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Politics, politics, politics

scaramanga said:
There's just something thoroughly off about it in my head.

The main problem is that if one could magic up money at any time without any cost, we would all do it all the time. For the same reason perpetual motion doesn't exist, neither can free money.
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I don't think they could/would do it all the time as then the (hyper)inflation you talked about would probably happen.

To change the subject a little -- Brexit...

Currently, we seem to be heading towards a 'Hard Brexit' (exiting the single market etc.) I'm not sure what to think about it, but I do think that the issue of the EU for our country can only be put to bed if we no longer have free movement.
 
the dza said:
I don't think they could/would do it all the time as then the (hyper)inflation you talked about would probably happen.

To change the subject a little -- Brexit...

Currently, we seem to be heading towards a 'Hard Brexit' (exiting the single market etc.) I'm not sure what to think about it, but I do think that the issue of the EU for our country can only be put to bed if we no longer have free movement.
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Sadly I fear that boat has sailed!
Cameron has a great deal to answer for........but spilt milk and all that!
 
the dza said:
I don't think they could/would do it all the time as then the (hyper)inflation you talked about would probably happen.
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I don't think they could once.

QE works because the buy back is built into the whole scheme, the gilts have expiry dates. It doesn't work to just print money and then promise to destroy some later - the markets don't belive that.

For the same reason, you couldn't cancel gilts this time and just promise not to in the future, that mechanism has to be tied in.

the dza said:
To change the subject a little -- Brexit...

Currently, we seem to be heading towards a 'Hard Brexit' (exiting the single market etc.) I'm not sure what to think about it, but I do think that the issue of the EU for our country can only be put to bed if we no longer have free movement.
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Anything you hear from either side right now is an opening negotiation position.

We've set ours out - free trade, no freedom of movement. They've set theirs out - no free trade without freedom of movement.

As with all negotiations, we'll end up somewhere in the middle. Hopefully that will be a position of free trade with freedom of movement but without any benefits being due without contributing first. I suspect we'll push for a clause that only opens up the freedom of movement 2 years after EU entry for newcomers too.
 
scaramanga said:
I don't think they could once.

QE works because the buy back is built into the whole scheme, the gilts have expiry dates. It doesn't work to just print money and then promise to destroy some later - the markets don't belive that.

For the same reason, you couldn't cancel gilts this time and just promise not to in the future, that mechanism has to be tied in.


Anything you hear from either side right now is an opening negotiation position.

We've set ours out - free trade, no freedom of movement. They've set theirs out - no free trade without freedom of movement.

As with all negotiations, we'll end up somewhere in the middle. Hopefully that will be a position of free trade with freedom of movement but without any benefits being due without contributing first. I suspect we'll push for a clause that only opens up the freedom of movement 2 years after EU entry for newcomers too.
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Only way we get that deal is if we do the same for UK citizens, which we could have done without leaving. I can't see any situation where UK will have a special deal that offers greater control whilst still giving us access to the free market.

But even if we did that still goes against the out means out message.
 
r-u-s-x said:
Only way we get that deal is if we do the same for UK citizens, which we could have done without leaving. I can't see any situation where UK will have a special deal that offers greater control whilst still giving us access to the free market.

But even if we did that still goes against the out means out message.
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We should do the same for UK citizens - no country should be obliged to pay for our scroungers any more than we should theirs. I don't recall that ever being an option in discussions before - I thought the EU was pretty firm on all that.

I find it hard to see an agreement that doesn't end up in more control with access to the market. Both sides have set out their opening positions, both sides will move towards an agreement from there - the EU's opening position of keep free movement and you can keep free trade is way more generous than most expected.

As long as we can all keep the 'tards like Juncker out of it (and it seems Merkel wants that too) then we'll get to a sensible middle ground.
 
scaramanga said:
We should do the same for UK citizens - no country should be obliged to pay for our scroungers any more than we should theirs. I don't recall that ever being an option in discussions before - I thought the EU was pretty firm on all that.

I find it hard to see an agreement that doesn't end up in more control with access to the market. Both sides have set out their opening positions, both sides will move towards an agreement from there - the EU's opening position of keep free movement and you can keep free trade is way more generous than most expected.

As long as we can all keep the 'tards like Juncker out of it (and it seems Merkel wants that too) then we'll get to a sensible middle ground.
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It is always an option, basically we have to offer eu same as uk. So if we were determined not to pay benefits for eu citizens that have not paid in we could have done this at any time.

On the scroungers point, you know under capitalism full employment is not really possible or desirable. We have unemployed by design and then demonise them
 
r-u-s-x said:
It is always an option, basically we have to offer eu same as uk. So if we were determined not to pay benefits for eu citizens that have not paid in we could have done this at any time.
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Ah, I thought you meant ex-pats, not domestic citizens.

Yeah, that's been my argument for ages now. If you want to cut immigration just stop having such a ridiculously generous welfare state and stop making small businesses pay their cleaners what most countries pay their graduates.

r-u-s-x said:
On the scroungers point, you know under capitalism full employment is not really possible or desirable. We have unemployed by design and then demonise them
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Yep.
 
Meeting in the middle with the EU is probably the best we can hope for.

One thing though, is that if they are seen to offer us a deal that's basically better than being in the EU, then every other phucker in the EU will want the same deal. I think the Federalists in the EU fear that, so they might not be bluffing with their opening position.
 
the dza said:
Meeting in the middle with the EU is probably the best we can hope for.

One thing though, is that if they are seen to offer us a deal that's basically better than being in the EU, then every other phucker in the EU will want the same deal. I think the Federalists in the EU fear that, so they might not be bluffing with their opening position.
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I don't think the federalists are going to get much of a say.

Merkel has already said she wants Juncker well out of the way and for individual countries to negotiate their own positions. She always gets her way.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Merkel got bummed in the state polls, because of the move to the extreme left that so much of Europe has had the last decade I now fear we will move to the extreme right.
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Care to expand my understanding is France and Germany (two main ones) have moved right over the last decade rather than extreme left, ditto for most other economies.
 
I think someone should start a Brexit thread. Or brisket. Board of the term... Brisket means brisket.

"Soft" Brisket and no one wins.
"Hard" or "Clean" Brisket and UK faces tariffs, loss of investment/banks/car firms...

I slightly prefer Hard Brisket as it appeals to the anarchists in all of us.
 
r-u-s-x01 said:
Care to expand my understanding is France and Germany (two main ones) have moved right over the last decade rather than extreme left, ditto for most other economies.
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Not a problem but you need to be prepared to accept your understanding is wrong. Countries are still spending well beyond their means. That is before I even get started on some of their social policies.

The Germans have caused one of the biggest humanitarian crisis we have known. Merkel saying anyone was welcome in Germany can only be described as far left. She encouraged people to risk there life's getting to Germany and I blame her for some of the poor souls who drowned in the med.

Europe went to far to the left, in this country we voted out, I just hope that across Europe people do the same and do not go to extreme right wing or Nazi parties.

Sadly in Europe they often swing from one extreme to the other. In England when we have been to far over to the right (poll tax) we see a rise in moderate parties I.e. the liberal democrats. Now thanks to Cornyn the commie we only have the Tories. Lucky May seems to want to sit in the centre.

The issue for me is that some countries in Europe seem to have people quite close to power you would not want, like the Jew hating Le Pen.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Not a problem but you need to be prepared to accept your understanding is wrong. Countries are still spending well beyond their means. That is before I even get started on some of their social policies.

The Germans have caused one of the biggest humanitarian crisis we have known. Merkel saying anyone was welcome in Germany can only be described as far left. She encouraged people to risk there life's getting to Germany and I blame her for some of the poor souls who drowned in the med.

Europe went to far to the left, in this country we voted out, I just hope that across Europe people do the same and do not go to extreme right wing or Nazi parties.

Sadly in Europe they often swing from one extreme to the other. In England when we have been to far over to the right (poll tax) we see a rise in moderate parties I.e. the liberal democrats. Now thanks to Cornyn the commie we only have the Tories. Lucky May seems to want to sit in the centre.

The issue for me is that some countries in Europe seem to have people quite close to power you would not want, like the Jew hating Le Pen.
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When I get the chance will respond in full however perhaps take a look at the definition of hard left.

The immigration stance would be closest to the lib Democrats and you would not say they are a left wing party, or if you did you would be wrong
 
r-u-s-x01 said:
When I get the chance will respond in full however perhaps take a look at the definition of hard left.

The immigration stance would be closest to the lib Democrats and you would not say they are a left wing party, or if you did you would be wrong
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We might disagree on the term hard left and the is no real way round that as iy is two people with different interpretations of a term.

But on the lib dems, they themselves describe themselves as a left wing party.
 
r-u-s-x01 said:
When I get the chance will respond in full however perhaps take a look at the definition of hard left.

The immigration stance would be closest to the lib Democrats and you would not say they are a left wing party, or if you did you would be wrong
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I think that the EU is generally seen (rightly or wrongly) as a fairly left leaning institution. Over the last few years, most democracies have swung back towards the right.

That's why the EU will fail - it flew too close to the Sun. Had it stayed as the free trading enterprise it started as, everything would be just fine now. It's the irrelevant ones with their snouts in the trough like Juncker who are ruining it for the rest of us.
 
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