Rorschach
Sonny Walters
The irony is that the EU are offering NI pretty close to what leavers want - leaving the EU but keeping the full benefits of membership.
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Politics, politics, politics
- Thread starter markysimmo
- Start date
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
Yes that's the theory. But the reality is they will not find the money because they simply don't seem intelligent or pragmatic enough. Also they sat on their hands during the referendum and allowed brexit by default. Something that will further deplete public sector resources.
Hence I said "try." I'd rather an honest attempt at fixing things was made than a guaranteed continuation of the decline in all those services in a country governed by Tories. We'll either get one or the other come election time.
Baleforce
Arthur Rowe
Another May blind spot of course is her famous “no deal is better than a bad deal quote”, whilst that almost certainly not going to be true for the UK economy it’s certainly correct from the EU’s point of view, they will not give us something for nothing, and the things they value are the other side of May’s supposed red lines.
The EU already have a system in place for dealing with third countries.
May is a bank robber who walks in, pulls a gun and shouts “give me the money or I’ll shoot myself in the face”.
No wonder the EU are making jokes about cakes and cherries, it’s mild compared to the continual insult our Brexit planning has been to them.
The EU already have a system in place for dealing with third countries.
May is a bank robber who walks in, pulls a gun and shouts “give me the money or I’ll shoot myself in the face”.
No wonder the EU are making jokes about cakes and cherries, it’s mild compared to the continual insult our Brexit planning has been to them.
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Robspur12
Nick Barmby
That's why the future for public services looks bleak.
The first step to improving them is to remove the Tories from office. You might dispute how much money a Labour Government under the current leadership would be able to raise and spend. The IFS disputed Labour's figures, however they did acknowledge that Labour's plans would increase tax revenues which could then be invested in public services.
To stop the rot, The Tories have to go. Inside of the EU, they have overseen this decline, so it's not like EU membership is going to save us if we have a right-wing government. Which is why, despite the fact that I voted to remain and would do so again, I believe that the most important thing is to elect a left-wing government who will try and undo the damage done to public services by the right.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Actually taxing corporations and the rich isn't the hardest thing in the do.
The current government already does that.
After all, a person or a corporation's tax liability is what HMRC can prove it to be in court, no more. HMRC are pretty much at the limit of what can be proven to be liable in court.
The higher the tax rate, the more beneficial it is to employ expensive accountants and prove one is not liable to said taxes.
ShipOfTheseus
Clint Dempsey
Corbyn in the Mirror saying he'd accept another referendum if conference insists. And talking of the jam-maker, rumours abounding that his undeclared foreign trips are about to bite him on the arse with a Commons suspension, hence NEC’s attempts to limit the deputy leader’s power.
Robspur12
Nick Barmby
We need to elect a strong and effective Labour Government, not one weighed down by dogma. The French Socialists under Hollande could not escape the “bash the wealthy” rhetoric, they had little else to offer and lasted 1 term having seen many wealthy French people escape abroad, their own people repeatedly terrorised and the far right almost claim power. The same will happen here under the current Labour leadership were they to win power, the Tories would return in the following election. A decent Labour government should smash the Tories into oblivion for the chaos they have wrought on this Country.
It was not within the EU’s sphere of responsibility to prevent the Tories inflicting austerity on the UK. Rightly so, that would have been over reach into the internal affairs of a member state. However, on matters such as public health they provided at least a brake to the Tory predilection for deregulation and privatisation. That is why the Tory right hate them. The Country will lose this when we brexit with no deal.
It is worrying that Corbyn could not see past his ideology and consider the value of ensuring the UK remain part of a huge, wealthy trading bloc to maintain the prosperity of our country. It is worrying that he failed to defend an institution that protected the rights of its workers and the health and security of its citizens.
But tbh even if he had been pro brexit I would have accepted it, had he made an argument for it and held a position. Instead he put dogma first by refusing to share a platform with Cameron and remained so low key I was confused as to his position. He says it was “remain” which would make me laugh if it didn’t make me cry. He never had the Labour Party on the front foot in either camp. For me it called into question his judgement on such a huge issue.
He failed to provide leadership during the referendum, he failed to provide leadership over anti semitism. While he seems like a genuine guy with some good values, (see his stance on “shoot to kill” or bombing Syria), I don’t see him as leadership material and I worry that he will be a stooge for a far nastier element in his movement. Ideologues are dangerous.
The large majority of Labour voters and members went out and voted Remain. The reason the UK left the EU is because Tory voters voted for Brexit. That's the fault of Cameron and Osborne, not Corbyn or any other Labour politician. Would those voters have come around if Corbyn (!) shared a platform with them? And what happens to the fortunes of the Labour Party when sharing a platform with Tories in a referendum? Ask Jim Murphy, the former leader of Scottish Labour, who saw the party wiped out up there.
As for the Tories returning to power after 1 Labour term, this happened after Atlee; but the legacy of the Atlee government endured for decades and some of it still does, despite the best efforts of the right-wing in this country. The same could happen again.
Labour offer a lot more than "bash the rich." The 2017 manifesto had a lot of good policies imo and would change the country for the better if implemented.
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
This might well be true in London and the South-East, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't hold for the midlands & the north.
The referendum was 1 person, 1 vote. So the distribution doesn't really matter, unlike a General Election. If Cameron and Osborne were to persuade enough of their midlands/northern/south-east/london vote to vote remain, remain would have won. Labour voters and members voted for remain in the majority. Tory voters voted to leave in the majority.
There is an inversion of reality whereby a Tory government calls a referendum, a Tory PM and Chancellor campaign for remain, their voting bloc votes to leave and it's Corbyn's fault. No. Brexit is a Tory made mess, they phucking own it -- lock, stock, and barrel.
From yougov https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/06/27/how-britain-voted/
People who voted in 2015 election for Tory/Lab/Lib Dem voted Remain/Leave in the following splits:
Tory: 39% Remain, 61% Leave
Labour: 65% Remain, 35% Leave
Lib Dem: 68% Remain, 32% Leave
So the Lib Dems, the arch Remain party, didn't get many more of their voters to vote Remain than Labour did. Which to me shows that Labour did a pretty good job of getting their voters to go and vote for Remain. Cameron and Osborne failed miserably, they could not get enough of their voters to go along with them and vote Remain. So, we're leaving the EU.
People who voted in 2015 election for Tory/Lab/Lib Dem voted Remain/Leave in the following splits:
Tory: 39% Remain, 61% Leave
Labour: 65% Remain, 35% Leave
Lib Dem: 68% Remain, 32% Leave
So the Lib Dems, the arch Remain party, didn't get many more of their voters to vote Remain than Labour did. Which to me shows that Labour did a pretty good job of getting their voters to go and vote for Remain. Cameron and Osborne failed miserably, they could not get enough of their voters to go along with them and vote Remain. So, we're leaving the EU.
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
I meant in terms of balance, rather than the legality of what they pay now. Adjusting the burden away from the middle towards the higher earners and private sector.
I'm absolutely not against incentives/rewards for the capable, but pay ratios, rebanded council tax, major second home tax, 28 hour working week and solving the Amazon/Google problem are all things that would improve the situation
Gutter Boy
Tim Sherwood
Corbyn is the original Brexiteer. He's been one since long before it was cool. Before I was born.
His whole approach to the last 3 years has clearly been to try and get Brexit through without tinkling off North London. He's got to survive this last conference with no binds to disrupt the process and then he's home clear
His whole approach to the last 3 years has clearly been to try and get Brexit through without tinkling off North London. He's got to survive this last conference with no binds to disrupt the process and then he's home clear
Parklaner81
Steve Hodge
The distribution will matter very much to Labour, or at least it should. It's what's put them in such an awkward position over brexit.
I'm making no assertions whatsoever as to the rights or wrongs of Corbyn's behaviour on this issue, but the briefest look at the numbers shows that 'blaming' brexit purely on tory voters is a very long way short of the full story.