Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Mikey10]

Not sure what your point is here. Your addressing a post to me

Oh what is the fudging point...you do you...I'm going elsewhere...just glad you have everything sussed, at least I know who to go to for conclusive and indisputable answers on the big stuff...

I wouldn’t be asking him advice on grammar though.

 

[Lost Mango]

Yes. But not any would throw away their passports.

genuine ignorance here - how many of the improper migrants (they aren't actually illegal) have passports or identification cards? Most of them are smuggled across all borders aren't they? Why do you say they throw them in the sea/away? has this been recorded as happening?

When I was working in Namibia, Zambia and Botswana many people didn't have birth certificates, know their own age, didn't drive or anything and didn't use or have passports to move between those 3 countries (this was twenty odd years ago so perhaps it has changed?). Not convinced that chaotic countries further north have a fully functioning or meaningful passport process for people who might want to flee for some reason.

 

[robp135]

Because publicly stating that it may be man made or originated in China would have achieved what exactly? Perhaps being a grown up means you have to play politically safe and base it on the actual provable evidence at the time, rather than gut feeling. Perhaps because he could predict what trump and his brickshow of an administration would have done if he didn't play a straight hand in public and how many more may have died rather than just the 1 million that Trump and Biden managed to bungle their way to.

His private thoughts are his private thoughts and not what is best practice in reality, and in fact all policy decisions were made by the administration rather than him.

I can totally understand taking the 5th to prevent that conflict between his personal thoughts and his professional conduct being decontextualised by Paul, Trump, the Brain Worm or Dr Oz, be it for a soundbite gotcha, a further criminal proceeding or just as political BS.

That’s not really how it works. He was in public office and he took an oath when he took that position. His diary was legally subpoenaed. He’s not legally able to plead the 5th as well due to his pardon for what it’s worth. And his reasoning was obviously due to that fact his legal team did not have enough time to review the diary and advise him.

If Covid originated from the Wuhan lab it was likely due to gain of function research which the governing body ran by Fauci supported. The US government provided funding to that lab, all be it a modest amount. But the total estimates of funding to labs where GOF was happening is significant.

Does that make him solely responsible for Covid? No. And if you need an anti Trump narrative here funding of GOF was paused under Obama and then reinstated under Trump. Fauci, as NIAID Director, was involved in that reinstatement though.

 

[Rorschach]

It was me and I have already stuck my hand up on that. I still think the sound bites are important as it what plays to the audience and in this post-news world that is probably more important than the 'truth'. But it was a quick comment in response to Rob's initial posy about pleading the 5th and reflective of what Fauci's team had been saying about Paul wanting a 'gotcha' from him.

Thinking more on it, this fits in with this Administration's modus operandi of debunking anything they don't like and this is much more about a further attack on science generally, further defunding of scientific institutions or having more Republican/MAGA control over the funding streams and about having a single name spacegoat to hang the blame on, especially someone who is obviously Deep State as he has worked in government for 40+ years.

What you are forgetting about is that Covid was a hoax. But also a terrible pandemic caused by Fauci. And that this hoax/not hoax prompted the creation of a demon's blood MNRA vaccine, which probably causes autism according to what's-his-face- worm-brain-guy. But it most certainly didn't save millions of lives, which were strangely saved, and although Trump took credit for Operation Warp Speed and gave Fauci a presidential commendation, he didn't believe that the vaccine for which he gave out awards was legit, but which he also took himself. And also bleach and ivermectin would have worked perfectly well on the not-actually-real pandemic. Everything is fine.

 

[robp135]

genuine ignorance here - how many of the improper migrants (they aren't actually illegal) have passports or identification cards? Most of them are smuggled across all borders aren't they? Why do you say they throw them in the sea/away? has this been recorded as happening?

When I was working in Namibia, Zambia and Botswana many people didn't have birth certificates, know their own age, didn't drive or anything and didn't use or have passports to move between those 3 countries (this was twenty odd years ago so perhaps it has changed?). Not convinced that chaotic countries further north have a fully functioning or meaningful passport process for people who might want to flee for some reason.

The traffickers apparently advise them to do so.

It’s impossible to know the percentages. I also question how the 40% reduction and 25% bring female and children figures are put together.

I don’t think anybody should be entering the country without us knowing who they are.

 

[robp135]

What you are forgetting about is that Covid was a hoax. But also a terrible pandemic caused by Fauci. And that this hoax/not hoax prompted the creation of a demon's blood MNRA vaccine, which probably causes autism according to what's-his-face- worm-brain-guy. But it most certainly didn't save millions of lives, which were strangely saved, and although Trump took credit for Operation Warp Speed and gave Fauci a presidential commendation, he didn't believe that the vaccine for which he gave out awards was legit, but which he also took himself. And also bleach and ivermectin would have worked perfectly well on the not-actually-real pandemic. Everything is fine.

Let’s be clear. Nobody has said this in recent days on this thread.

 

[Lost Mango]

The traffickers apparently advise them to do so.

It’s impossible to know the percentages. I also question how the 40% reduction and 25% bring female and children figures are put together.

I don’t think anybody should be entering the country without us knowing who they are.

Thanks.

 

[thfcsteff]

That’s not really how it works. He was in public office and he took an oath when he took that position. His diary was legally subpoenaed. He’s not legally able to plead the 5th as well due to his pardon for what it’s worth. And his reasoning was obviously due to that fact his legal team did not have enough time to review the diary and advise him.

If Covid originated from the Wuhan lab it was likely due to gain of function research which the governing body ran by Fauci supported. The US government provided funding to that lab, all be it a modest amount. But the total estimates of funding to labs where GOF was happening is significant.

Does that make him solely responsible for Covid? No. And if you need an anti Trump narrative here funding of GOF was paused under Obama and then reinstated under Trump. Fauci, as NIAID Director, was involved in that reinstatement though.

I think the whole debate around 'gain of function' is a massive discussion. The fors, againsts, and reality of why such tests even exist as a concept (let alone the dicey reality they are) is enormous. I would suggest that under this specific President, any 'officer of government' who does not go along with POTUS wishes finds themselves on a hiding to nothing/unemployment. I suppose you could argue that Fauci should've stepped down if he did not believe in said-funding/programs? I don't know if he took the view that such testing was tragically necessary to try and stay ahead of whatever the hell freelancers, etc had created over the decades. I think what is clear is that the scope of those involved is broad, that there are many. FWIW there are statements made in 2021 that the type of virus being researched in Wuhan was beyond manipulation of the sort which ended up in covid. Obviously (!!!!!) I have no clue whatsoever if this is true or not.

Overall, I think there will always be questions which we will never get answered.

 

[Lost Mango]

That’s not really how it works. He was in public office and he took an oath when he took that position. His diary was legally subpoenaed. He’s not legally able to plead the 5th as well due to his pardon for what it’s worth. And his reasoning was obviously due to that fact his legal team did not have enough time to review the diary and advise him.

If Covid originated from the Wuhan lab it was likely due to gain of function research which the governing body ran by Fauci supported. The US government provided funding to that lab, all be it a modest amount. But the total estimates of funding to labs where GOF was happening is significant.

Does that make him solely responsible for Covid? No. And if you need an anti Trump narrative here funding of GOF was paused under Obama and then reinstated under Trump. Fauci, as NIAID Director, was involved in that reinstatement though.

What was the oath?

 

[robp135]

Not got an issue with this, just curious. How comes @thfcsteff os able to delete and edit posts after they have been read as I am unable. Is it to do with number of posts?

 

[thfcsteff]

Not got an issue with this, just curious. How comes @thfcsteff os able to delete and edit posts after they have been read as I am unable. Is it to do with number of posts?

Is that true? Can you not edit your own posts or just delete them? I thought everyone could? In the past I have known people who delete several posts in a thread leaving only replies to what they'd written.

There has been some odd timing where sometimes I've deleted a post I've written to avoid further engagement, and then I check back in and see someone has read it and replied to it.

Just to be clear, when I go back in and edit a post it is to either clarify or add to a point of discussion OR to try and back out of a discussion altogether because, well, sometimes on reflection I fear there's no point...that, and occasionally I feel like a dingdong for being part of a thread which is getting rick-rolled by a tangent!

p.s. It's all good @robp135 you can have an issue with it if you do, no offense taken at all.

 

[robp135]

Is that true? Can you not edit your own posts or just delete them? I thought everyone could? In the past I have known people who delete several posts in a thread leaving only replies to what they'd written.

There has been some odd timing where sometimes I've deleted a post I've written to avoid further engagement, and then I check back in and see someone has read it and replied to it.

Just to be clear, when I go back in and edit a post it is to either clarify or add to a point of discussion OR to try and back out of a discussion altogether because, well, sometimes on reflection I fear there's no point...that, and occasionally I feel like a dingdong for being part of a thread which is getting rick-rolled by a tangent!

p.s. It's all good @robp135 you can have an issue with it if you do, no offense taken at all.

I don’t have an issue just curious why it happens. Example I can edit the or request to delete the post from 35 mins ago but not a few hours.

 

[robp135]

I think the whole debate around 'gain of function' is a massive discussion. The fors, againsts, and reality of why such tests even exist as a concept (let alone the dicey reality they are) is enormous. I would suggest that under this specific President, any 'officer of government' who does not go along with POTUS wishes finds themselves on a hiding to nothing/unemployment. I suppose you could argue that Fauci should've stepped down if he did not believe in said-funding/programs? I don't know if he took the view that such testing was tragically necessary to try and stay ahead of whatever the hell freelancers, etc had created over the decades. I think what is clear is that the scope of those involved is broad, that there are many. FWIW there are statements made in 2021 that the type of virus being researched in Wuhan was beyond manipulation of the sort which ended up in covid. Obviously (!!!!!) I have no clue whatsoever if this is true or not.

Overall, I think there will always be questions which we will never get answered.

January 20, 2020
“It now appears using epi data and genomic data that the first infection was in early December and was not connected to the market.”

“Now we know the market was not the source, it was the amplifier”




February 1, 2020
In a conference call with 12 leading virologists. Faucis diary notes that only 2 concluded it was natural and the rest felt that deliberate insertion was most probable.



Fauci then gets Kristian Anderson, one of the two that sided with his view to draft a paper on natural origin.

The craziest part about it. Anderson also beleived the lab leak had likely started in the lab and and stated that in the internal chat after the call.

https://biosafetynow.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Proximal_Origin_Slack_OCRd.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Kristian Andersen: "Question is – evolution or engineering. My problem is that both really rather plausible."

Kristian Andersen: "I think the main thing still in my mind is that the lab escape version of this is so friggin' likely to have happened because they were already doing this type of work and the molecular data is fully consistent with that scenario."


March 17, 2020
Kristian Andersons paper called Proximal Origin that was published on March 17 in multiple news outlets and scientific journals.

https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client_id=grover&redirect_uri=https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

That paper then becomes the basis through which Fauci declares to the public that independent scientific research has now backed up the claim that COVID-19 came from the wet market, not from the Wuhan lab.


Why is this important?

The laboratories running these GOF experiments still exist. They are in the US and they are performing even more dangerous research.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...fusal-testify-speaks-politicization-covid-19/

You think RFK Jr is a head case? He’s now in charge of running all the BSL-4 laboratories and determining where funding goes outside the US.

You think that Pete Hegseth is qualified to lead the US Military? He is now in charge of military anthrax and all the Bio Weapons the US has illegally developed via the same loopholes Fauci used to

The reality is we actually got lucky with Covid. It had a 1% fatality rate and mostly killed old people. Something like Spanish flu that kills healthy young adults and children would kill millions more than Covid.

You don't have to be a crazy right-winger see that public faith in the CDC, NIH and scientific establishment is in the toilet. The other half of the country don’t trust the President and his administration.

We are totally fudged if this happens again.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

That’s not really how it works. He was in public office and he took an oath when he took that position. His diary was legally subpoenaed. He’s not legally able to plead the 5th as well due to his pardon for what it’s worth. And his reasoning was obviously due to that fact his legal team did not have enough time to review the diary and advise him.

If Covid originated from the Wuhan lab it was likely due to gain of function research which the governing body ran by Fauci supported. The US government provided funding to that lab, all be it a modest amount. But the total estimates of funding to labs where GOF was happening is significant.

Does that make him solely responsible for Covid? No. And if you need an anti Trump narrative here funding of GOF was paused under Obama and then reinstated under Trump. Fauci, as NIAID Director, was involved in that reinstatement though.

Lets also be really fair, I suspect that the world over did not know for example if social distancing or lockdowns would be the correct path but did so because of what was happening in Italy and for what was largely an unknown. I imagine if you were to check the notes and transport back in time, the world over, you would have advisers saying to Governments behind closed doors or have it in their notes that they were unsure if the measure would be effective but taking a decision to mitigate the risk etc. As I say, I imagine alot of decisions were made because of the unknown, bar a handful of countries we all followed the same measures, and from memory the US was fairly late with it, so it wasn't like the were leading the "science" on it.

As for where it originated, as I say, does it matter when the president said he already knows where and how it started? Are we not to take his world for it? Or I ask again, was he lying at the time?

Its not an Anti Trump rhetoric, none of us can control what comes out his mouth, if you want to relive scary and fcuked up, get your chops round this https://apnews.com/article/virus-ou...emics-health-dbddbcf6cb4b17420e4a08820b73d4be

 

[thfcsteff]

January 20, 2020
“It now appears using epi data and genomic data that the first infection was in early December and was not connected to the market.”

“Now we know the market was not the source, it was the amplifier”

View attachment 23014


February 1, 2020
In a conference call with 12 leading virologists. Faucis diary notes that only 2 concluded it was natural and the rest felt that deliberate insertion was most probable.

View attachment 23015

Fauci then gets Kristian Anderson, one of the two that sided with his view to draft a paper on natural origin.

The craziest part about it. Anderson also beleived the lab leak had likely started in the lab and and stated that in the internal chat after the call.

https://biosafetynow.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/Proximal_Origin_Slack_OCRd.pdf?utm_source=chatgpt.com

Kristian Andersen: "Question is – evolution or engineering. My problem is that both really rather plausible."

Kristian Andersen: "I think the main thing still in my mind is that the lab escape version of this is so friggin' likely to have happened because they were already doing this type of work and the molecular data is fully consistent with that scenario."


March 17, 2020
Kristian Andersons paper called Proximal Origin that was published on March 17 in multiple news outlets and scientific journals.

https://idp.nature.com/authorize?response_type=cookie&client_id=grover&redirect_uri=https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0820-9

That paper then becomes the basis through which Fauci declares to the public that independent scientific research has now backed up the claim that COVID-19 came from the wet market, not from the Wuhan lab.


Why is this important?

The laboratories running these GOF experiments still exist. They are in the US and they are performing even more dangerous research.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opin...fusal-testify-speaks-politicization-covid-19/

You think RFK Jr is a head case? He’s now in charge of running all the BSL-4 laboratories and determining where funding goes outside the US.

Yes. Scary. As I understand it, the far grerater issue are the amount of BSL - 3 labs around the place (I read it was in the thousands).

You think that Pete Hegseth is qualified to lead the US Military? He is now in charge of military anthrax and all the Bio Weapons the US has illegally developed via the same loopholes Fauci used to

I am well aware. The thing I find disconcerting here is that there is clearly aim at only one person in this whole issue. It is a witch hunt from where I'm looking.

The reality is we actually got lucky with Covid. It had a 1% fatality rate and mostly killed old people. Something like Spanish flu that kills healthy young adults and children would kill millions more than Covid.

...as was said many times during the pandemic, and has been said since. Yes.

You don't have to be a crazy right-winger see that public faith in the CDC, NIH and scientific establishment is in the toilet.

No, correct. I see it. I think it's sad we have come to a time where the scientific community is held in such low regard by so many.

The other half of the country don’t trust the President and his administration.

That's right.

We are totally fudged if this happens again.

Sadly, if we continue to allow paranoia and mistrust of science to prevail over degrees of common sense, it will happen again and we will be fudged.

I think what's weirdest of all here is that it feels like people are alarmed at the thought of biological weapons, viruses being developed both for nefarious uses and also to try and find cures for them, and investment in things such as gain of function testing. This has all been happening for a long time. It isn't new. The threat has been exceptionally real for a long time. And leaks? Oh I believe they happen far more than we'll ever know, and further, I'm sure containment has become a massive skill-set.

I am not afraid of these things because they are way, way beyond my scope of control.
I have many assumptions of my own on these matters. I am personally unconvinced that covid 19 was not initially the result of a leak, I think that's very possible. Equally, with climate change altering the structure of living organisms (such as bacteria) in such ways that it is wholly plausible we're entering a time when a whole new level of transmissible diseases are coming our way, whether from viruses, vectors or whatever. We don't know, and my hunch is that even if someone does know, WE will never know. I chose to have covid vaccines. I also chose to distance at the start of it. I did not wear a mask other than when in a store or restaurant where people could sit outside. Because I was in a rural area I went for walks and was outside a fair amount. I did not wipe my grocery bags down and all that. I got covid once and it was a light case.

There are so many broken links in the chain at this point that I don't think we've ever been more vulnerable as a society. Agents of chaos are enjoying the conditions. I am grateful that the overall spirit of humankind still seems to be prevailing in the sense that nothing has happened on a scale yet.

Here's hoping that eventually we can all leave this sort of mess back in the pages of history as we get on with enjoying life.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

Whats happening to the Spanish territories in North Africa is obviously horrendous, but the scare tactics to suggest these are swimming 14km over to the mainland are fanciful

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Whats happening to the Spanish territories in North Africa is obviously horrendous, but the scare tactics to suggest these are swimming 14km over to the mainland are fanciful

I've been to Morocco a couple of times....I've never realised Spain had two territories on the mainland of Africa (and I'm usually pretty good with all things Geography).

2 questions

Why hasn't this been an issue before (migrants wanting to reach the EU via a seemingly simple route)?

And circling back to our own migrant issues...can someone not just 'swim round' to Gibraltar from the Spain side (yes, I had a look on Google maps).. would that constitute them arriving in the 'UK' ...or are immigration rules different when arriving on the Rock?.

 

[MartyFunkhouser]

I've been to Morocco a couple of times....I've never realised Spain had two territories on the mainland of Africa (and I'm usually pretty good with all things Geography).

2 questions

Why hasn't this been an issue before (migrants wanting to reach the EU via a seemingly simple route)?

And circling back to our own migrant issues...can someone not just 'swim round' to Gibraltar from the Spain side (yes, I had a look on Google maps).. would that constitute them arriving in the 'UK' ...or are immigration rules different when arriving on the Rock?.

Yep, if the intention was to swim to the mainland they could have done it from Morocco, in fact I would imagine they would have had more luck using aids like boats from there too.

 

[johnola]

I've been to Morocco a couple of times....I've never realised Spain had two territories on the mainland of Africa (and I'm usually pretty good with all things Geography).

2 questions

Why hasn't this been an issue before (migrants wanting to reach the EU via a seemingly simple route)?

And circling back to our own migrant issues...can someone not just 'swim round' to Gibraltar from the Spain side (yes, I had a look on Google maps).. would that constitute them arriving in the 'UK' ...or are immigration rules different when arriving on the Rock?.

Gibraltar is not part of the U.K.

 

[Gutter Boy]

I've been to Morocco a couple of times....I've never realised Spain had two territories on the mainland of Africa (and I'm usually pretty good with all things Geography).

2 questions

Why hasn't this been an issue before (migrants wanting to reach the EU via a seemingly simple route)?

And circling back to our own migrant issues...can someone not just 'swim round' to Gibraltar from the Spain side (yes, I had a look on Google maps).. would that constitute them arriving in the 'UK' ...or are immigration rules different when arriving on the Rock?.

I think the Spanish enclaves are pretty well barriered - big walls land-facing and fences that go out to sea. The issue this week has been force of numbers overwhelming those.

There's a Spurs connection btw - Nayim is from Ceuta, hence him being a North African who played for Spain