So you and
@nayimfromthehalfwayline voted to Remain? I think you know in your heads (if not hearts) that Brexit doesn't make economic sense and poses significant risks to the UK.
I voted to remain because I didn't want any short term turmoil. I also didn't trust Cameron to deliver a decent Brexit, I trust May even less.
That doesn't make Brexit bad in itself, neither does it mean it can't work. It just means that Brexit in the hands of Cameron or May will not be what it can be.
Sentimentally you're still attached to the Brexit ideology, and that drives the rhetoric possibly. As does the Telegraph and Spectator, where the brexit ideologs whip themselves into a ferver denying most logic and appealing to each others traditional patriotic zeal.
I keep an eye on the Torygraph, and just looked up the Spectator. Both traditionally strong pubications with execellent journalism. But not on Brexit. Why is that? On brexit both lose rationality and become dogmatic, swayed in one very obvious direction. No other publications are like this, even the Sun has shunted Brexit away from the front pages. What could be the reason for their bias? It's simple, both the Spectator and Telegraph are owned by the Barclays Brothers. Their editors are told by the owners to be pro Brexit and its become a place for the centre right to back each other up, and quite simply delude each other.
Replace Telegraph with BBC and Spectator with the FT and you have summed up my point perfectly. Sources that are usually balanced and accurate taking an incredibly biased view on Brexit.
Your economic assertions are so full of holes you could drive a truck full of Swiss Cheese through them. Where to start? Food from the EU is cheap and of good quality.
EU food isn't cheap and it's not always good. Have you ever spent any time in Germany? Their food is fudging awful.
EU food is expensive because it lacks competition, has a protectionist racket around it and is over-regulated. The only thing that keeps it even vaguely close to anywhere else in price is massive subsidies (which come from our pockets). You may not see that cost quite as directly but it's there. It's also worse than being in the cost of food because it doesn't scale with need, it scales with earnings.
Where would you get our food from?
Quite literally anywhere.
Africa is not looking so viable
Why not?
where are the goods going to come from? Obviously the EU.
Again, quite literally anywhere. Including some from the EU.
We agree London will remain a fiancial hub, but I think it would decline in prominance with a hard brexit, you don't. One question, why would Credit Swiss leave Zuric and setup its HQ in London? Zuric has been a banking capital of Europe, right in the center of the continent, and has been the place for the rich to stash their cash, why did Swiss banks move to London? Moreover why wouldn't the same banks move again - in time - to Paris? Or French banks for that matter.
Zurich was never the banking capital of Europe. London has always been the centre of finance in the West. New York put up a good show for a while but it's always been London in the end.
Swiss banks and insurers work in London because everyone else does. It pays to be next to the services you rely on - often it's helpful to be near your competitors too as you can all gain from the reduced cost of the resources needed to operate.
You may think that London will decline as a centre for banking, I can tell you that in private, those who hold the cards in financial services don't. I trust them with my investments and my son's future - I think it's safe to rely on them here.
You seem to accept losing manufacturing as part of Brexit now. Rather than subsidising it. "The UK motor vehicle manufacturing industry contributed £15.2 billion to the economy in 2017. The industry employed 162,000 people across Great Britain in 2016. 1.75 million vehicles were produced in the UK in 2017, 80% of which were exported." What will replace these jobs if they move into the EU?
I think you've misunderstood my point. I don't think many of those jobs will move. After all, the UK is a large market and if the EU insist on tariffs then car manufacturers will have to build in the UK to avoid them.
But I don't think any industry should be propped up if it can't compete. Those costs all eventually come from our pockets. Just like mining had to be shut down in the 80s, some industries will not be able to compete. As the world (via the WTO and external treaties) moves towards low to no tariffs, this will happen the world over.
I do believe there would be oppotunity among hard brexit chaos. That's why it appeals to the elite rich. Their money is safe offshore. They have possibly had a punt on the pound's decline, and will hoover up post Brexit using the cheaper currency to buy up the nation. There will be oppotunty for others too, but not much, and where will it come from? What new fresh industries will be created and how? And why aren't we doing it already?
Mainly because we can't sign trade agreements and trade properly with the rest of the world from behind the EU's protectionist barriers. Everyone laughs at Trump when he insists protectionism is good, but somehow not at the EU.
And a devalued pound is already reaping benefits. Our overseas trade has increased significantly. Without the need to apply EU regulation to non-EU products that will improve further - as will margins.
You and Nayim were right to vote to stay in, Brexit is high risk, low reward. It's not even revolution, it's downgrading the UK, making it more peripheral for no meaningful advantage. If there was an advantage to Brexit, people would be able to articulate it. And the logic would stand up to scrunity. The complex truth is it doesn't stand up to scrunity.
Currently it's high(er) risk and high reward IMO. When the inevitable end result of disparate economies sharing a single currency and trying to harmonise fiscal and social policy transpires, then being outside the EU will be very low risk indeed in comparison.