people who just want to protect their pension pots or a second home.

 

[Hootnow]

In reference to one of your last points there, I was chatting with an investor on Friday.

He was telling me how there's a lot of wealth being shifted out of the UK right now. Not because of Brexit but because our Shadow Chancellor keeps mentioning wealth in the same breath as taxation.

Services that were once only really aimed at the very rich are now being marketed at "normal" people who just want to protect their pension pots or a second home.

Of course it isn't down to Brexit Scara, it just happens to be at the exact same time.....

And they're terrified of the shadow chancellor when there is no realistic chance of an election any time soon or indeed any real chance of this country electing Corbyn and his team.

 

[scaramanga]

Of course it isn't down to Brexit Scara, it just happens to be at the exact same time.....

And they're terrified of the shadow chancellor when there is no realistic chance of an election any time soon or indeed any real chance of this country electing Corbyn and his team.

It's what he does for a living and is very good at it.

If that's his opinion then I'm buying it.

 

[Hootnow]

It's what he does for a living and is very good at it.

If that's his opinion then I'm buying it.

It is the opinion of many of the business leaders who have drawn up plans to leave the UK or reduce investment in the UK following the increased likelihood of us careening to a no deal Brexit that our current path is what is leading to their decisions but that for some reason seems to get ignored.

An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and I'm surprised to see you of all people use it, considering your opinion when people use it in the realms of football. It is also particularly strange considering that it isn't like there is consensus across business leaders regarding Brexit (and that is even excluding the hypocrites like Dyson).

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Of course it isn't down to Brexit Scara, it just happens to be at the exact same time.....

And they're terrified of the shadow chancellor when there is no realistic chance of an election any time soon or indeed any real chance of this country electing Corbyn and his team.

Dont know when an election will be, May said last time she would not call one then suddenly did. I think the is a real chance of a Corbyn victory, he got close last time. We also have had 10 years of the tories in power and the public like a change now and again.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

It is the opinion of many of the business leaders who have drawn up plans to leave the UK or reduce investment in the UK following the increased likelihood of us careening to a no deal Brexit that our current path is what is leading to their decisions but that for some reason seems to get ignored.

An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and I'm surprised to see you of all people use it, considering your opinion when people use it in the realms of football. It is also particularly strange considering that it isn't like there is consensus across business leaders regarding Brexit (and that is even excluding the hypocrites like Dyson).

Why is Dyson a hypocrite, he is still in this country. But for world wide expansion he is basing some of his business in the far east, seems sensible to me.

 

[Hootnow]

Why is Dyson a hypocrite, he is still in this country. But for world wide expansion he is basing some of his business in the far east, seems sensible to me.

Because such a proponent of Brexit and thinks we hold the aces in negotiation and should walk away to force them to come crawling to us and yet I believe is moving the production of electric cars to Asia (and chose to do so last year) and has also decided to move his HQ to Singapore so that his main tax base is there (ie no longer in the UK). Surely this should be the time for such a big proponent of Brexit and the opportunities it will give us to be ploughing money into such a great situation?

 

[Hootnow]

Dont know when an election will be, May said last time she would not call one then suddenly did. I think the is a real chance of a Corbyn victory, he got close last time. We also have had 10 years of the tories in power and the public like a change now and again.

I like a lot of Corbyn's policies but the reality is that we had 10 years of horrific austerity in this country, a general drop in living standards across the board, two of the worst PMs in recent history and a terrible handling of Brexit (which I think is pretty crappy anyway but that's a different point) and he still lost. Yes he did better than the wipeout that was predicted but he lost the election. I'm struggling to see what is so impressive or his path to victory.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Because such a proponent of Brexit and thinks we hold the aces in negotiation and should walk away to force them to come crawling to us and yet I believe is moving the production of electric cars to Asia (and chose to do so last year) and has also decided to move his HQ to Singapore so that his main tax base is there (ie no longer in the UK). Surely this should be the time for such a big proponent of Brexit and the opportunities it will give us to be ploughing money into such a great situation?

Think it is more about being a global company, something I understand and support. The world is bigger then just Europe.

 

[scaramanga]

It is the opinion of many of the business leaders who have drawn up plans to leave the UK or reduce investment in the UK following the increased likelihood of us careening to a no deal Brexit that our current path is what is leading to their decisions but that for some reason seems to get ignored.

An appeal to authority is a logical fallacy and I'm surprised to see you of all people use it, considering your opinion when people use it in the realms of football. It is also particularly strange considering that it isn't like there is consensus across business leaders regarding Brexit (and that is even excluding the hypocrites like Dyson).

The only appeal to authority there is taking his word that the reasoning of his clients is what he says it is.

As I don't know those clients but he regularly meets them, I don't think that's an unfair assumption.

 

[Hootnow]

https://www.capitalandconflict.com/brexit/ten-reasons-to-leave-eu/

Totally agree with this guys comments about Africa https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/ad...nVrLw&guce_referrer_cs=3GjwDFAeZfeXeQTjIa4r-A

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/22/20-reasons-you-should-vote-to-leave-the-european-union/

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ritain-eu-referendum-better-off-a7332036.html odd to come from the Independent but I guess they are making a fob of trying to look impartial, like how in the early days after the referendum remainers were trying to sound fair and equal by saying they could see points about leaving, only as time has gone on has their true hatred undemocratic views come out more and more.

Innovation and new fresh ideas love it https://capx.co/how-britain-can-use-brexit-to-revamp-its-tax-system/

Cutting customs duties should be an early priority for the Government after Brexit. We can only do this outside the Customs Union, so it is essential that we leave it. The primary reason the EU levies its common customs tariff is to defend European industries from foreign competition. Tariffs mean we pay extra for Australian wine and olive oil. Butter from New Zealand and cars from America are more expensive than they should be. Furthermore, most of the revenue from these duties is currently paid over to Brussels. The effect is that UK shoppers are paying extra in the supermarket on everything from sugar to rice, for the privilege of making our own businesses less competitive.

Changes to the way we tax interest could help make the UK even more attractive to overseas investors. For example, abolishing withholding tax on interest would be a quick win for the UK financial services industry. If you pay interest from the UK to someone living overseas, you have to deduct income tax and hand it on to HM Revenue & Customs. Thankfully, there are plenty of exemptions from the requirement to deduct tax. Companies commonly issue a bond listed on a stock exchange on which they can pay the interest gross. And the UK has agreed tax treaties with many countries to mutually reduce levels of withholding tax. Unfortunately, applying these exemptions costs money and if you are paying interest to lots of people, it is often not worth it.

Interesting to note that all the talk of the clearing bonds business moving to mainland Europe has slowed down, apparently some of them has said it would be to difficult and not worth the hassle and would rather take the small hit of paying extra charges. Also the City should be looking towards China and the far east for the growth in financial services.

Maybe we take a short term hit in a few areas, but long term growth and opportunities await us.

Mate, I'm not going to go too deep into your post or the links. I don't really have the time to get involved in long winded discussions about politics anymore and frankly, I think I'm in a minority with regards to my views on this board, which only increases the risk of the former. Plus realsitically I know your thoughts on the EU and at this point, not many are changing their opinion.

But I have to say, the huffington post article is particularly poor. I frankly couldn't care less whether the guy is working class or mixed race or whatever, it doesn't mean he can't speak utter nonsense.

The EU is anti democratic? Perhaps if the population of the UK took the elections slightly more seriously and didn't just elect Farage to go and insult other European countries or Hunt to compare the EU to the Soviet Union, considering the EU has many members who were actually....under the yoke of the actual Soviet Union, we'd have more representation. And as I've said many times on this board, the UK's electoral system is anti democratic. My vote (now I've made the mistake of coming back to the UK again) is in one of the safest Tory seats in the country. I vote every 5 years and it makes literally fudge all difference to the Tory dingdong who represents my constituency. Then you have dingdongs like JRM one minute talk about how parliament should not have a say on Brexit and then once the ability to do so is won by a lawyer, helps to vote down May's deal with his ERG.

True, the EU does 'discriminate' against people from other countries (though it is not White Europeans, considering that a significant minority of Europe's population is....not white. Mamadou the black Frenchman can move to the UK just as easily as Mesut the Turkish German and just as easily as Antoine or Hermann can. But yes, it is easier for a Frenchman to come than a Nigerian. He is living in cloud cuckoo land though if he thinks that will change with Brexit or the politicians/ public would accept a significantly different immigration policy. Look at how vote leave used the bogey man of Turkey during the campaign. Or I only need to look at the significantly increased rate of racism I have experienced since Brexit, including from patients (with Brexit sometimes being mentioned) to know that the UK isn't suddenly going to become so much more accepting of non white immigrants. (And no, I am not saying everyone or even the majority of people who voted for Brexit are racist).

Again, agreed that the EU's current approach to Africa is reprehensible. Fully agreed. Though he's delusional if he thinks the UK isn't making a pretty penny from that and won't continue to throw its weight around to take advantage of poorer nations.

Also agree that the EU is a corporatist club. Ironically again, the UK is probably one of the most corporate countries in there and this dream of some kind of left wing exit from the EU is a dream. Look at the current party, look at their rhetoric, look at some of the ways people have suggested we could deal with a no deal Brexit and then please explain to me how we're going to become less corporate, more protective of workers rights with Brexit?

The EU is irrelevent to trade is genuinely one of the stupidest things I have ever read in my life. Its good to be global, I want the UK to be global. However, many countries (especially those with advanced economies) will have their closer neighbours as amongst their biggest trading partners. And most of them are in....a trade association with their partners. Apparently we're different though.


Incidentally, Trump is a shark and the USA are sharks. We will get savaged by them if we leave without a deal and attempt to negotiate a meaningful trade deal.

I've always been a remainer, won't hide that. I've always also thought there are some big problems with the EU. I think that many of these problems will get worse with Brexit. I guess we will see though. I hope the UK becomes a global player with beneficial bilateral trade deals, cultural exchange, workers rights and an open, tolerant approach to immigration, then great, count me in. Colour me skeptical though and most of the types who I've met who support Brexit don't exactly fill me with hope either.

 

[Hootnow]

Think it is more about being a global company, something I understand and support. The world is bigger then just Europe.

Nobody said anything about Europe or it being the world. He can (and already does have) a global company and within the space of 12 months, all post Brexit, he has decided to move an arm of manufacturing abroad and his entire HQ abroad so he no longer has to pay tax in the UK. You can be a global company and be based in the UK or the EU.

 

[Hootnow]

The only appeal to authority there is taking his word that the reasoning of his clients is what he says it is.

As I don't know those clients but he regularly meets them, I don't think that's an unfair assumption.

You literally said that it is what he does for a living, is very good at it and subsequently that you'd be buying his opinion, with the only qualifying statements preceding that being those descriptions of him.

Its essentially saying 'Mourinho is a football manager for a living (insert your football manager of choice) and is very good at it. Likely significantly better in his field than this investor is in his.

Therefore, if x is his opinion, I will believe everything Mourinho says, even if it is at complete odds with what someone else in the field may so, purely because of his authority in the field.

 

[scaramanga]

You literally said that it is what he does for a living, is very good at it and subsequently that you'd be buying his opinion, with the only qualifying statements preceding that being those descriptions of him.

Its essentially saying 'Mourinho is a football manager for a living (insert your football manager of choice) and is very good at it. Likely significantly better in his field than this investor is in his.

Therefore, if x is his opinion, I will believe everything Mourinho says, even if it is at complete odds with what someone else in the field may so, purely because of his authority in the field.

That analogy isn't correct.

A better one is "Mourinho is a football manager and I don't know many footballers. So when he tells me what his footballers are thinking, I believe him"

I'm not claiming any judgment call on Brexit from him, he hasn't made one. What he has told me is what his clients are telling him, what he's doing about it and how the people he works for are altering their marketing strategy to take that into account.

 

[Hootnow]

That analogy isn't correct.

A better one is "Mourinho is a football manager and I don't know many footballers. So when he tells me what his footballers are thinking, I believe him"

I'm not claiming any judgment call on Brexit from him, he hasn't made one. What he has told me is what his clients are telling him, what he's doing about it and how the people he works for are altering their marketing strategy to take that into account.

So either way, you are still making an appeal to authority then?

As I said above, it would certainly be very strange for these investors to be running scared of a potential Labour win, a win they have shown no signs of getting (and as I pointed out above, Corbyn and Mcdonnell went against a Tory party 10 years deep into a harsh austerity programme, with a shambolic handling of Brexit (arguably a shambolic process in and of itself), with two of the worst PMs in recent history and....still managed to lose? So what's changed?

And yet the actual process of Brexit, which is going on currently, which we are now mere days away from, where we don't have a deal and which has had a discernible impact on the value of the pound already, isn't what is on their minds?

I personally don't know many CEOs of companies but that doesn't mean I automatically believe good old Dyson when he talks about how great Brexit is going to be, especially as he shifts his own company's wealth out of the UK and then ignore what other business leaders are saying.

Out of interest, what is this investor's view on Brexit?

I wouldn't imagine you know many footballers or managers either, especially top level ones, yet you were literally passing judgement on the opinions of pundits in a thread just a few days ago?

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Mate, I'm not going to go too deep into your post or the links. I don't really have the time to get involved in long winded discussions about politics anymore and frankly, I think I'm in a minority with regards to my views on this board, which only increases the risk of the former. Plus realsitically I know your thoughts on the EU and at this point, not many are changing their opinion.

But I have to say, the huffington post article is particularly poor. I frankly couldn't care less whether the guy is working class or mixed race or whatever, it doesn't mean he can't speak utter nonsense.

The EU is anti democratic? Perhaps if the population of the UK took the elections slightly more seriously and didn't just elect Farage to go and insult other European countries or Hunt to compare the EU to the Soviet Union, considering the EU has many members who were actually....under the yoke of the actual Soviet Union, we'd have more representation. And as I've said many times on this board, the UK's electoral system is anti democratic. My vote (now I've made the mistake of coming back to the UK again) is in one of the safest Tory seats in the country. I vote every 5 years and it makes literally fudge all difference to the Tory dingdong who represents my constituency. Then you have dingdongs like JRM one minute talk about how parliament should not have a say on Brexit and then once the ability to do so is won by a lawyer, helps to vote down May's deal with his ERG.

True, the EU does 'discriminate' against people from other countries (though it is not White Europeans, considering that a significant minority of Europe's population is....not white. Mamadou the black Frenchman can move to the UK just as easily as Mesut the Turkish German and just as easily as Antoine or Hermann can. But yes, it is easier for a Frenchman to come than a Nigerian. He is living in cloud cuckoo land though if he thinks that will change with Brexit or the politicians/ public would accept a significantly different immigration policy. Look at how vote leave used the bogey man of Turkey during the campaign. Or I only need to look at the significantly increased rate of racism I have experienced since Brexit, including from patients (with Brexit sometimes being mentioned) to know that the UK isn't suddenly going to become so much more accepting of non white immigrants. (And no, I am not saying everyone or even the majority of people who voted for Brexit are racist).

Again, agreed that the EU's current approach to Africa is reprehensible. Fully agreed. Though he's delusional if he thinks the UK isn't making a pretty penny from that and won't continue to throw its weight around to take advantage of poorer nations.

Also agree that the EU is a corporatist club. Ironically again, the UK is probably one of the most corporate countries in there and this dream of some kind of left wing exit from the EU is a dream. Look at the current party, look at their rhetoric, look at some of the ways people have suggested we could deal with a no deal Brexit and then please explain to me how we're going to become less corporate, more protective of workers rights with Brexit?

The EU is irrelevent to trade is genuinely one of the stupidest things I have ever read in my life. Its good to be global, I want the UK to be global. However, many countries (especially those with advanced economies) will have their closer neighbours as amongst their biggest trading partners. And most of them are in....a trade association with their partners. Apparently we're different though.


Incidentally, Trump is a shark and the USA are sharks. We will get savaged by them if we leave without a deal and attempt to negotiate a meaningful trade deal.

I've always been a remainer, won't hide that. I've always also thought there are some big problems with the EU. I think that many of these problems will get worse with Brexit. I guess we will see though. I hope the UK becomes a global player with beneficial bilateral trade deals, cultural exchange, workers rights and an open, tolerant approach to immigration, then great, count me in. Colour me skeptical though and most of the types who I've met who support Brexit don't exactly fill me with hope either.

I understand not wanting to get into long discussions or bogged down in it, but one thing I really do not think your view of staying in the EU is in the minority on here. But thank you for not resorting to cheap and offensive insults like some have on that side. I respect your opinion and your right to your opinion. I have said for a long time I do not think Brexit will actually happen or we will have sort of special arrangement where we are actually still in it, but opt out of a few areas. Not that it will make any difference because we never got to influence the EU anyway.

 

[Hootnow]

I understand not wanting to get into long discussions or bogged down in it, but one thing I really do not think your view of staying in the EU is in the minority on here. But thank you for not resorting to cheap and offensive insults like some have on that side. I respect your opinion and your right to your opinion. I have said for a long time I do not think Brexit will actually happen or we will have sort of special arrangement where we are actually still in it, but opt out of a few areas. Not that it will make any difference because we never got to influence the EU anyway.

Fair enough mate. Certainly last time I posted on randomisation with any kind of regularity, I was a bit of an outlier with my mostly left wing, liberal views (fully appreciating that it is difficult to really pigeon hole views that easily), perhaps that has changed now.

Frankly, Brexit makes me want to bang my head against a wall but I similarly respect your view and I hope that the vision you have of how the UK would look post Brexit is how it turns out. I don't think it will be some kind of Mad Max wasteland by any means but I do think we'll be a poorer, more insular nation, potentially smaller, potentially having fudged Ireland up the ass and potentially with slightly more deregulation to attempt to balance the negative short-medium term effects.

But I don't see the point of insults as you said and I hope that what you envision happening is what actually happens. Nobody benefits from the UK declining and I include the EU in that.

 

[Gutter Boy]

What do you reply to GB?

GB are you living on a commune in Wales? Growing your veg, washing your socks in the brook? If so jobs, life, the capitalist system has the rest of us in its grasp still and its probably too late for us, we need its riches and goods. Credit to you for stepping outside it.

What do you think growth is a measure of?

Prosperity? Nope. Happiness? Nope. All it measures is how quickly we are burning up our natural resources.

A country 'grows' because it's population grows, so more dinosaurs get burnt.

Japan is actually a first world country that has stablised its population, so its GDP is shrinking while prosperity and quality of life are not decreasing. A steady-state economy

 

[scaramanga]

So either way, you are still making an appeal to authority then?

As I said above, it would certainly be very strange for these investors to be running scared of a potential Labour win, a win they have shown no signs of getting (and as I pointed out above, Corbyn and Mcdonnell went against a Tory party 10 years deep into a harsh austerity programme, with a shambolic handling of Brexit (arguably a shambolic process in and of itself), with two of the worst PMs in recent history and....still managed to lose? So what's changed?

And yet the actual process of Brexit, which is going on currently, which we are now mere days away from, where we don't have a deal and which has had a discernible impact on the value of the pound already, isn't what is on their minds?

I personally don't know many CEOs of companies but that doesn't mean I automatically believe good old Dyson when he talks about how great Brexit is going to be, especially as he shifts his own company's wealth out of the UK and then ignore what other business leaders are saying.

Out of interest, what is this investor's view on Brexit?

I wouldn't imagine you know many footballers or managers either, especially top level ones, yet you were literally passing judgement on the opinions of pundits in a thread just a few days ago?

I don't think I've made my initial point clear (either that or you're misunderstanding how an appeal to authority works).

There's no judgement that I'm attributing to an expert, he's merely passed on what his clients are telling him. That's just transferring facts, there's no application of logic to become a logical fallacy.