Politics, politics, politics

[Gutter Boy]

The dude is a fudging right wing nut job. Alt right is a combination of nazis the far right, the almost far right and the mainstream right. Coming together to reverse liberalism... Except we have have let their discourse of liberalism being a bad thing gain traction. What does liberalism mean? To me in its fundamental state, it means live and let live. A mixture of capitalism and socialism. Let people that work hard make money but those less fortunate, let's have a saftey net. Those that want to believe in a GHod that you don't... Fine. As long as everyone has the freedom to do so... Or not believe at all. Those that that prefer men to women... no worries guys have at it... It's none of our business.

That seems all fair to me. So what the fudge is so wrong with liberalism... I'm interested to find out.

I think you need to pull apart social liberalism and neo-liberalism

Brexit is a kick-back against the economics of neo-liberalism/globalisation. But its never been about conservative values. So criticism about immigration is about the engines that drive it (social dumping and exploitative relations with the third world), never the individuals - they are the victims.

As far as I can gauge social conservatism has been dying steadily in this country since the 50s and is nearly gone. May is a bit of a throwback. But secularisation, gay emancipation and the rest have been won here, in a way they haven't in America

 

[Rorschach]

The dude is a fudging right wing nut job. Alt right is a combination of nazis the far right, the almost far right and the mainstream right. Coming together to reverse liberalism... Except we have have let their discourse of liberalism being a bad thing gain traction. What does liberalism mean? To me in its fundamental state, it means live and let live. A mixture of capitalism and socialism. Let people that work hard make money but those less fortunate, let's have a saftey net. Those that want to believe in a GHod that you don't... Fine. As long as everyone has the freedom to do so... Or not believe at all. Those that that prefer men to women... no worries guys have at it... It's none of our business.

That seems all fair to me. So what the fudge is so wrong with liberalism... I'm interested to find out.

Indeed. Bannon is an ideologue who is riding the wave of far-right sentiment. Their unpalatable notions are been given oxygen in some ways by the far left overplaying the identity politics card. Steve Bannon said that he couldn’t get enough of the left’s “race-identity politics” and the "longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em ... I want them to talk about race and identity every day.”

 

[DTA]

I think you need to pull apart social liberalism and neo-liberalism

Brexit is a kick-back against the economics of neo-liberalism/globalisation. But its never been about conservative values. So criticism about immigration is about the engines that drive it (social dumping and exploitative relations with the third world), never the individuals - they are the victims.

As far as I can gauge social conservatism has been dying steadily in this country since the 50s and is nearly gone. May is a bit of a throwback. But secularisation, gay emancipation and the rest have been won here, in a way they haven't in America

Um... just no. What percentage of society knows the difference between the terms neo liberalism and social liberalism?

You and others on here may have good non right wing (ahem racist) for supporting Brexit. But the Brexit campaign used fear of foreigners as a central message.

It wasn't about social dumping and exploitation of the third world.... Come on man be sensible.


The right have smartened up. They hide their racism a little better now. And what you have written sounds quite a bit like how they like to do it.

 

[DTA]

Indeed. Bannon is an ideologue who is riding the wave of far-right sentiment. Their unpalatable notions are been given oxygen in some ways by the far left overplaying the identity politics card. Steve Bannon said that he couldn’t get enough of the left’s “race-identity politics” and the "longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em ... I want them to talk about race and identity every day.”

Oh I agree with this as well.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

Indeed. Bannon is an ideologue who is riding the wave of far-right sentiment. Their unpalatable notions are been given oxygen in some ways by the far left overplaying the identity politics card. Steve Bannon said that he couldn’t get enough of the left’s “race-identity politics” and the "longer they talk about identity politics, I got ’em ... I want them to talk about race and identity every day.”

I’m not sure that the “far left is overplaying the identity politics card”. There’s a huge constituency for which identity politics is more important than class politics, and they are currently, in most polities, broadly allied with the socialist left.

That isn’t always helpful to the left. As you - and Bannon - say, it muddies their fight and alienates some of the traditional base. Worse, gender identity issues (if not race ones) can easily be coopted by liberals and centrists, so the alliance is only temporary. And identity politics is confusing, frothy, angry, febrile and happens largely on Twitter, baffling the hell out of the lefty old guard. Identity politics isn’t a card the left plays, it’s something to which it has had to adapt, with difficulty.

 

[Rorschach]

I’m not sure that the “far left is overplaying the identity politics card”. There’s a huge constituency for which identity politics is more important than class politics, and they are currently, in most polities, broadly allied with the socialist left.

That isn’t always helpful to the left. As you - and Bannon - say, it muddies their fight and alienates some of the traditional base. Worse, gender identity issues (if not race ones) can easily be coopted by liberals and centrists, so the alliance is only temporary. And identity politics is confusing, frothy, angry, febrile and happens largely on Twitter, baffling the hell out of the lefty old guard. Identity politics isn’t a card the left plays, it’s something to which it has had to adapt, with difficulty.

I've come to the opinion it is the wrong discussion to be having. An objective viewing of what is going on he last few years has made me realise the rules of the game need to change, the forum. And that is not to deny that there a multitude of grievances across the board, but the discussion needs to be steered away from the labels and silos. That way lies madness.

Edit: I might add the real discussion is wealth IMO.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

I've come to the opinion it is the wrong discussion to be having. An objective viewing of what is going the last few years has made me realise the rules of the game need to change, the forum. And that is not to deny that there a multitude of grievances across the board, but the discussion needs to be steered away from the labels and silos. That way lies madness.

Edit: I might add the real discussion is wealth IMO.

I think that’s a sensible ideological position, but it misses the practical need for coalitions and alliances to get anything done.

 

[SpurMeUp]

If you could order 2 hits (an assassination) from any political figures, which two would you choose and why? Obviously ordered with a pinch of salt, not trying to play being Putin.

 

[Rorschach]

I think that’s a sensible ideological position, but it misses the practical need for coalitions and alliances to get anything done.

I agree with that and well that's politics as normal. But we've stepped way outside normal now in my opinion. So far in fact that reasoned political discourse is dying, certainly in the US anyway. And while I side with liberal viewpoints on almost everything really I see the only way to douse the fire is to deny it oxygen.
The focus of our attention should be on the wealth disparity. That is real shame of our generation.

 

[Parklaner81]

The places in the UK with the most amount of immigrants all voted to stay in the EU I believe.

A brief scan of the vote breakdown on the electoral commision website suggests this to be something of an over-generalisation.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

If you could order 2 hits (an assassination) from any political figures, which two would you choose and why? Obviously ordered with a pinch of salt, not trying to play being Putin.

Jeremy Corbyn. While Labour leadership election rules remain as they are, pre-conference, the influence this could have on the UK electoral map, and on Brexit, would be staggering. Starmer. Cooper. Anyone who the soft left and New Lab could both live with. So if I had two shots, maybe both of them would be on Corbyn, just to be sure.

Otherwise, I think Putin. Strongmen aren’t great at succession planning, and the vacuum this would leave would be helpful. Perhaps some of the cyber-mischief infrastructure would be diverted to internal battles.

Trump would be a waste: the internal checks and balances seem to be keeping him in control. No-one in the UK right is really worth a bullet.

 

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1025680819464101888

 

[SpurMeUp]

Jeremy Corbyn. While Labour leadership election rules remain as they are, pre-conference, the influence this could have on the UK electoral map, and on Brexit, would be staggering. Starmer. Cooper. Anyone who the soft left and New Lab could both live with. So if I had two shots, maybe both of them would be on Corbyn, just to be sure.

Otherwise, I think Putin. Strongmen aren’t great at succession planning, and the vacuum this would leave would be helpful. Perhaps some of the cyber-mischief infrastructure would be diverted to internal battles.

Trump would be a waste: the internal checks and balances seem to be keeping him in control. No-one in the UK right is really worth a bullet.

While the government is in melt down, Labour are not capitalising. The way he let the anti-semitism stuff run on and addressed it late, just shows he's not smart enough. Any savvy leader would have nipped that in the bud. Made a quick and strong stand early. Now he's made a weak stand late. So although I like a lot of what he proposes, I would agree, Labour needs an electable leader.

 

[ShipOfTheseus]

While the government is in melt down, Labour are not capitalising. The way he let the anti-semitism stuff run on and addressed it late, just shows he's not smart enough. Any savvy leader would have nipped that in the bud. Made a quick and strong stand early. Now he's made a weak stand late. So although I like a lot of what he proposes, I would agree, Labour needs an electable leader.

On antisemitism, I think he's part of the problem rather than an ineffective solution. It's not a factor here, though.

Corbyn comes across as affable and pleasant. He'd be a delightful next-door neighbour. But assassination should always be a matter of cold, utilitarian calculus, and the benefits need to be enormous to outweigh such a grievous wrong. The personal qualities of the target shouldn't really be a factor. I genuinely think it's worthwhile in this case, simply because of Brexit and the threat of the populist right.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

On Gutterboy's politics......he talks to the fairies from the bottom of the garden for his ideology. He stated support for the fascists in the recent Italian poll, so that tells you everything you need to know about him. Naive just doesn't cut it as a descriptor. As for Corbyn, as a socialist I'm rapt in him. I don't want a pale shadow of the Tories, I want a real alternative. As far as the anti antisemitism goes, what is he supposed to do? I heard yesterday that the Tory press chastised him for taking the stage with a holocaust survivor who had the audacity to criticize the Israeli government over it's policy toward Palestine. According to them it was an Ant Semitic comment and that Corbyn was an anti Semite by association...a holocaust survivor for GHod's sake! Any time Labour start to get any traction, the fascist press haul this crap out. I don't blame Corbyn for failing to deal with that, who could? However in a way, it's also gratifying, as it shows just how much these arseholes feel threatened by him and Labour.

 

[milo]

Politics in Peril

Britain needs a serious investigation into Russian meddling in political campaigns

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/politics-in-peril-5fh5mqsdz

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

While the government is in melt down, Labour are not capitalising. The way he let the anti-semitism stuff run on and addressed it late, just shows he's not smart enough. Any savvy leader would have nipped that in the bud. Made a quick and strong stand early. Now he's made a weak stand late. So although I like a lot of what he proposes, I would agree, Labour needs an electable leader.

I like him but am properly concerned by the anti semitism within the party to the extent I might not vote for him at the next election. If I don't vote for him I won't for anyone he is the best of what's there. Seems pretty clear to me the are some very racist members in the Labour party now.

Shame cos I like Corbyn he is another who hates the EU. Read some interesting comments by paxman who hates the EU but admitted to being a reluctant remainer. Actually gave a balanced account of the current situation which I did not expect of him.

 

[Robspur12]

While the government is in melt down, Labour are not capitalising. The way he let the anti-semitism stuff run on and addressed it late, just shows he's not smart enough. Any savvy leader would have nipped that in the bud. Made a quick and strong stand early. Now he's made a weak stand late. So although I like a lot of what he proposes, I would agree, Labour needs an electable leader.

Right on the money mate. I have been saying this for a long time. Unfortunately most of the softer left MPs are weak and they are the reason Corbyn is there in the first place. There is not a natural leader of the Labour Party waiting in the wings.

With Anti semitism, the anti Corbyn faction have found an issue to really hurt the man they loathe and will not let it go. Corbyn should have faced them down. I am not a fan of Corbyn but for me it seems ridiculous that he is being cast as an anti semite. That he hasn't dealt with this effectively says a lot about his leadership qualities.

Love or loathe Trump no one can deny that he has an amazing knack of brushing off scandal after scandal. Corbyn needs a bit of that.

 

[Gutter Boy]

On Gutterboy's politics......he talks to the fairies from the bottom of the garden for his ideology. He stated support for the fascists in the recent Italian poll, so that tells you everything you need to know about him. Naive just doesn't cut it as a descriptor. As for Corbyn, as a socialist I'm rapt in him. I don't want a pale shadow of the Tories, I want a real alternative. As far as the anti antisemitism goes, what is he supposed to do? I heard yesterday that the Tory press chastised him for taking the stage with a holocaust survivor who had the audacity to criticize the Israeli government over it's policy toward Palestine. According to them it was an Ant Semitic comment and that Corbyn was an anti Semite by association...a holocaust survivor for GHod's sake! Any time Labour start to get any traction, the fascist press haul this crap out. I don't blame Corbyn for failing to deal with that, who could? However in a way, it's also gratifying, as it shows just how much these arseholes feel threatened by him and Labour.

Five Star are greens. It's their minor coalition partners who are the facists

 

[Gutter Boy]

If you could order 2 hits (an assassination) from any political figures, which two would you choose and why? Obviously ordered with a pinch of salt, not trying to play being Putin.

Gerry Adams and Ayatollah Khamenei

I'm an Irish nationalist, but I've always said it would stick in my throat if those with blood on their hands like McGuinness and Adams were still around to see reunification happen (1 down, 1 to go)

And Iran is a brilliant country with great people, and a decent president in Rouhani, but the ayatollah is an evil brick who has the whole country under his heal

Trump is too incompetent to worry about - there are far worse Republicans. And Putin's power will quickly collapse as green energy replaces fossil fuels