Politics, politics, politics

[scaramanga]

Milliband lost for lots of reasons, the main one being that he did not come across as a good leader. I don't think that raising taxes to pay for specific things such as the NHS, if the argument was framed properly is politicsl suicide.

There's been plenty of surveys that show otherwise.

Usually they take a sample group and ask them "Do you think the NHS should be better funded?" Most people say yes. Then they ask the same people the same question with the effect on their taxes detailed out and they all say no.

Yougov do it all the time.

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[Robspur12]

There's been plenty of surveys that show otherwise.

Usually they take a sample group and ask them "Do you think the NHS should be better funded?" Most people say yes. Then they ask the same people the same question with the effect on their taxes detailed out and they all say no.

Yougov do it all the time.

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Tell them the alternative is to scrap the NHS cause it is financially unsustainable and replace it with a compulsory insurance system.

 

[Gutter Boy]

people won't because it's expensive and most people think bad things won't happen to them

i'm a cynical miserable bastard who knows that only bad things happen to me though so i'm currently looking at private insurance, it's expensive, even at a subsidised rate through my company for full family cover, it's not an insignificant cost, even though we are both fortunate enough to be on a good salary

You only have one life

Pay £30 a month more (a suggested top up to existing NI contributions; I know private cover in isolation is nearer £90 a month). Or die 30 years before your time because you aren't having essential screenings.

Health care should also be about enabling healthy ageing - maintaining an active life into your 80s and 90s. Not just trying to bandage up people when they get sick.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Insurance and health is a nightmare combination. The number of exclusions from policies, their frequent unwillingness to treat chronic conditions such as Cancer, the increasing premiums with every claim, would the elderly even get cover? Many just take for granted the care which the NHS provides. It may not be perfect but it is a lot better when you look across a country's population than an insurance based system. We need to fund it properly instead of wasting money re-organizing it with every change of government.

There's a halfway house. I don't mean privatisation like the US. I mean a social health insurance system, like Germany, Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Korea etc. - the countries where they do healthcare well.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

Without doubt mate there are flaws in the National Health Service. But don't let the Tory, right wing rhetoric mess with your head, you are too intelligent for that. In the main it work's well. Life expectancy in the UK is higher than ever thanks in no small part to the healthcare system - vaccinations for all children, screening for adults, exercise referral programmes, subsidised prescriptions the list goes on.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/life-expectancy-at-older-ages-is-the-highest-its-ever-been

The Tories have never liked it because on the bottom line it appears only to be a huge net cost to the economy, they want the services provided by the state reduced and many of their MPs probably have private insurance plans so don't need it - unless they suffer a life threatening emergency of course. Btw the private healthcare insurance cherry picks the "easy wins" but leaves the NHS to pick up the not so lucrative or unglamorous, chronic and costly conditions.

Many people especially those whose families were/are not affluent are alive today thanks to the National Health Service. Sadly once many people start doing well they turn their backs on the public services that helped them up the ladder because they don't want to pay for them.





I don't take the NHS for granted because my family originate from a country overseas where there is no state healthcare system. The only public hospitals are run by charities. We complain about Mental Health services in this country, but where my parents came from until recently, mentally ill patients were instutionalised in the most archaic and frankly insanitary conditions. That is not to say that there is nothing to complain about in terms of mental health care in this country.

We are told the NHS is a bottomless pit of money and no money will ever be enough. We are told the NHS budget has not been cut. But here's the thing. When Blair took office in 1997, spending on the NHS as a proportion of GDP lagged far behind the US, France and Germany, after 18 years of Tory Government. The much maligned New Labour government then increased spending to bring it up to the level of our European neighbours. Now after austerity guess what? We are yet again lagging in terms of proportion spent as a percentage of GDP. Behind the states, France, Germany, Japan, Sweden and Portugal.

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/blog/2...nding-compare-health-spending-internationally

Now I am not a corbynista and don't think his economics stand up but at least he cares if he is somewhat misguided. The Tories however, are totally disingenuous when it comes to the NHS.

The economic extremists in the Tory Party would love nothing more, than to give Britain an American style 'free market' based user pays health system, all compliments of their neo-liberal economic quackery.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

I don't disagree. The Tories don't want to destroy the NHS, they couldn't any way. But they are not interested in increasing spending on it because without increasing borrowing they would have to raise taxes, something which is politically unpalatable to them. That said I think many Tories are ideologically conflicted about a Service that is almost totally reliant on the state.

Of course they wont destroy it. They will simply under fund it, until it's effectiveness is so compromised that public support falters. Then watch it get sold off and broken up.

 

[Gilzeantoscore]

There's a halfway house. I don't mean privatisation like the US. I mean a social health insurance system, like Germany, Canada, Switzerland, Japan, Korea etc. - the countries where they do healthcare well.

Australia has the best healthcare in the world, after Britain.

 

[Gutter Boy]

So we are getting a BETA (a British CETA) then - very good to hear

 

[r-u-s-x]

So we are getting a BETA (a British CETA) then - very good to hear

So we want a BETA - not getting. What will we give up for a Financial passport?

 

[Baleforce]

this is still very much a christmas list, and we've definitely been naughty little children

 

[Gutter Boy]

So we want a BETA - not getting. What will we give up for a Financial passport?

Erm - throw the parasites under the bus and focus on industries that benefit society. It's less than 10% of our economy and the tail shouldn't wag the dog.

 

[Gutter Boy]

this is still very much a christmas list, and we've definitely been naughty little children

Not really. The impossible thing was having single market access with restrictions on immigration. That was the cake and eating it

Now all were are saying is we want a deal like the Canadian one that just happened. And that we'll be getting on with re-engaging the world, so it won't even be that important to us.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Erm - throw the parasites under the bus and focus on industries that benefit society. It's less than 10% of our economy and the tail shouldn't wag the dog.

Are we talking about what we want to happen or what we think will happen as I don't think those in power will have the same view on the City as Gutter Boy.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Not really. The impossible thing was having single market access with restrictions on immigration. That was the cake and eating it

Now all were are saying is we want a deal like the Canadian one that just happened. And that we'll be getting on with re-engaging the world, so it won't even be that important to us.

"that just happened"

Key thing to consider is it didn't 'just happen' it took a decade to implement. Will the EU do us any favours and let us sign off a trade deal quickly,in your opinion?


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[the dza]

So, when the dust has settled, will we be getting the deal with Europe that the remain campaign said we'd end up with? I seem to remember @milo posting many tweets and links highlighting that we could only have full access to the single market if we accepted the four freedoms, including freedom of movement.

For all the bluster from the Tories about keeping cards close to the chest re. negotiations, it seems what May has outlined in her speech is basically what the Europeans said it would be from the start i.e. we don't get to pick and choose, out means out.

It still feels like nobody really knows what's going to happen -- which is one of the two reasons I voted to stay in.

 

[AuroRaman]

Does anyone else get a bit of a lazy lob-on when reading about soft and hard Brexits?


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[milo]

So, when the dust has settled, will we be getting the deal with Europe that the remain campaign said we'd end up with? I seem to remember @milo posting many tweets and links highlighting that we could only have full access to the single market if we accepted the four freedoms, including freedom of movement.

For all the bluster from the Tories about keeping cards close to the chest re. negotiations, it seems what May has outlined in her speech is basically what the Europeans said it would be from the start i.e. we don't get to pick and choose, out means out.

It still feels like nobody really knows what's going to happen -- which is one of the two reasons I voted to stay in.

May isn't talking about full access. She is talking about best access, which is meaningless. All countries have access to the single market, the important question is on what terms. Even if she achieves her aim of tariff free access, it is likely that we will face non-tarrif barriers that will make it harder for our companies to sell to Europe.

I think that the timetable that she has set herself if unrealistic. I suspect that they know that too. How they get out of that will be interesting to see. She's given herself three areas for wriggle room today; leaving open the option of still paying into the EU, leaving open the option of customs union and leaving open the option of an interim deal (sorry implementation period).

 

[the dza]

May isn't talking about full access. She is talking about best access, which is meaningless. All countries have access to the single market, the important question is on what terms. Even if she achieves her aim of tariff free access, it is likely that we will face non-tarrif barriers that will make it harder for our companies to sell to Europe.

I think that the timetable that she has set herself if unrealistic. I suspect that they know that too. How they get out of that will be interesting to see. She's given herself three areas for wriggle room today; leaving open the option of still paying into the EU, leaving open the option of customs union and leaving open the option of an interim deal (sorry implementation period).

Do you feel any the wiser for hearing her speech today though? I feel like the only thing she was clear on was basically telling the EU "that thing you said you won't give us (being in the single market without freedom of movement)? We don't want it."

This sh1t is gonna run and run. Ugh.

 

[milo]

Do you feel any the wiser for hearing her speech today though? I feel like the only thing she was clear on was basically telling the EU "that thing you said you won't give us (being in the single market without freedom of movement)? We don't want it."

This sh1t is gonna run and run. Ugh.

I think that most of what she said today had been clear for sometime. I think the speech was long overdue but mostly it was light on detail.

I think that we are very unlikely to get what we are asking for and have set an unrealistic timetable to achieve it.

I also do not think that there is enough time to set up the new bodies and transfer powers to UK organisations that will be needed to take over the roles currently carried out in Brussels.

I think that she is a hostage to the right of her party and they are going to force us down a route that will do real damage to the country and there is no mandate for. If only we had an opposition worthy of the name.

 

[the dza]

Appreciate your thoughts @milo . We do differ in our political opinions but yours is definitely an informed one.