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Politics, politics, politics

milo said:
I think benefits for EU imigrants is a complete non-issue and is only on the table because the Tories have talked it up for several years when chasing cheap votes.

The vast majority of EU migrants come to the UK because it is relatively easy to get a job here, we are a largely tolerant and multi-cultural country with established communities from most countries and nearly everyone has English as a second language (or want to come here to learn it).

If it really is an issue (it isn't) then it can easily be sorted out domestically by limiting benefits until you have contributed x amount.
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It's not an issue in terms of cost, it's probably a tiny fraction of the amount we pay to lazy UK residents.

It's an important issue of principle though. The concept that one can just claim money from the pockets of residents in any European country one wishes is just ludicrous.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
His idea of sorting it will actually end up costing more, which is par for the course for most ideas put forward by most political parties.

I will vote to leave the EU, as I am an old fashioned sort who like democracy and dislikes the shambles that is Brussels, the idea that we could ever reform it is so far fetched I would not even bother to entertain the notion. The are to many people on the gravy train who would not allow it to be reformed.

That said though on some issues UKIP talk some sense they present themselves in such a pathetic manner that they will lose the argument. The was a guy at my local farmers market with all the UKIP stuff on standing up shouting something about WW2. Now while I agree with them on that the EU is not the trading block that we signed up to, his sort of talk is just making matters worse.

Politics is a load of old bolney really and though despite myself I still read it sometimes, I would not trust any of them as showed by the link I did earlier, even the left who are meant to be naive but trustworthy are lying pieces of brick same as Farage Mr I would never tax evade(he was just did not think people would find out) bunch of see you next tuesdays
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We'd still be bound by EU regulation if we left, we just wouldn't have a seat at the table when the rules are being made and would probably have worse terms than we have now.

I found this recent Brexit wargame interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...it-leaves-european-union-to-deter-other-exits
 
scaramanga said:
It's not an issue in terms of cost, it's probably a tiny fraction of the amount we pay to lazy UK residents.

It's an important issue of principle though. The concept that one can just claim money from the pockets of residents in any European country one wishes is just ludicrous.
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It has become an issue by years of politicians (on all sides) using it for dog whistle politics.

It is still an easy issue to support out domestically though, as long as everyone is treated the same, we have complete freedom to do what we want. There are concessions on sending benefits overseas and on claiming for people who are not resident in the country. These seem sensible and of benefit for all nations.
 
milo said:
It has become an issue by years of politicians (on all sides) using it for dog whistle politics.

It is still an easy issue to support out domestically though, as long as everyone is treated the same, we have complete freedom to do what we want. There are concessions on sending benefits overseas and on claiming for people who are not resident in the country. These seem sensible and of benefit for all nations.
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I absolutely agree that the sensible suggestion is to just block any benefit for those who haven't contributed.

Even better than that. Instead of giving houses to the workshy, we should give them a passport, a one way ticket to Spain and instructions on claiming Spanish benefits.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
That said though on some issues UKIP talk some sense they present themselves in such a pathetic manner that they will lose the argument. The was a guy at my local farmers market with all the UKIP stuff on standing up shouting something about WW2. Now while I agree with them on that the EU is not the trading block that we signed up to, his sort of talk is just making matters worse.
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I think there are quite a few people who would not vote UKIP, but would vote to leave the EU.

I'm still undecided, and if I remain undecided when the time comes, I will probably vote to stay in. The thing that makes me undecided is that there are qunts on both sides of the argument and also decent people on both sides of the argument too. I am hearing the pros and cons from all sides and I just can't come to a proper conclusion.

I think the only thing that concerns me about voting to stay in, is that the EU could then say "ok, that's your referendum, you're in for the next 50 years. So now we are going to do a bunch of stuff that the people of your country don't want to do, and there's nothing you can do about it."
 
scaramanga said:
I absolutely agree that the sensible suggestion is to just block any benefit for those who haven't contributed.

Even better than that. Instead of giving houses to the workshy, we should give them a passport, a one way ticket to Spain and instructions on claiming Spanish benefits.
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I certainly think that there is something to be said for tiered benefits based on how much you have contributed.
 
the dza said:
I think the only thing that concerns me about voting to stay in, is that the EU could then say "ok, that's your referendum, you're in for the next 50 years. So now we are going to do a bunch of stuff that the people of your country don't want to do, and there's nothing you can do about it."
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Whether we vote to leave or stay, we are still going to have to deal and negotiate with our European neighbours. The best way of getting the best deal for the UK is to look for common areas of interest and build alliances. Unfortunately, for too long we have stood on the sidelines and chucked rocks. If we drag Europe through these negotiations (when frankly there are more important issues facing the EU) and then vote to leave, we are going to find getting a deal that meets our needs post exit nigh on impossible.
 
My solution on benefits would have been that countries hosting migrants pay benefits only to the level available within that individuals country of origin, subject to a cap of the host countries own limits.
 
johnola said:
My solution on benefits would have been that countries hosting migrants pay benefits only to the level available within that individuals country of origin, subject to a cap of the host countries own limits.
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There is no way that the rest of the EU would agree to that because you are not treating all European nationals equally.
 
milo said:
We'd still be bound by EU regulation if we left, we just wouldn't have a seat at the table when the rules are being made and would probably have worse terms than we have now.

I found this recent Brexit wargame interesting

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...it-leaves-european-union-to-deter-other-exits
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Having close ties to Latvia I know that any gap in defence would be exploited by Russia, frankly Putin is just waiting for an excuse to get back in to Eastern Europe. But as for former ministers saying we should be punished if we do not go along with what the unelected top brass in Brussels want, then to be honest that just sounds like a form of terrorism to me and similar to the whole religious thing where by people believe in GHod because they are scared not to.

I thought we were going for a new type of politics where we did not scaremonger people but showed them positive ideas, those white middle aged guys sat round a table should not place threats at people but should offer a positive "spin" they just sounded like bullies to me, and bullies can go fcuk themselves for all I care.
 
milo said:
There is no way that the rest of the EU would agree to that because you are not treating all European nationals equally.
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I would like it if I could get my state pension at the same age as those in Greece and France, actually I would love it more if the lazy buggers got their state pensions at the same age we got ours.

The is to much money at stake for us to ever leave the EU anyway so it will not be allowed to happen, who would make up the shortfall if we left? the French ha, nope I doubt it. Also far to many people in Brussels and Strasbourg need our pennies to keep the gravy train going.
 
Danishfurniturelover said:
Having close ties to Latvia I know that any gap in defence would be exploited by Russia, frankly Putin is just waiting for an excuse to get back in to Eastern Europe. But as for former ministers saying we should be punished if we do not go along with what the unelected top brass in Brussels want, then to be honest that just sounds like a form of terrorism to me and similar to the whole religious thing where by people believe in GHod because they are scared not to.

I thought we were going for a new type of politics where we did not scaremonger people but showed them positive ideas, those white middle aged guys sat round a table should not place threats at people but should offer a positive "spin" they just sounded like bullies to me, and bullies can go fcuk themselves for all I care.
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Yeah. The Russian's are very hostile towards the Baltic states and would jump at any chance to re-exert their influence on Eastern Europe.

As to unelected top brass in Brussels. The EU is run by the Council of Ministers which is just the ministers from each member state. I doubt that there would be more appetite in the UK for moving power from them to the European Parliament. No one is saying that the EU is ideal, international politics is not easy, there are so many interests and perspectives that need to be accommodated. The fact is that if we leave the EU we will still have to negotiate with it but they will have less interest in accommodating our interests.
 
milo said:
The whole basis of negotiations has been on treating citizens of all member states equally. I think that breaking from this principle is not (and never will be) on the table.
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Obviously not possible given the non existent trivial new deal agreed by Cameron.

I am deeply worried what happens when we vote to remain part of it. We will be dismantled.
 
johnola said:
It will be interpreted as a green flag to deeper European integration. Regional political bodies having as much power or more than parliament etc etc.
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The concessions that we have got point to exactly the opposite of this happening. You also have to remember that there are a number of countries who are outside the Eurozone who support our position on this.
 
Except for the concessions we have been given amount to nothing and are not legally binding without 1) the agreement of other member states and 2) treaty change. Treaty change is not likely to be forthcoming in the next few years which means that Cameron after promising fundemental reform of our relationship with the EU has negotiated more or less the status quo and is attempting (and failing) to sell it as a great acheivement.

Its no wonder that he has now resorted to scaremongering as per his suggestion today that if we vote to leave then we will get calais style migrant camps in the UK because the French Goverment will for some reason tear up the Le Touquet agreement which is nothing to do with EU membership. Pure distraction so people don't focus on his non-deal.

I expect there will be one twist with the possible suggestion of associative membership of the EU (The British Model) being put forward which he could then try to sell as a new deal though this has been on the cards for a while and would make us 2nd class members of the EU which wants to progress towards full integration. http://www.brugesgroup.com/eurenegotiationbrief.pdf
 
The auditors haven't signed off the EU accounts for 18 straight years now, they just can't keep control of their own affairs. I think it's just got out of hand now in terms of structure and it's too big, bloated and difficult to make the changes required. Sometimes it's better to build from new.
 
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