Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

So, exciting times in Italy - Europe has just got its first ever libertarian-left government; despite a sinister last minute attempted coup by the EU.

Five Star's programme for government includes guaranteed minimum income, a first step towards universal basic income, and largely ditching all the EU's fiscal rules.

After Brexit, this really feels like the second domino in breaking the neo-liberal globalisation consensus

I wish people had thought of something like that sooner. Some sort of credit that was universal.

Just needs a snappy name now.....

 

[Gutter Boy]

In bed with avowed racists, what’s exciting about that?

That's just PR for you. Under FPTP Five Star with their share of the vote probably would have been able to form a majority government

Universal basic income isn't compatible with economic migration, so hopefully that commonality (and their shared Euroscepticism) will pacify the Northern League enough whilst Five Star put through some radical progressive reforms

 

[Gutter Boy]

Oh yeah exciting times, the group that Gutter Boy is such a fanboy of... the Five Star Movement have just formed a coalition with the neo fascist Northern League. This is his great white political hope for the our future...no thanks.

It is the great hope, because it's the only way that deals with automation, environmental challenges, inequality and authoritarianism, and leaves humanity in a better state than it is now. It's how the world finds its balance again and resets its priorities

 

[Gutter Boy]

I wish people had thought of something like that sooner. Some sort of credit that was universal.

Just needs a snappy name now.....

The difference is that it's not supposed to be a temporary safety net. It's a recognition that work has become an opiate/tool of social control, and that actually we can all start doing a bit less of it.

 

[DTA]

The difference is that it's not supposed to be a temporary safety net. It's a recognition that work has become an opiate/tool of social control, and that actually we can all start doing a bit less of it.

How much meaning does life without work have? Serious question that.

Not necessarily your work... But 'work'

 

[Gutter Boy]

How much meaning does life without work have? Serious question that.

Not necessarily your work... But 'work'

As hunter-gatherers (95% of human existence), people used to work about 17 hours a week. That is seen as optimum from an evolutionary point of view. The expectation of a 35/37 hour working week is a modern construct. So it's less work, rather than no work. And sharing round the useful jobs, rather than inventing pointless ones to keep people controlled.

It will be more like everyone is semi-retired. Maybe broadly splitting time in thirds between learning, earning and leisure. There will definitely be more time for arts, sports, lifelong education and socialising. It will be based on individual choice though (and work will still reward), rather than being wage slaves.

Here's an article which covers it in a Five Star context, especially this paragraph: http://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/22/five-star-movement/

The party supports free internet, pacifism, same-sex marriage, large-scale energy projects and teleworking. Economically it is anti-austerity. It also has anti-tax views. It also supports ‘degrowth’, an ecologist, and anti-capitalist economic policy that views overconsumption as at the heart of environmental problems and social inequality. Degrowth instead suggests well-being is better maximised through sharing work, consuming less, and devoting more time to family, culture and community. The party supports a 20 hour working week, monthly stipends for the unemployment and debt renegotiation.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

That's just PR for you. Under FPTP Five Star with their share of the vote probably would have been able to form a majority government

Universal basic income isn't compatible with economic migration, so hopefully that commonality (and their shared Euroscepticism) will pacify the Northern League enough whilst Five Star put through some radical progressive reforms

Err do you know anything at all about Italian politics? Five Star promote a UBI policy, whilst their fascist friends advocate a flat tax policy, yeah that's going to end well. What could possibly go wrong there? How will a flat tax rate, support UBI? What a joke. Liked how you left the fascist bit out. No wonder you didn't broadcast it, still better than Labour isn't it?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

It is the great hope, because it's the only way that deals with automation, environmental challenges, inequality and authoritarianism, and leaves humanity in a better state than it is now. It's how the world finds its balance again and resets its priorities

Clearly you bunked off History classes. The last time I checked, fascists were authoritarians.

 

[milo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1002524041964552192

 

[scaramanga]

As hunter-gatherers (95% of human existence), people used to work about 17 hours a week. That is seen as optimum from an evolutionary point of view. The expectation of a 35/37 hour working week is a modern construct. So it's less work, rather than no work. And sharing round the useful jobs, rather than inventing pointless ones to keep people controlled.

It will be more like everyone is semi-retired. Maybe broadly splitting time in thirds between learning, earning and leisure. There will definitely be more time for arts, sports, lifelong education and socialising. It will be based on individual choice though (and work will still reward), rather than being wage slaves.

Here's an article which covers it in a Five Star context, especially this paragraph: http://www.demsoc.org/2014/04/22/five-star-movement/

The party supports free internet, pacifism, same-sex marriage, large-scale energy projects and teleworking. Economically it is anti-austerity. It also has anti-tax views. It also supports ‘degrowth’, an ecologist, and anti-capitalist economic policy that views overconsumption as at the heart of environmental problems and social inequality. Degrowth instead suggests well-being is better maximised through sharing work, consuming less, and devoting more time to family, culture and community. The party supports a 20 hour working week, monthly stipends for the unemployment and debt renegotiation.

Is there any scientific basis to any of that?

The argument that it's something humans have done throughout history doesn't sound a particularly strong one to me. Apart from the fact that it falls into the naturalistic fallacy, we also had a lot of really bad stuff happen to us throughout history - both by our own hands and that of the natural world.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Err do you know anything at all about Italian politics? Five Star promote a UBI policy, whilst their fascist friends advocate a flat tax policy, yeah that's going to end well. What could possibly go wrong there? How will a flat tax rate, support UBI? What a joke. Liked how you left the fascist bit out. No wonder you didn't broadcast it, still better than Labour isn't it?

Five Star are anti-tax too. UBI actually negates the need for a large state, because things like social care and child care are taken back into the family. To some extent it is free housing and food for all, now go do what you want. Minimal state, but with a much fairer distribution of resources.

The coalition with the Northern League is unfortunate, but it's also the only way, considering it’s a proportional representation system. When you are trying to rebel against such established interests as the Washington Consensus and all its corporate, state and superstate agents, you have to do slightly unholy things like that. Like as a Green I tolerated a temporary alliance with the Tories, Corbynists and UKIP during the EU referendum campaign, none of whom I've got any time for. I feel dirty about it, but we won.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Five Star are anti-tax too. UBI actually negates the need for a large state, because things like social care and child care are taken back into the family. To some extent it is free housing and food for all, now go do what you want. Minimal state, but with a much fairer distribution of resources.

The coalition with the Northern League is unfortunate, but it's also the only way, considering it’s a proportional representation system. When you are trying to rebel against such established interests as the Washington Consensus and all its corporate, state and superstate agents, you have to do slightly unholy things like that. Like as a Green I tolerated a temporary alliance with the Tories, Corbynists and UKIP during the EU referendum campaign, none of whom I've got any time for. I feel dirty about it, but we won.

So the ends justify the means do they? How 'humane' of you. Seriously, if Labour went into coalition with fascists, I'd be protesting in the street, but for you and your ideology it's 'unfortunate'. Seriously? I'd cut my own throat before going into bed with those fascist scum. BTW, cut out the equivalency thing re Brexit, Labour were never and will never enter government with UKIP, like Five Star are with the fascists. Stop spouting rubbish.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Clearly you bunked off History classes. The last time I checked, fascists were authoritarians.

Five Star are left-libertarian, while Northern League are right-libertarian. Both are anti-statist and hence anti-authoritarian. And NL are by some distance the junior partner in the government

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Five Star are left-libertarian, while Northern League are right-libertarian. Both are anti-statist and hence anti-authoritarian. And NL are by some distance the junior partner in the government

Ha, ha, ha, yeah fascists who are not authoritarian and I have a bridge I want to sell you and Hitler has no more territorial demands, you are so naïve, how old are you...14?

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Greens....they really are the pixies at the bottom of the garden aren't they?

 

[Gutter Boy]

Is there any scientific basis to any of that?

The argument that it's something humans have done throughout history doesn't sound a particularly strong one to me. Apart from the fact that it falls into the naturalistic fallacy, we also had a lot of really bad stuff happen to us throughout history - both by our own hands and that of the natural world.

I read it in something by Robin Dunbar (https://www.psy.ox.ac.uk/team/robin-dunbar). A lot of his stuff is about basically we've not really adjusted to an agrarian system, and our brains and bodies are still hardwired for the hunter-gatherer way, and that explains most human behaviour (stone age brains in a space age world).

In terms of work, for 100,000s years humans hunted in intense bursts (c.17 hours a week), then dossed around chatting for the rest of the time. Even in the artificial restrictions of our modern working week, no one actually does 8 hours work a day. They spend 6 hours dossing on GG, punctuated by a few intense bursts of what they are supposed to be doing.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Ha, ha, ha, yeah fascists who are not authoritarian and I have a bridge I want to sell you and Hitler has no more territorial demands, you are so naïve, how old are you...14?

I wouldn't classify NL as fascist. They believe in inequality and are anti-immigration, but they are anti-state, so that's libertarian not fascist. I.e, they are David Davis/Douglas Carswell/Frank Turner territory.

I do have a 1st class politics degree, and my dissertation was on political philosophy, so I'm quite particular with these type of classifications.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I wouldn't classify NL as fascist. They believe in inequality and are anti-immigration, but they are anti-state, so that's libertarian not fascist. I.e, they are David Davis/Douglas Carswell/Frank Turner territory.

I do have a 1st class politics degree, and my dissertation was on political philosophy, so I'm quite particular with these type of classifications.

They are on the extreme right....they are fascists. I'm sick to death of deniers and apologists, there are never any excuses for getting into bed with scum like them. Yeah anti migrant... the fascist dog whistle comment, we all know what that really means. I'll bet they don't have a problem with white migrants. Come on get your arse off that toadstool.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So the ends justify the means do they? How 'humane' of you. Seriously, if Labour went into coalition with fascists, I'd be protesting in the street, but for you and your ideology it's 'unfortunate'. Seriously? I'd cut my own throat before going into bed with those fascist scum. BTW, cut out the equivalency thing re Brexit, Labour were never and will never enter government with UKIP, like Five Star are with the fascists. Stop spouting rubbish.

Corbyn and Farage did a comparable dance during the referendum. Saying the same thing, but with different motives and tone. Corbyn wanted to protect the British worker from their wages and conditions being undercut by cheap (foreign) labour, UKIP wanted to protect the British worker from their wages and conditions being undercut by cheap foreign labour - the only difference is the brackets. They even share a big chunk of the same voters.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Corbyn and Farage did a comparable dance during the referendum. Saying the same thing, but with different motives and tone. Corbyn wanted to protect the British worker from their wages and conditions being undercut by cheap (foreign) labour, UKIP wanted to protect the British worker from their wages and conditions being undercut by cheap foreign labour - the only difference is the brackets. They even share a big chunk of the same voters.

Labour was split on Brexit, so stop trying to make an equivalency argument. You are advocating a party you support going into government with extremist right wing cnuts! Good luck with that mate. Sounds like you studied Stalinism 101 at uni.