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Politics, politics, politics

galeforce said:
this is going to get thrown around all over the place, Farron is already demanding a general, but as you point out we don't vote for a PM anyway, we vote for a party
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As I say, technically we don't vote for a PM. In reality, people vote on the way that they eat bacon sandwiches, most don't have a clue who their local MP or local candidate is. IMO, there should be another general election.
 
the dza said:
As I say, technically we don't vote for a PM. In reality, people vote on the way that they eat bacon sandwiches, most don't have a clue who their local MP or local candidate is. IMO, there should be another general election.
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that's a fault of the electorate not of the system, May's mandate is no less than Cameron's

I don't think there "should" be another general on that principle but I think holding one would cement her position and give her a full five before having to jump into the reelection cycle so i'm sure she'll consider it
 
the dza said:
This article is by a barrister who is not a supporter of Corbyn's leadership. I quote the relevant part of the rules (that he explains at length in the article) below.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politic...-be-used-keep-jeremy-corbyn-leadership-ballot

ii. Where there is no vacancy, nominations may be sought by potential challengers each year prior to the annual session of party conference. In this case any nomination must be supported by 20 per cent of the Commons members of the PLP. Nominations not attaining this threshold shall be null and void.
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Jolyon Maugham was one of the people I was referring to when I said that there was an interesting discussion between David Allen Green and other legal bloggers on Twitter yesterday.

It's worth remembering that the one thing all of the legal bloggers agreed on was that this was not cut and dried and none of them could be certain how a judge would interpret the rules should a challenge get to court. A really shoddy bit of drafting, all told.
 
galeforce said:
that's a fault of the electorate not of the system, May's mandate is no less than Cameron's
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I agree, although I think the system should be changed to reflect what the bulk of the electorate think they are voting for (which is the party/PM, rather than just a constituency MP).

I'd also like to see automatic by-elections for MPs who resign the whip, rather than leave it up to the individual MP to have some scruples. Although I wouldn't have automatic by-elections for MPs who became de-selected by their party.

Won't happen, but there we go.
 
milo said:
Jolyon Maugham was one of the people I was referring to when I said that there was an interesting discussion between David Allen Green and other legal bloggers on Twitter yesterday.

It's worth remembering that the one thing all of the legal bloggers agreed on was that this was not cut and dried and none of them could be certain how a judge would interpret the rules should a challenge get to court. A really shoddy bit of drafting, all told.
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I agree that it's shoddy, it shouldn't be open to interpretation. We'll have to see how the NEC interprets it. At the minute, I think the NEC are roughly split between those who support Corbyn and those who don't. There is a lot of union influence on the NEC though, so I would guess that they will decide to interpret the rules in the way Maugham has done. I'm obviously biased, but it seems fairly clear to me (although badly worded) that the rules imply the leader is on the ballot and the "challengers" need the nominees.
 
the dza said:
I agree, although I think the system should be changed to reflect what the bulk of the electorate think they are voting for (which is the party/PM, rather than just a constituency MP).

I'd also like to see automatic by-elections for MPs who resign the whip, rather than leave it up to the individual MP to have some scruples. Although I wouldn't have automatic by-elections for MPs who became de-selected by their party.

Won't happen, but there we go.
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i'll give that some thought, my initial feeling is that they have been voted for on their policies rather than their affiliation so it shouldn't really matter
 
galeforce said:
i'll give that some thought, my initial feeling is that they have been voted for on their policies rather than their affiliation so it shouldn't really matter
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Don't most people vote for a particular party because of the party's policies, rather than what the constituency MP thinks? IMO, it's that plus the leader that most people vote for (party + leader). That's why, imo, if the leader changes there should be a general election. Likewise, if an MP changes sides or becomes an independent, there should be a by-election (unless that MP was kicked out of their party against their will).
 
the dza said:
Don't most people vote for a particular party because of the party's policies, rather than what the constituency MP thinks? IMO, it's that plus the leader that most people vote for (party + leader). That's why, imo, if the leader changes there should be a general election. Likewise, if an MP changes sides or becomes an independent, there should be a by-election (unless that MP was kicked out of their party against their will).
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I don't believe that's how the system is designed to work
 
the dza said:
I agree that it's shoddy, it shouldn't be open to interpretation. We'll have to see how the NEC interprets it. At the minute, I think the NEC are roughly split between those who support Corbyn and those who don't. There is a lot of union influence on the NEC though, so I would guess that they will decide to interpret the rules in the way Maugham has done. I'm obviously biased, but it seems fairly clear to me (although badly worded) that the rules imply the leader is on the ballot and the "challengers" need the nominees.
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I think the noises were today the NEC would allow Corbyn onto the ballot without the nominations.

I suspect that the NEC's decision is a political rather than legal one. There is an issue with legitimacy if Corbyn isn't on the ballot, even if he is a lame duck leader and him getting re-elected would split the party.
 
the dza said:
As I say, technically we don't vote for a PM. In reality, people vote on the way that they eat bacon sandwiches, most don't have a clue who their local MP or local candidate is. IMO, there should be another general election.
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If that happened with Corbyn still in charge there would be a massive Conservative majority.
 
milo said:
I think the noises were today the NEC would allow Corbyn onto the ballot without the nominations.

I suspect that the NEC's decision is a political rather than legal one. There is an issue with legitimacy if Corbyn isn't on the ballot, even if he is a lame duck leader and him getting re-elected would split the party.
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This list is slightly out of date (Eagle won't be on it anymore, Livingstone has been replaced by a guy called Darren Williams, a Corbyn supporter) http://www.labour.org.uk/pages/labours-national-executive-committee

When you look at it, you see a fair bit of support for Corbyn, he'll have a lot of people fighting his corner. It would be no surprise should the NEC (quite rightly imo) decide that Corbyn should be on the ballot.

There are also some NEC elections coming up for Labour Party members. Those who support Corbyn should know (and if they don't, there's very clear guidance on who supports Corbyn) who to vote for in these. Then I'd guess, at party conference, there will be some changes/clarification to the rules so this kind of sneaky bullsh1t won't come up again.
 
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