Politics, politics, politics

[Baleforce]

Its clear that those that are in power really believe that a Hard Brexit will be very damaging to the country and are doing anything they can to avoid this. May is doing everything she can to avoid this while trying to keep her party (and DUP) happy and they all have totally different views, hence the complete mash up and inability to get it over the line.

I am not saying hard brexit will be damaging (although I believe this) but that those who have power (or potential power Labour) are motivated by this primarily and trying to get the best for them with this in mind. Given that hard brexit is effectively off the table what do you do within those restrictions and then the motivations become quite clear.

I'm not seeing any real effort to avoid it, they are just stalling for time until it happens imo.

Hard Brexit is the table.

 

[the dza]

Yes but it was a prominent type of BREXIT that was being campaigned during the referendum - leaving the single market was a 11th hour change once they knew they had a chance of winning. During the referendum remain campaigners were saying that a Norway model will be worse than remaining, but it was certainly a model that was being pushed.

Norway + fulfills "the will of the people", solves the NI issue and we have "left the EU" - its crap but better than anything else we can achieve.

It is also likely to be the "will of the people" far more than no deal as all the Remain and a substantial minority of leavers would likely prefer this.

The labour leadership wants the EU without state aid / nationalisation rules, this offers that. If they are able to get into power this will suit them perfectly.

The red lines / brexit means hard brexit only came about after the referendum, you have a point that it's largely pointless but you can't then point to the results to legitimised the position.

If you want to have that legitimacy you need another referendum without it this version of leaving the EU is just as democratic as hard and May's.

*not you but people

Agree with all that.

Adding to this, Corbyn's letter to May sets out the potential for compromise to get a deal through Parliament, offering a way out along the lines of soft-Brexit. Roberto Gualtieri is an Italian MEP who is on the European Parliament Brexit Steering Group, was on BBC Radio this morning. He was supportive of Corbyn's letter and the potential for compromise based on going ahead with the withdrawal agreement whilst re-negotiating the political declaration along these lines.

I think they can get there.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Its clear that those that are in power really believe that a Hard Brexit will be very damaging to the country and are doing anything they can to avoid this. May is doing everything she can to avoid this while trying to keep her party (and DUP) happy and they all have totally different views, hence the complete mash up and inability to get it over the line.

I am not saying hard brexit will be damaging (although I believe this) but that those who have power (or potential power Labour) are motivated by this primarily and trying to get the best for them with this in mind. Given that hard brexit is effectively off the table what do you do within those restrictions and then the motivations become quite clear.

The other angle on that, for me, is that its simply easier for them.

Our politics have evolved over the last couple of decades to basically be all about PR while letting the EU run things.

As noted many times, there are things we could have changed that we simply went along with. With the EU doing all the laws and beurocracy our politicians only need the right spin to make their way.

Hard Brexit means they'll actually have to work for a living. Take proper, meaningful, action.

And I dont think any of them have the stomach for it. Rhetoric is easy. Actually following it through? Well they arent used to that are they?

So BINO basically leaves them in their cushy position they were in before. Shouting at each other in the house, not offering policy but only trying to discredit the other side, and generally being more of a marketing professional.

Which isnt Brexit of any description.

Scared they all will get an arse kicking at the ballots.
They have made a mess of it.

And yet it offers them exactly what they need. Either a clear mandate on what flavour of exit the country wants, or - massive win for them - a remain vote and it all goes away.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Agree with all that.

Adding to this, Corbyn's letter to May sets out the potential for compromise to get a deal through Parliament, offering a way out along the lines of soft-Brexit. Roberto Gualtieri is an Italian MEP who is on the European Parliament Brexit Steering Group, was on BBC Radio this morning. He was supportive of Corbyn's letter and the potential for compromise based on going ahead with the withdrawal agreement whilst re-negotiating the political declaration along these lines.

I think they can get there.

None of which makes it the right choice.

It just circles back around to the fact that ALL IN or ALL OUT are the only proper options.

Everything else is just stupid.

 

[glorygloryeze]

I think us 'remainers' are approaching this from the wrong angle. We try to use logic and facts to inform Brexiteers about the folly of Brexit.

But emotions will always hold more sway to most rather than logic and facts. This is demonstrated by the Brexiteers retoric being strong on emotions and weak on facts, yet they are setting the shape of the discourse. Why?

We need to be more base.

We need to start calling the Brexiters traitors

Russian stodges.

We need to start making brick up like the Brexiters do.

In short we need to win the emotional argument... Winning the factual one is not enough.

Taking the high road doesn't work, let's get dirty... Let's have a dust up.

Hi Mr Tusk

Welcome to GG

 

[StephenH]

We need to start calling the Brexiters traitors

Half the problem is they see themselves as ‘loyalists’ defending queen and country.....blah blah

 

[r-u-s-x]

The other angle on that, for me, is that its simply easier for them.

Our politics have evolved over the last couple of decades to basically be all about PR while letting the EU run things.

As noted many times, there are things we could have changed that we simply went along with. With the EU doing all the laws and beurocracy our politicians only need the right spin to make their way.

I don't agree with this, powers that be just blamed any bad policy on the EU, this is a major cause of the BREXIT vote result as politicians on both sides have been blaming the EU for their own policy for so long that people believed it.

Hard Brexit or Norway + and they will still blame the EU for failed policy (hard - if they gave us a better deal we wouldn't have to privitise NHS for example).

 

[Baleforce]

Half the problem is they see them selves as ‘loyalists’ defending queen and country.....blah blah

this country still hasn't grown out of World War 2 rhetoric

 

[DTA]

Hi Mr Tusk

Welcome to GG

Go to hell

 

[DTA]

Half the problem is they see them selves as ‘loyalists’ defending queen and country.....blah blah

Yeah so we start picking them off one by one.

Attacking there 'heros' the 'fifth column bastards'

Turn the tables on them.... Win the nationalists arguements.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Haha..win the 'Nationalist argument' by saying we should submit to the EU...that'd be great

I think you need to go back to the guy who sold you the Russian Algorthms @DTA

 

[DTA]

Haha..win the 'Nationalist argument' by saying we should submit to the EU...that'd be great

I think you need to go back to the guy who sold you the Russian Algorthms @DTA

Win the nationalists arguements showing Brexiters being the Russian federations useful idiots

 

[glorygloryeze]

Win the nationalists arguements showing Brexiters being the Russian federations useful idiots

Haha... keep them coming Tusky

 

[glorygloryeze]

I'd vote for that, no borders, one people, sounds great.

Hitler would have loved it too

 

[the dza]

None of which makes it the right choice.

It just circles back around to the fact that ALL IN or ALL OUT are the only proper options.

Everything else is just stupid.

There's no appetite for a 2nd ref in Parliament, so there is no all-in or all-out option at the moment. The potential option is all-out or soft-Brexit. I choose soft-Brexit, accepting the flaws.

 

[Baleforce]

Hitler would have loved it too

not the kind of "one people" I had in mind to be honest

 

[StephenH]

submit to the EU

My case rests!




It must be like being in England just befor the battle Crecy

 

[glorygloryeze]

My case rests!




It must be like being in England just befor the battle Crecy

Would you prefer if i had said "Acquiesce" or "continue to be part of EU state-building processes" instead?

 

[StephenH]

Would you prefer if i had said "Acquiesce" or "continue to be part of EU state-building processes" instead?

You can say what you want and I will defend your right to do so.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Maybe the better question for those who want to remain should be what is the EU's plan? I mean apart from Ever Closer Union with one President, One Currency, One Tax system, One Army under a United States Of Europe?

To allow nations to cooperate. To trade freely. To move freely. To develop a new saterlile system - that was being made in the UK as we have the programmers and companies who can handle such a project. It will now go to France instead. To pursue free trade with rest of the world for its member nations. To maintain peace (EU born out of world war n all). No doubt pollution and global warming will become a big issue as this looms over the world. And the EU provices a means for a continent to cooperate and make changes they couldn't in isolation (we'd lose competitiveness unless everyone does it at once). To provide an alternative to NATO etc etc

So many postive things, but I note you were not able or willing to outline the positives of Brexit.