Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[spurspinter1]

UBI is currently a pipedream. And it's not something I'm closed to completely because part of me thinks that it is inevitable that at some future date most meaningful work is carried out by AI. However, pretty much all the UBI experiments that have been conducted recently across the globe have ended in failure and certainly I think UBI remains as a card we will need to pull in a future work-place society dominated by non-humans as opposed to something that can improve human life/living standards in the current world

That's odd as every study I have seen reference if seems to suggest that it works well - Some Scandi examples but I don't have them to hand. The general consensus was that it did not do away with the want to work, but that safety net does away with a lot of needless anxiety / potential stuff.

The idea often freaks people out and I do think part of it is a lack of willingness to do away with the forced rat race, especially if that person has done alright compared to most other folks.

The "Where will we find the money" ties in to the nonsense idea that we don't live in a plentiful planet. It's a pretty callous existence to say you don't deserve housing / healthcare / food / a balance between work and life if you weren't born into a position of privilege.

 

[Kompakted]

That's odd as every study I have seen reference if seems to suggest that it works well - Some Scandi examples but I don't have them to hand. The general consensus was that it did not do away with the want to work, but that safety net does away with a lot of needless anxiety / potential stuff.

The idea often freaks people out and I do think part of it is a lack of willingness to do away with the forced rat race, especially if that person has done alright compared to most other folks.

The "Where will we find the money" ties in to the nonsense idea that we don't live in a plentiful planet. It's a pretty callous existence to say you don't deserve housing / healthcare / food / a balance between work and life if you weren't born into a position of privilege.

The failure doesn't lie in any academic study finding, but in passing the real-world smell-test of "was it taken forward and implemented more broadly?"

The "where will we find the money?" question might seem like a nonsense question to you, but again, back in the real world it is the hard reality question that smashes whatever any academic study into the trials says to pieces.

If you think about the sort of money required to take away "needless anxiety", as you say and times that by circa 70 million (the population of the UK) and then give that to everyone every month, you're looking at something north of half of the UK's current GDP in terms of the actual benefit payout, without factoring in any administration costs.

That's why it's currently a pipedream.

However, we may well get to a stage where AI makes a reordering of the current global economic and monetary model necessary.

The other elephant in the room that is far less talked about than AI is the ability to isolate and eliminate the process of cellular degeneration that causes the aging process. I see this occurring within the next couple of hundred years, likely accelerated by AI use cases within science and medicine.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Fair enough. Buy nothing from Hungary either.

Will I have to take a packed lunch to the Ferencvaros away game?

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

That's odd as every study I have seen reference if seems to suggest that it works well - Some Scandi examples but I don't have them to hand. The general consensus was that it did not do away with the want to work, but that safety net does away with a lot of needless anxiety / potential stuff.

The idea often freaks people out and I do think part of it is a lack of willingness to do away with the forced rat race, especially if that person has done alright compared to most other folks.

The "Where will we find the money" ties in to the nonsense idea that we don't live in a plentiful planet. It's a pretty callous existence to say you don't deserve housing / healthcare / food / a balance between work and life if you weren't born into a position of privilege.

....and that's it's BIGGEST obstacle to it failing.... resentment. Humans do it soooo well.

 

[P.D.]

I'm not particularly surprised about that, as I imagine there are a few senior civil servants who would earn more than the PM. Appreciate she's now working for the Labour party but she was unlikely to take a significant drop in pay to do so.
There is a more general question of whether we pay roles such as PM enough.

I think the PM is underpaid for the job as are ministers as well. The point is increasing the special adviser salary bands and having Gray at a higher level than the PM isn't very smart politics when you're taking away things like the fuel allowance.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think the PM is underpaid for the job as are ministers as well. The point is increasing the special adviser salary bands and having Gray at a higher level than the PM isn't very smart politics when you're taking away things like the fuel allowance.

I'm sure that's true when people are insistent on conflating things in a world of comparisons.

Gray (whom I know nothing about) will be paid the going rate. Whether that is worth it will be decided on her output/performance. It's at that point people should critique.

As a point of order, the winter fuel payment isn't being taken away, it's being means tested, as pretty much everyone agrees it should be.

 

[Rorschach]

Will I have to take a packed lunch to the Ferencvaros away game?

No Hungary, go hungry.

 

[P.D.]

I'm sure that's true when people are insistent on conflating things in a world of comparisons.

Gray (whom I know nothing about) will be paid the going rate. Whether that is worth it will be decided on her output/performance. It's at that point people should critique.

As a point of order, the winter fuel payment isn't being taken away, it's being means tested, as pretty much everyone agrees it should be.

She's obviously not doing a great job if people are briefing against her and the donations stuff is lingering on. Not sure if she's underpaid, probably compared to the private sector yes but 170k plus pension and allowances isn't chump change.

 

[Mikey10]

As a point of order, the winter fuel payment isn't being taken away, it's being means tested, as pretty much everyone agrees it should be.

Aside, obviously, from The Daily Mail, The Telegraph and The Daily Express.

 

[Rorschach]

The failure doesn't lie in any academic study finding, but in passing the real-world smell-test of "was it taken forward and implemented more broadly?"

The "where will we find the money?" question might seem like a nonsense question to you, but again, back in the real world it is the hard reality question that smashes whatever any academic study into the trials says to pieces.

If you think about the sort of money required to take away "needless anxiety", as you say and times that by circa 70 million (the population of the UK) and then give that to everyone every month, you're looking at something north of half of the UK's current GDP in terms of the actual benefit payout, without factoring in any administration costs.

That's why it's currently a pipedream.

However, we may well get to a stage where AI makes a reordering of the current global economic and monetary model necessary.

The other elephant in the room that is far less talked about than AI is the ability to isolate and eliminate the process of cellular degeneration that causes the aging process. I see this occurring within the next couple of hundred years, likely accelerated by AI use cases within science and medicine.

These predictions around AI are but a pipedream too. The natural world is collapsing around us at a rate that will halt technological progress on this front well before the scenario you describe. That is the real elephant in the room. The fact they are starting to eat the elephants is the more immediate concern. What's left of civilisation will have different priorities.

Incidentally UBI financing is doable in rich economies because of the net benefits that accrue as a result. Bregman, of Davos fame, writes well on this topic. The numbers around this do stack up. For example in the US poverty could be eradicated with less than one quarter of the defence budget. Now i can't see this happening mainly because the 1% like the current setup just fine, and for the aforementioned reasons, but money is not the main impediment.