Politics, politics, politics

[SpurMeUp]

I really doubt Brexit will happen, between the lawyers and the Labour party I just sadly do not see it. Great shame that but it is what it is.

Almost like you think that it not happening would be best?

The irony that if we voted today, knowing what we know now, we wouldn't vote for exit, but for remain.

More immigrants come into the U.K. from outside the EU! why is this hidden? Why don't we address that? And retain some form of free movement and market access?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Gutter Boy]

The irony that if we voted today, knowing what we know now, we wouldn't vote for exit, but for remain.

I disagree. I think a lot of spiritual leavers lost their nerve in the last few days with the Jo Cox thing. I think a re-run would see a much stronger leave vote, especially after the doomsday prophecies proved so ridiculous.

 

[r-u-s-x]

More immigrants come into the U.K. from outside the EU! why is this hidden? Why don't we address that? And retain some form of free movement and market access?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

This information was available prior the vote, the stats are all reported.

 

[Gutter Boy]

More immigrants come into the U.K. from outside the EU! why is this hidden? Why don't we address that? And retain some form of free movement and market access?

That's mainly Chinese and Indian students. It's just a dumb home office thing that puts them in migration figures.

The thing about non-EU migration is that it's a work permit system, so it's controllable and can be targeted to specific priority areas (count the Afrikaans next time you are in a hospital)

 

[SpurMeUp]

At gutter and Ruxx. People's votes are not logical, based on fact, especially the last one as it was new territory and incredibly complex.

Facts being available is second to emotive imagery used in the referendum. posters of Turkish immigrants (un-factual as Turks don't have free movement) the 350m per week for the NHS.

With greater knowledge of the facts, and with what can only be called lies like the above, debunked, many many many would abstain instead of vote leave. Many others who understand the implications on their finances would also vote to remain. Car factory workers for example.

What I don't get is why politicians are not being more honest [emoji23] Who I am I kidding! But they seem to be scarred of showing any leadership in the face of 'popularism'. To me popularism is a reaction against same old politicians saying the right thing and showing a lack of leadership.

Why not address immigration - from outside the EU? It would be popular. And ensure the uks economy is best served? Show some leadership to deliver the best for the uk, not some load of gonads that is a half arsed attempt to placate an emotional vote based on immigration.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[scaramanga]

At gutter and Ruxx. People's votes are not logical, based on fact, especially the last one as it was new territory and incredibly complex.

Facts being available is second to emotive imagery used in the referendum. posters of Turkish immigrants (un-factual as Turks don't have free movement) the 350m per week for the NHS.

With greater knowledge of the facts, and with what can only be called lies like the above, debunked, many many many would abstain instead of vote leave. Many others who understand the implications on their finances would also vote to remain. Car factory workers for example.

What I don't get is why politicians are not being more honest [emoji23] Who I am I kidding! But they seem to be scarred of showing any leadership in the face of 'popularism'. To me popularism is a reaction against same old politicians saying the right thing and showing a lack of leadership.

Why not address immigration - from outside the EU? It would be popular. And ensure the uks economy is best served? Show some leadership to deliver the best for the uk, not some load of cobblers that is a half arsed attempt to placate an emotional vote based on immigration.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

It's that attitude that would likely create a stronger leave vote than before.

You're essentially saying that people only voted leave because they didn't know better - if they knew as much as you they'd have voted the same way as you did. You still fundamentally do not understand why people voted leave.

 

[Gutter Boy]

At gutter and Ruxx. People's votes are not logical, based on fact, especially the last one as it was new territory and incredibly complex.

Facts being available is second to emotive imagery used in the referendum. posters of Turkish immigrants (un-factual as Turks don't have free movement) the 350m per week for the NHS.

With greater knowledge of the facts, and with what can only be called lies like the above, debunked, many many many would abstain instead of vote leave. Many others who understand the implications on their finances would also vote to remain. Car factory workers for example.

What I don't get is why politicians are not being more honest [emoji23] Who I am I kidding! But they seem to be scarred of showing any leadership in the face of 'popularism'. To me popularism is a reaction against same old politicians saying the right thing and showing a lack of leadership.

Why not address immigration - from outside the EU? It would be popular. And ensure the uks economy is best served? Show some leadership to deliver the best for the uk, not some load of cobblers that is a half arsed attempt to placate an emotional vote based on immigration.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Immigration from outside the EU is nearly all students (who bring about £5bn into the economy each year, and create business/cultural links when they go home) and highly-skilled workers. Not the unskilled immigration that makes up a big proportion from the EU.

Middle/Shire England and the working class are ideologically wedded to Brexit. The metropolitan liberals inside their London bubble just forgot they existed, and importantly how many of them there are. Anyone who found the result a surprise didn't visit places like North Yorkshire, Lincolnshire or Leicestershire during the campaign.

 

[r-u-s-x]

Immigration from outside the EU is nearly all students (.

trying to find evidence to back this up, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2016

This seems to show that ye June 2016 around 60% non-eu immigration is Students - 74,000 are not students -can you show me where you found "is nearly all"?

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's that attitude that would likely create a stronger leave vote than before.

You're essentially saying that people only voted leave because they didn't know better - if they knew as much as you they'd have voted the same way as you did. You still fundamentally do not understand why people voted leave.

You talk like I'm a politician! Just calling it as I see it. I didn't vote. I tried to, but wasn't registered.

Why do you think people fundamentally voted to leave? What rationale do you think was important to them? UKIP certainally targeted immigration, and moved the argument very successfully away from the economy, knowing that if it was focused around the economy...they would lose. If people feel Brisket hit their wallet, giving them less money, then they would vote remain imo.

 

[the dza]

Non EU migrants will broadly fall into 3 categories - students, people with work visas, and the spouses/dependants of british citizens. All of these have to meet criteria for earnings, language tests etc.

That's a contrast from an unskilled EU worker.

Why would it be bad, in theory, to treat all immigrants the same? Why should it be easier for a Polish couple who work in a factory to come here and get on with life, than it is for a British person who works in the same factory, who wants to live here with a non-EU spouse?

 

[Gutter Boy]

trying to find evidence to back this up, https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopula...migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/august2016

This seems to show that ye June 2016 around 60% non-eu immigration is Students - 74,000 are not students -can you show me where you found "is nearly all"?

My sentence continued after the bracket - it said students and highly-skilled workers. Even still, 60% is a very big chunk. And just silly they are in migration figures.

Why do you think people fundamentally voted to leave? What rationale do you think was important to them? UKIP certainally targeted immigration, and moved the argument very successfully away from the economy, knowing that if it was focused around the economy...they would lose. If people feel Brisket hit their wallet, giving them less money, then they would vote remain imo.

IMO most of Middle England voted on the sovereignty issue. Reformation utopianism. A protest against things being determined by a foreign power that couldn't be got ridden of. The belief that things will be better and more prosperous without external meddling.

Everyone knew there'd be short-term economic pain while we re-build our connections to the world.

Non EU migrants will broadly fall into 3 categories - students, people with work visas, and the spouses/dependants of british citizens. All of these have to meet criteria for earnings, language tests etc. With regard spouses, the criteria these days is that

That's a contrast from an unskilled EU worker.

Why would it be bad, in theory, to treat all immigrants the same? Why should it be easier for a Polish couple who work in a factory to come here and get on with life, than it is for a British person who works in the same factory, who wants to live here with a non-EU spouse?

Exactly. The EU system is highly discriminatory purely on nationality, rather than value to the economy or personal/social ties.

It's also completely unmanageable from a government point of view - how can you possible manage public services when you have absolutely no idea of or control over who or how many people are going to turn up on your shores every month.

 

[parklane1]

I really doubt Brexit will happen, between the lawyers and the Labour party I just sadly do not see it. Great shame that but it is what it is.

It will happen mate have no fear and there will be other countries voting to leave over the next decade or so.

 

[r-u-s-x]

My sentence continued after the bracket - it said students and highly-skilled workers. Even still, 60% is a very big chunk. And just silly they are in migration figures.

earlier you responded-
More immigrants come into the U.K. from outside the EU! why is this hidden? Why don't we address that? And retain some form of free movement and market access?
"That's mainly Chinese and Indian students. It's just a dumb home office thing that puts them in migration figures."

You are right 60% is a real big amount so no need to overinflate them, I was not checking to prove you wrong but because I was surprised / shocked that this may be true that most non-EU immigration was students. I always try to check questionable facts, others may just repeat them and use to progress an argument

Regarding including them in stats its probably good they are included as they still use resources, housing etc on the ONS website and beyond there are discussion papers on it. They should also be easily removed for other discussions.

 

[SpurMeUp]

earlier you responded-
More immigrants come into the U.K. from outside the EU! why is this hidden? Why don't we address that? And retain some form of free movement and market access?
"That's mainly Chinese and Indian students. It's just a dumb home office thing that puts them in migration figures."

You are right 60% is a real big amount so no need to overinflate them, I was not checking to prove you wrong but because I was surprised / shocked that this may be true that most non-EU immigration was students. I always try to check questionable facts, others may just repeat them and use to progress an argument

Regarding including them in stats its probably good they are included as they still use resources, housing etc on the ONS website and beyond there are discussion papers on it. They should also be easily removed for other discussions.

Getting a student visa is one 'way in'. They have tightened it up, previously, after studying you could work here on your student visa, and then get an extended visa, after 5 years or so you then apply for leave to remain - become a British citizen. Now you have to find a company who will sponsor you which is more difficult. That company has to demonstrate to the government that they can't find workers to do that particular job here - impossible to police in reality. However, this is still 'a way in' for people who really want to get a UK passport. One of the only ways for many. So these people should be included in figures. Many return home, many don't. Many that don't provide a lot of value to our economy.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Regarding including them in stats its probably good they are included as they still use resources, housing etc on the ONS website and beyond there are discussion papers on it. They should also be easily removed for other discussions.

Although they typically stay for 3/4 years and then are replaced by the next cohort. So they are migration, but are not really net migration.

The problem including them in migration figures is they become a political football. They bring £5bil a year into the country, subsidising UK students and research, but are treated as undesirable by those who see the numbers and confuse them with economic migrants. May and Osborne battled about this for years, but unfortunately Osborne never got her to back down.

 

[Gutter Boy]

Getting a student visa is one 'way in'. They have tightened it up, previously, after studying you could work here on your student visa, and then get an extended visa, after 5 years or so you then apply for leave to remain - become a British citizen. Now you have to find a company who will sponsor you which is more difficult. That company has to demonstrate to the government that they can't find workers to do that particular job here - impossible to police in reality. However, this is still 'a way in' for people who really want to get a UK passport. One of the only ways for many. So these people should be included in figures. Many return home, many don't. Many that don't provide a lot of value to our economy.

I think there have been a few high profile cases at fake FE colleges and London Met Uni, but the numbers are miniscule compared to the 500,000 proper students.

Remember China and the US students are the biggest two groups, not countries you would usually associate with those that 'skip bail'.

 

[Danishfurniturelover]

Almost like you think that it not happening would be best?

The irony that if we voted today, knowing what we know now, we wouldn't vote for exit, but for remain.

More immigrants come into the U.K. from outside the EU! why is this hidden? Why don't we address that? And retain some form of free movement and market access?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

Absolutely not.

I believe Brexit even more today then I did in the summer, the way the people who campaigned for remain have behaved since the result has only reinforced my opinion. Being deadly serious here, I do not think the Financial Times should be allowed to be sold in this country after the way it's editor has behaved, I get that all papers are biased but he has crossed a line.

I voted out for ideological reasons and they remain, I want to be part of a country that engages and trades with the world. I do not want to be part of a country without any confidence or get up and go, a country that wishes to remain part of a dying corrupt club just because it does not like change. I want to be part of a country that has total control of itself and is not beholden to judges in another country.

Everyone I know who voted leave are more sure then ever that what they did was right. Maybe the wavering voters could be persuaded to change sides in another referendum, project fear, which is still on going has been full on and might convince some.

Another thing that has strengthened after the result is my complete and utter contempt for those on the left of the political divide(most remain were left wing) I always knew the liberals and labour were a bunch of whingers but I guess I never realized how much. I am of course always polite to these fools, whether on here or when I meet them in everyday life, but I straight away discount anything they tell me because they are so pathetic their opinion is worthless to me.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Absolutely not.

I believe Brexit even more today then I did in the summer, the way the people who campaigned for remain have behaved since the result has only reinforced my opinion. Being deadly serious here, I do not think the Financial Times should be allowed to be sold in this country after the way it's editor has behaved, I get that all papers are biased but he has crossed a line.

I voted out for ideological reasons and they remain, I want to be part of a country that engages and trades with the world. I do not want to be part of a country without any confidence or get up and go, a country that wishes to remain part of a dying corrupt club just because it does not like change. I want to be part of a country that has total control of itself and is not beholden to judges in another country.

Everyone I know who voted leave are more sure then ever that what they did was right. Maybe the wavering voters could be persuaded to change sides in another referendum, project fear, which is still on going has been full on and might convince some.

Another thing that has strengthened after the result is my complete and utter contempt for those on the left of the political divide(most remain were left wing) I always knew the liberals and labour were a bunch of whingers but I guess I never realized how much. I am of course always polite to these fools, whether on here or when I meet them in everyday life, but I straight away discount anything they tell me because they are so pathetic their opinion is worthless to me.

It seems that Brexit is highly personal to you. Tribal. Similar to the bile we feel for the arse. It doesn't seem to be much to do with what is best for the country.

I get that the media is biased, but when a paper like the FT are so entrenched in a point of view, it is because they are sure its not in the interests of us, the U.K. It drives them bonkers because its so irrational. Its a bit like a vote for us to get rid of our Argentinian manager. If there was a vote to oust Poch, you would feel it was plain and simply not in our interests. That's how the FT feel. That's how people who weigh up the cold positives and negatives from a financial perspective feel. the fact that they pised you off, just shows how irrational your belief in Brexit is. With respect. And I would feel the same as there is a lot of provocative black or white nonsense - when something this complex is never that simple. but it is all very tribal; those in the remain camp are no better, probably worse.

From my perspective change is a good thing generally. Its advantageous to shake things up. There are merits to the UK becoming more agile, and free from the interests of many nations. But in this particular case, there are many more advantages to being part of a union that puts free trade at its core. The EU is in essence a customs union. Its also a union born out of war. A continent having a mechanism to trade and work, and we haven't seen member countries at conflict since it was formed. But these arguments seem to be totally irrelevant to many. Do you think that is because when we go there, and weigh things up honestly, there is a very strong rational for being part of the customs union? Is that why instead we have emotive images of Turks lining up, or 350m to the NHS?

The EU doesn't control us really. It takes away some of the hassle to do with international trade, it doesn't really impact on sovereignty. But why make it about reality? When it can be reduced to a them and us?

Ultimately BoJo was right when he Tweeted a year ago, that leaving the EU is simply a massive waste of our governments time. How can you want to leave the EU but still be part of it? How can we exit but remain in the single market? The EU is a massive part of the world, the part that is physically closest to us. Statements like 'I want to be part of a country that trades with the world' are simply at odds with a Bread Stick reality.

I hope the government can deliver the impossible, exit a customs union only to remain in it for trade, while providing more nimble access to all other countries. Everyone does. It's just that some people can not see it happening. And while Brisket unravels, our government is neglecting schools, the civil services, hospitals, reforms...the real things that can make a difference to people lives. Imo.

 

[AuroRaman]

The last two posts were fantastic


Sitting on my porcelain throne using Fapatalk

 

[the dza]

Another thing that has strengthened after the result is my complete and utter contempt for those on the left of the political divide(most remain were left wing) I always knew the liberals and labour were a bunch of whingers but I guess I never realized how much. I am of course always polite to these fools, whether on here or when I meet them in everyday life, but I straight away discount anything they tell me because they are so pathetic their opinion is worthless to me.

I think most people who are actually left wing in their views (rather than tinkering around the edges of what a Tory government wants to do) were pretty evenly split between leave and remain. I voted remain, but I'm not a passionate remainer. My vote was simply "better the devil you know."

The really rabid remainers imo are the centrists i.e. those on the left of the Tory Party, those on the right of the Labour Party and the Lib Dems. There are exceptions, but mainly it's the Ken Clarke, Tony Blair, Nick Clegg types.