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Politics, politics, politics

My post was in answer to this and said that that was you view which i do not agree with.

The leave campaign managed to completely shut down any discussion about the complexities of Brexit by accusing anyone who raised them of "doing down Britain".

I have been round the houses with you about Brexit and you made your views pretty clear even before the vote. I am not going round and round in circle with this/you anymore about the rights or wrongs. As you have said MANY times lets wait and see what happens instead of rehashing the same things over and over again.

If you don't want to discuss it, why jump in on a conversation?

OK. I will make it easier. Can you find a link to any policy paper from the leave campaign that gives detail on their proposals or find any speech by a leading member of the leave campaign where they tackle an issue that would be difficult to the leave argument?
 
If you don't want to discuss it, why jump in on a conversation?

OK. I will make it easier. Can you find a link to any policy paper from the leave campaign that gives detail on their proposals or find any speech by a leading member of the leave campaign where they tackle an issue that would be difficult to the leave argument?


Jump in:rolleyes: you made a comment with no basis of truth so you should expect someone to jump in :rolleyes:.
 
NI has a catholic majority now. When that filters through to voting age in a few years, hopefully Ireland will get reunited.

There's not even much attachment between England/Wales and protestant NI. It's actually Scotland that has the bonds.

Essentially I don't see much of a future for NI and GB (great, or just plain Britain without Scotland) whatever happens with Brexit and indyref2
That's assuming all Catholics want a united Ireland. I don't think that's a given.
 
Another wake up for the political eastablishments around the world.

The fact the media are reporting it is such a shock speaks volumes for their views of the world.

Nobody gets the anger. As a member of a visible ethnic minority and a card-carrying member of the 'liberal' class, I've never been more astonished by the blindness of the intelligentsia, the cosmopolitan twitterers, the white-collar professionals and everyone else I've met that doesn't understand what's happening outside the urban bubbles that they inhabit.

Globalization, automation and the internationalist consensus has left behind millions upon millions of people in the West, people now entering their second and third generations of despair, poverty and dependency. Human beings, shorn of hope and the opportunity to live a better life... but constantly told by their social betters (economists, political scientists, the media, the blogging class sipping lattes at urban Starbucks) that the faceless, heartless processes that shifted away their jobs, their livelihoods and their dignity were good for them in unobservable ways, or, alternately, that they were possessed of 'privilege' for daring to be born white, and that their poverty didn't matter as much as that of other ethnic groups did.

When you destroy someone's community, their self-worth, their identity, and then utterly ignore them and their concerns in favour of pandering to narrow, extremely concentrated urban ideals of acceptable social and ethical power structures for election after election...well, then you're going to find that they'll definitely listen to the first person who gives even the slightest hint of understanding their concerns, even if that person does so by pandering to racism against largely innocent minorities, sexism in pursuit of bygone times and base incivility. It's better, after all, than being ignored and forgotten.

In both Brexit and this presidential election, the poorer segments of society arguably voted against their own best interests by going for Brexit and Trump, respectively. Brexit will leave them poorer off than they were before, and Trump won't give a damn about them when it comes to giving more tax cuts to the rich (his own class) and slashing the very social services that these people now depend upon (because that's what the Republicans invariably do now). The base, chuavinistic racism and nationalism that definitely underlay Trump's campaign will be used to provide a bread-and-games distraction to the poor masses (probably by spacegoating similarly poor immigrants) while the rich and the powerful continue to prosper amidst growing wealth inequality, because that's inevitably what happens in populist surges like this. On all this, the liberal media and twittering class arguably got it right.

But they never understood that for the poor and the masses who came out today to pour more fuel onto the growing embers of resentment, none of that matters. They weren't looking at a tally of costs and benefits over a latte at f*cking Starbucks when deciding their vote. They were voting to make the liberal classes understand their pain, understand the anger and resentment that comes with being systematically ignored and having your worldview, your dignity and your self-worth stripped away and mocked by the 'other' classes - if Trump brings change, it will be in burning down the 'establishment', and although that might hurt the people who voted today, it will hurt the liberal chattering classes more. And that's the primary aim - fixing things is nice when it happens, but the priority is to destroy the system which allowed the liberal classes to assume the air of moral and intellectual superiority over those globalization and unfettered capitalism left behind.

The great recession exposed the cracks in our societies in the West - the rapidly growing wealth divide between the haves and the have-nots, the marginalization of the former working classes, the shrinking of the middle class amidst a general flow of wealth upwards, the shrinking of social safety nets amidst a renewed 'I've got mine, Jack' attitude and a severe loss in the quality and quantity of jobs once available to people who possessed little but a desire to work and better themselves. And, at this moment, when the tide should have turned against the systems which were remorselessly effecting this change, when the realization should have been that this affects us all, black, brown or white - the chattering liberal classes instead retreated into laughing at the white poor who dotted America and England's post-industrial towns and wastelands, calling them privileged and backwards, accusing them of injustices committed by virtue of their skin color and patronizing them by talking past them and assuming that they'd listen to 'experts' and the accepted consensus as the liberal elite do.

They don't anymore. They won't anymore. And the more my fellow urban liberals stray from what it means to search for human dignity for *all* amidst a general concentration of wealth in the hands of those at the top and a loss of jobs of all kinds to automation and offshoring....the more they will be stupefied and shocked by the masses of voters they deride as stupid, racist, sexist et al. as they continue to try and overturn the systems by which the post-war world is governed.
 
@DubaiSpur i'm sure you've nailed the feelings of many there, but this is not the answer, globalisation and automation isn't a political idea, it's an inevitable fact of human evolution, we can't fight this anymore than we can stop the sun dying
 
@DubaiSpur i'm sure you've nailed the feelings of many there, but this is not the answer, globalisation and automation isn't a political idea, it's an inevitable fact of human evolution, we can't fight this anymore than we can stop the sun dying
then its what goes with that - perhaps guaranteed minimum income - If globalization and automation is inevitable and leads to a richer economy then soften the blow.
 
@DubaiSpur i'm sure you've nailed the feelings of many there, but this is not the answer, globalisation and automation isn't a political idea, it's an inevitable fact of human evolution, we can't fight this anymore than we can stop the sun dying

If you tell someone watching their life, their family heritage, their community disappear..if you tell them that they simply can't fight it, do you think they'll listen? Is that human nature, is that a part of human evolution? To accept death or decline without a fight?

Understand - I *am* a member of the liberal class. I agree wholeheartedly that globalisation and automation are going to be utterly inevitable facets of future human existence. To me, it is as plain as day. And I believe from the bottom of my heart that globalisation has done a lot of good for the world - I have travelled to countries that were miserable and poverty-stricken just a generation ago, but where young people are now growing up with full bellies, an education, opportunities and hope for the future. Hope, that they can provide a better life for themselves, their children and their parents; all brought about because of the globalisation of commerce. I consider myself blessed to have lived in both the United Kingdom and Canada, two open, welcoming societies filled with good people who looked at me not as an alien minority, but as a human being, and rarely treated me differently because of my status as a visible ethnicity. That is also something I attribute to globalisation - it would have been a different story a century ago. Globalisation and automation are intrinsic facets of life both today and in the near future, and I'll defend them with my dying breath.

But they have their downsides - and they are truly terrible to witness. In the rust belt towns of rural America, people have had *everything* taken from them - their chance at a livelihood was taken by the companies who sent their jobs overseas and shuttered the rusted factories that now blight the crumbling urban landscape that signifies every run-down American highway town. Their communities were destroyed by the socioeconomic forces that forced those that could to move away, and doomed the rest to stagnation and decay amid the buzzing neon motel signs, foreclosed houses and rusted telephone poles that signify the death of the American dream. Their family members and friends were lost to addiction, disease and death as an uncaring polity looked the other way. Their self-worth was stolen by being forced into government dependency that was then derided as undeserved welfare for losers who couldn't or wouldn't get ahead. And, finally, their status as empathetic human beings was stolen by a cafe-sipping urban elite that branded them racists and backwoods savages when they dared to voice their concerns about the crumbling of their way of life, and the loss of their status as participants in the American story to immigrants, offshoring and the urban ideal of globalized wealth for some, grinding poverty for others.

When you go up to a man who is watching all those downsides, and tell him that it's useless to fight it...do you think he'll listen?

The same story that caused what happened today happened in post-industrial Britain - in the north, in former coal towns and manufacturing hubs, now entering a third generation of dependency and joblessness. And it will happen in post-industrial towns across the West as globalisation and automation take further hold. The people left behind by the course that we're on as a species won't sit back and die while being labelled racists and backwards macarons for daring to disagree with the zeitgeist of globalisation and automation - to them, it's better to fight and burn down the system if they can't win, because at least they'll ensure that those that took their lives away lose as well. This is what happened in Wisconsin, Ohio and Michigan. This is what will happen elsewhere as well. The horrible racism, the anti-immigrant backlash - these are symptoms. The cause is the struggle that these people are now undertaking.

It might be too late to stop this happening, but it is incumbent upon urban liberals to realise what they are up against - because they've lost their way. When they should have been prioritising reaching out to these people, fighting for those in power to provide solutions to these problems, fighting for *real* causes that involve everyone in the crumbling working and middle classes standing up to these processes and saying 'enough - either you provide for those of us left behind, *all of us*, or we try to put an end to this'...they instead focused on calling these people racists, sexists, misogynists, xenophobes, Nazis and whatever else sprang to mind. They did not advocate for possible solutions to the issues created by globalisation and automation - solutions ranging from a basic income (as @r-u-s-x pointed out) for all to new infrastructural and retraining programs on scales that dwarf anything proposed by the fearful political class, afraid as they were of upsetting their donors and the wealthy by levying more taxes on them. Instead, they retreated into gender politics and identity politics, and used these noble pursuits as weapons against the very people whom they should have been out fighting for. In short, they created a liberal urban bubble of accepted social norms, and accused everyone outside of it of being a horrible person, and trusted, incredibly, that this would solve the growing problems of the day.

It did not. The media, and the chattering classes, must realise it by now. Because if they haven't, well, they have many, many more shocks coming.
 
Nobody gets the anger. As a member of a visible ethnic minority and a card-carrying member of the 'liberal' class, I've never been more astonished by the blindness of the intelligentsia, the cosmopolitan twitterers, the white-collar professionals and everyone else I've met that doesn't understand what's happening outside the urban bubbles that they inhabit.

Globalization, automation and the internationalist consensus has left behind millions upon millions of people in the West, people now entering their second and third generations of despair, poverty and dependency. Human beings, shorn of hope and the opportunity to live a better life... but constantly told by their social betters (economists, political scientists, the media, the blogging class sipping lattes at urban Starbucks) that the faceless, heartless processes that shifted away their jobs, their livelihoods and their dignity were good for them in unobservable ways, or, alternately, that they were possessed of 'privilege' for daring to be born white, and that their poverty didn't matter as much as that of other ethnic groups did.

When you destroy someone's community, their self-worth, their identity, and then utterly ignore them and their concerns in favour of pandering to narrow, extremely concentrated urban ideals of acceptable social and ethical power structures for election after election...well, then you're going to find that they'll definitely listen to the first person who gives even the slightest hint of understanding their concerns, even if that person does so by pandering to racism against largely innocent minorities, sexism in pursuit of bygone times and base incivility. It's better, after all, than being ignored and forgotten.

In both Brexit and this presidential election, the poorer segments of society arguably voted against their own best interests by going for Brexit and Trump, respectively. Brexit will leave them poorer off than they were before, and Trump won't give a damn about them when it comes to giving more tax cuts to the rich (his own class) and slashing the very social services that these people now depend upon (because that's what the Republicans invariably do now). The base, chuavinistic racism and nationalism that definitely underlay Trump's campaign will be used to provide a bread-and-games distraction to the poor masses (probably by escaped goating similarly poor immigrants) while the rich and the powerful continue to prosper amidst growing wealth inequality, because that's inevitably what happens in populist surges like this. On all this, the liberal media and twittering class arguably got it right.

But they never understood that for the poor and the masses who came out today to pour more fuel onto the growing embers of resentment, none of that matters. They weren't looking at a tally of costs and benefits over a latte at f*cking Starbucks when deciding their vote. They were voting to make the liberal classes understand their pain, understand the anger and resentment that comes with being systematically ignored and having your worldview, your dignity and your self-worth stripped away and mocked by the 'other' classes - if Trump brings change, it will be in burning down the 'establishment', and although that might hurt the people who voted today, it will hurt the liberal chattering classes more. And that's the primary aim - fixing things is nice when it happens, but the priority is to destroy the system which allowed the liberal classes to assume the air of moral and intellectual superiority over those globalization and unfettered capitalism left behind.

The great recession exposed the cracks in our societies in the West - the rapidly growing wealth divide between the haves and the have-nots, the marginalization of the former working classes, the shrinking of the middle class amidst a general flow of wealth upwards, the shrinking of social safety nets amidst a renewed 'I've got mine, Jack' attitude and a severe loss in the quality and quantity of jobs once available to people who possessed little but a desire to work and better themselves. And, at this moment, when the tide should have turned against the systems which were remorselessly effecting this change, when the realization should have been that this affects us all, black, brown or white - the chattering liberal classes instead retreated into laughing at the white poor who dotted America and England's post-industrial towns and wastelands, calling them privileged and backwards, accusing them of injustices committed by virtue of their skin color and patronizing them by talking past them and assuming that they'd listen to 'experts' and the accepted consensus as the liberal elite do.

They don't anymore. They won't anymore. And the more my fellow urban liberals stray from what it means to search for human dignity for *all* amidst a general concentration of wealth in the hands of those at the top and a loss of jobs of all kinds to automation and offshoring....the more they will be stupefied and shocked by the masses of voters they deride as stupid, racist, sexist et al. as they continue to try and overturn the systems by which the post-war world is governed.


It is neo-liberal, so called free market economics that did it. Simples
 
If you tell someone watching their life, their family heritage, their community disappear..if you tell them that they simply can't fight it, do you think they'll listen? Is that human nature, is that a part of human evolution? To accept death or decline without a fight?

Understand - I *am* a member of the liberal class. I agree wholeheartedly that globalisation and automation are going to be utterly inevitable facets of future human existence. To me, it is as plain as day. And I believe from the bottom of my heart that globalisation has done a lot of good for the world - I have travelled to countries that were miserable and poverty-stricken just a generation ago, but where young people are now growing up with full bellies, an education, opportunities and hope for the future. Hope, that they can provide a better life for themselves, their children and their parents; all brought about because of the globalisation of commerce. I consider myself blessed to have lived in both the United Kingdom and Canada, two open, welcoming societies filled with good people who looked at me not as an alien minority, but as a human being, and rarely treated me differently because of my status as a visible ethnicity. That is also something I attribute to globalisation - it would have been a different story a century ago. Globalisation and automation are intrinsic facets of life both today and in the near future, and I'll defend them with my dying breath.

But they have their downsides - and they are truly terrible to witness. In the rust belt towns of rural America, people have had *everything* taken from them - their chance at a livelihood was taken by the companies who sent their jobs overseas and shuttered the rusted factories that now blight the crumbling urban landscape that signifies every run-down American highway town. Their communities were destroyed by the socioeconomic forces that forced those that could to move away, and doomed the rest to stagnation and decay amid the buzzing neon motel signs, foreclosed houses and rusted telephone poles that signify the death of the American dream. Their family members and friends were lost to addiction, disease and death as an uncaring polity looked the other way. Their self-worth was stolen by being forced into government dependency that was then derided as undeserved welfare for losers who couldn't or wouldn't get ahead. And, finally, their status as empathetic human beings was stolen by a cafe-sipping urban elite that branded them racists and backwoods savages when they dared to voice their concerns about the crumbling of their way of life, and the loss of their status as participants in the American story to immigrants, offshoring and the urban ideal of globalized wealth for some, grinding poverty for others.

When you go up to a man who is watching all those downsides, and tell him that it's useless to fight it...do you think he'll listen?

The same story that caused what happened today happened in post-industrial Britain - in the north, in former coal towns and manufacturing hubs, now entering a third generation of dependency and joblessness. And it will happen in post-industrial towns across the West as globalisation and automation take further hold. The people left behind by the course that we're on as a species won't sit back and die while being labelled racists and backwards macarons for daring to disagree with the zeitgeist of globalisation and automation - to them, it's better to fight and burn down the system if they can't win, because at least they'll ensure that those that took their lives away lose as well. This is what happened in Wisconsin, Ohio and Michigan. This is what will happen elsewhere as well. The horrible racism, the anti-immigrant backlash - these are symptoms. The cause is the struggle that these people are now undertaking.

It might be too late to stop this happening, but it is incumbent upon urban liberals to realise what they are up against - because they've lost their way. When they should have been prioritising reaching out to these people, fighting for those in power to provide solutions to these problems, fighting for *real* causes that involve everyone in the crumbling working and middle classes standing up to these processes and saying 'enough - either you provide for those of us left behind, *all of us*, or we try to put an end to this'...they instead focused on calling these people racists, sexists, misogynists, xenophobes, Nazis and whatever else sprang to mind. They did not advocate for possible solutions to the issues created by globalisation and automation - solutions ranging from a basic income (as @r-u-s-x pointed out) for all to new infrastructural and retraining programs on scales that dwarf anything proposed by the fearful political class, afraid as they were of upsetting their donors and the wealthy by levying more taxes on them. Instead, they retreated into gender politics and identity politics, and used these noble pursuits as weapons against the very people whom they should have been out fighting for. In short, they created a liberal urban bubble of accepted social norms, and accused everyone outside of it of being a horrible person, and trusted, incredibly, that this would solve the growing problems of the day.

It did not. The media, and the chattering classes, must realise it by now. Because if they haven't, well, they have many, many more shocks coming.

i think you are right but i see no logic in this, a republican government makes things worse for them
 
I am of the left...the real left...the economic left and I agree wholeheartedly with DubaiSpurs. Once the left was all about raising people up economically. Now it's about whatever trendy social issue comes along. The rot started when parties of the left allowed themselves to be taken over my the elites. You are right in that the café dwellers commit to social causes that don't rock their economic boat. They spend sssooo much time discussing gay rights, issues pertaining to feminism etc., but really couldn't give a toss about factory closures and welfare cuts. These issues just aren't sexy enough for them. To put it into perspective, upper middle class woman sit around bemoaning the so called corporate glass ceiling and identify as 'radical' feminists and 'leftists', but are completely disconnected to exploited migrant women working in sweat shops doing piece work. Says it all really. I despise them as much as I despise the Tories, Trump and the rest of the elite.
 
i think you are right but i see no logic in this, a republican government makes things worse for them

Much worse. Like Brexit will make things worse for the British poor. Not a cent of the tax cuts for the rich will reach them, and all that will 'trickle down' to the poverty-stricken rural people of America will be the urine of the wealthy. This is the Republican way. But you're assuming that they did this out of self-interest: I'm only trying to demonstrate that they did this because they weren't listened to during all the years when both parties happily maintained a consensus on globalization, immigration and automation destroying American jobs. When you're never listened to by the urban classes profiting from a phenomena you're bring shafted by, and when you're patronized or (alternately) called a racist or sexist when you *do* object to the system in place that's destroying your identity, you'll do what the voters of Ohio, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and countless other states did today - you tell the system to go f*ck itself in return, and vote for the one guy who seems even remotely interested in your worldview, racism, xenophobia and all.
 
@DubaiSpur i'm sure you've nailed the feelings of many there, but this is not the answer, globalisation and automation isn't a political idea, it's an inevitable fact of human evolution, we can't fight this anymore than we can stop the sun dying

Yeah and I'll bet the Romanovs felt there was no alternative to their despotism either, and we all know how that ended.
 
Well how long until Chump builds the wall, gets Mexico to pay for it, locks Clinton up and pulls out of NATO? I think in four years time, there will be lots of disillusioned Chump voters. Guess what will change? Obama Care will be gone and there will be tax cuts for the rich, you can guarantee those two!
 
Wonder whether we will be at the back of the line for a fair trade deal with the US now.

Just need a Le Penn victory in France and we will have quite a few new allies now to break free from the strangle hold of the elites.
 
I could even see Corbyn getting in at the next election, his politics are the opposite of mine but as I wont be voting in that election it wont matter to me. I got to say I kind of hope Corbyn can win the next election hashtag fcuk the elites, I am not sure what this hashtag thing is.

Loving people deciding on what they want. Lets get Corbyn in as PM and Farage as his foreign minsiter.
 
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