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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

Hmm, just United States of Europe would suffice

:p

Apologies, its a little difficult for me to keep up at times.

I thought one of the reasons we were leaving was to take back control of our parliament and be sovereign yet now I'm being told our MPs are enemies of the people and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, elected with 92,153 votes, is democracy personified, champion of the common man. What a way to reclaim our democracy, with one of our most entitled citizens, elected with a 0.2% mandate.

The funny thing is, that after we crash out in a no deal, the actual United States and Trump are 100% going to be bending us over and giving us a good rogering up the ass.

But that will be better I think as at least they don't have funny surnames and cos we'll have chosen it.. Or something like that anyway :)
 
Apologies, its a little difficult for me to keep up at times.

I thought one of the reasons we were leaving was to take back control of our parliament and be sovereign yet now I'm being told our MPs are enemies of the people and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, elected with 92,153 votes, is democracy personified, champion of the common man. What a way to reclaim our democracy, with one of our most entitled citizens, elected with a 0.2% mandate.

The funny thing is, that after we crash out in a no deal, the actual United States and Trump are 400% going to be bending us over and giving us a good rogering up the ass.

But that will be better I think as at least they don't have funny surnames and cos we'll have chosen it.. Or something like that anyway :)

I think once we leave the EU and enact the referendum vote i think then proper introspection of our politics, economic policies etc can begin in earnest...
 

As outlined there will always be exceptions. Doesn't stop the fact that we don't want it - so it wont happen. Seriously, is this - an EU army that won't happen - what you fear?
 
That's not true though, is it. If the EU was just the European Council, that would be the case, and that would be great.

However the Commission and Parliament are the apparatus of not just a nation state, but of an empire. Like what the fudge was the Green Goblin doing at the G7, watching over Merkel and Macron?

EU taxation already exists - the fact we have to have a tampon tax, and can't have more than two different rates of VAT (so can't use it for state intervention, e.g. on green issues), are EU taxes.

You're the type of person Glorygloryeze has been listening to! There is no single monarch at the head of this 'empire' but a collection of member nations. The EUs heart is a customs union - you could call it a trade empire - but even that would be a tad silly.

All UK taxes go to the UK government. As you know. But don't stop peddling the myths ;)
 
I always try to listen to alternative points of view of mine. As long as they are not inciting violence or doing sick stuff to children I'm fairly open minded like that.

I do feel like a lot of blame needs to be laid at the feet of those that lost the referendum.

Do you think when Johnson gets defeated in the house people are just going to forget all this and give up?

I think it is going to get worse and worse and more extreme.

Honest question, do you think it could be possible that Brexit hasn't worked because it wasn't viable?

Obviously it would be convenient to dump the failiur of brexit at the door of someone (else). Like May's government. Or maybe remainer MPs who undermined the great Brexit that never was. But sometimes you have to take respsonsibility for things, and just say actually it was a pile of shyte from the get go.

I like those who believe in Brexit. i like their aims, their national pride, their belief in the UK, their independence and general sensibilities. Generally pretty honest, innocent, aspirational people. They deserve better than this, which won't deliver those aspirations. In fact where are the aspirations for the better brexit future? Where is the great Brexit plan from the ERG, Farrage etc? 4 years in there isn't one. Bar a few Torys who think we can deregulate to sell more outside the EU - which is also a delusion - there is nothing. That I am afraid is the truth. Like it or not.
 
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I think once we leave the EU and enact the referendum vote i think then proper introspection of our politics, economic policies etc can begin in earnest...

I've seen this view quite a few times and I hope it is true but I have seen literally nothing to suggest that the British public won't continue to do what we've done so well for the past few decades; blame most of our problems on others (EU, immigrants whatever), rather than look really at the power structures in this country.

What indication has there been that this society is on the verge of looking at how our parliament works (the last attempt was crushed in a poorly thought out and attended referendum)? Our house of lords? Our executive branch? Our education and health policies? The absolutely crippling austerity the Tories have enacted without much challenge over the past decade? Or the fact that the English seemingly couldn't care less about the other 3 countries in the union as long as they get their Brexit? The fact that the top jobs in this country are dominated by people (on all sides of the political spectrum) who went to the same 4-5 private schools, often did the same 3-4 courses at the same 2-3 universities and then somehow manage to convince the common man and woman that they stand for them?

I'm struggling to see this ray of hope and light in what has been, from my perspective anyway, an absolutely brutal and depressing decade politically, socially and economically in this country. For me Brexit is just the massive elephant turd on what was already a pretty humungous cow turd.
 
You're the type of person Glorygloryeze has been listening to! There is no single monarch at the head of this 'empire' but a collection of member nations. The EUs heart is a customs union - you could call it a trade empire - but even that would be a tad silly.

All UK taxes go to the UK government. As you know. But don't stop peddling the myths ;)

galactic-senate-8-retina_53d70100.jpeg


How I think some people genuinely see the European parliament/commission. :D
 
How I think some people genuinely see the European parliament/commission. :D

While you are right. I don't blame them. The EU has been 'the other' that our newspapers have had a lot of fun with. Genuine EU government business is dull. A new trade agreement - zzzz. A new law stopping factories poluting rivers - whatever, not gonna make it in the sun or even the broadsheets. Legal details and nonsense on food additives - important but hardly that interesting. The only way to report on the EU to make it fun is to make the narrative about Jonny forigner, or the empire, telling us what to do - that is interesting.

The mis-perception of what the EU is has been left to fester. It wasn't really addressed during the vote. And now people are entrenched. Since we're here:

  • The EU government is the size of Biringham council. It attracts some of the most intelligent people from all over the EU, plenty from the UK. And it works in English!
  • Where it works well is on things that single nations could not oversee themselves. Like air pollution for example. Or free trade.
  • The heart of the EU is a customs union. The most affluent market on the planet, where anyone can trade freely.
  • The nations represented in the EU are culturally the most advanced - with exceptional and deep histories. Many did used to be empires. But now they are the most accepting and tolerant nations in the world.
Peronally I am happy for our nation to work with our neighbours becuase we have control of the UK. OUR parliment is fully in control of the UK. Sure scara might have to make sure he doesn't use a certain glue which has health effects on workers, and he might have to pay them the minium wage. We might have laws imposed on us on pollution. But is it really that bad? Is it worse than losing all the weath that comes from free trade?

I don't think so. And I don't think the shining light at the end of Brexit is there. If it were people could outline it. That they can not should tell you all you need to know!
 
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As outlined there will always be exceptions. Doesn't stop the fact that we don't want it - so it wont happen. Seriously, is this - an EU army that won't happen - what you fear?

Ok we are making progress. So you admit there ARE plans afoot for an EU army and it's not just conspiracy theory or "being lied to":)

You also agree that it is something that shouldn't happen. You then have to ask, why despite all the logic etc, that the "esteemed" leaders of the EU keep pushing for it and now have the framework for it? Maybe they are demented and it's best for us to be outside their influence?

I mean after all even Juncker says himself that "the UK does not need the EU"...
 
I've seen this view quite a few times and I hope it is true but I have seen literally nothing to suggest that the British public won't continue to do what we've done so well for the past few decades; blame most of our problems on others (EU, immigrants whatever), rather than look really at the power structures in this country.

What indication has there been that this society is on the verge of looking at how our parliament works (the last attempt was crushed in a poorly thought out and attended referendum)? Our house of lords? Our executive branch? Our education and health policies? The absolutely crippling austerity the Tories have enacted without much challenge over the past decade? Or the fact that the English seemingly couldn't care less about the other 3 countries in the union as long as they get their Brexit? The fact that the top jobs in this country are dominated by people (on all sides of the political spectrum) who went to the same 4-5 private schools, often did the same 3-4 courses at the same 2-3 universities and then somehow manage to convince the common man and woman that they stand for them?

I'm struggling to see this ray of hope and light in what has been, from my perspective anyway, an absolutely brutal and depressing decade politically, socially and economically in this country. For me Brexit is just the massive elephant turd on what was already a pretty humungous cow turd.

Some fair points re our political issues, but these will be even harder to solve if we remain in the European Union, which is not hiding the fact that it wants the component countries to be consumed into one single superstate - you just have to see what Ursula Van der Layen has said about the plans since being elected. How does the electorate solve those issues when they'll be even further away from the decision-making and democratic processes? And take a look at the backgrounds of those who are the movers and shakers in the EU and i'll bet they also went to the same few education institutions...

We have issues here in this country no doubt, but saying we can address by staying in the EU is wrong imo. At the very least if/when we exit the EU our politicians will no longer be able to delegate blame for actions/inactions on "EU buereucracy" etc and will have to take more responsibility We can only hope that the electorate/populace hold them to more account
 
Yep, usually I'm like that as well. People who know me well say it is almost impossible to upset me and I think that is justified.

But I look at what this country has voted for and what it has become in the last 3 years and I am genuinely disgusted. Some of the discussions I've had with patients, colleagues and friends have left me baffled and at times a bit appalled to be honest.

There is an unbelievable amount of hypocrisy going on here. An unelected PM, selected by a tiny percentage of the country's population, proroguing parliament, a tactic widely denounced literally weeks ago by almost all Tories, after a rallying cry of the referendum being 'taking back control and making laws in our parliament etc'....would just crack me up if the whole thing wasn't directly affecting the country I live in.

I've seen this line of argument before (including from you when I shared the story of the racism at work) and I let it slide then but its fair to say I completely and utterly disagree. I think it is a major cop out and a failure to acknowledge an aspect of the leave campaign (an aspect, not the entire thing) that has been there from the very beginning. From the Farage posters of refugee waves to the UK, to Boris' lies about Turkey and the EU, there has been an element of that for some in the campaign from the beginning. And from the beginning, some have been treating the referendum as a winner takes all campaign, rather than acknowledging that it was a razor thin victory, in a highly emotive issue and that perhaps a less aggressive approach may have been better.

The funny thing is, despite being a strong remainer, a generally big fan of the EU and as someone who, if I'm honest, feels more in common with a lot of mainland Europeans than most of the Brits I've met who voted leave (and this is certainly even more true for my kids), I've maintained from the beginning that there was no point overturning the referendum result or trying to. Not because I think Brexit will be good for the country (unsurprisingly, I don't) but because I agree that it wouldn't be good for our democracy (kind of like an unelected PM making drastic parliamentary decisions but ah well). That doesn't mean that I think it should be remain or no deal. I think that is a fool's errand and I fear that the people who will most suffer from this are the ones who have the least ability to cope.

Quick side point, I don't know why people get offended when they say some people on the leave side were misled. Of course they fudging were. Even bloody Farage was talking about how we'd come away with a great deal. No deal was not on anyone's minds or lips when the campaign was being fought. In hindsight, it was an absolute masterclass. What was mostly promised was an absolute utopia, where we'd keep all the positives of being in the EU, none of the negatives and we'd walk away with a great deal. As time has gone on, this whole process has been hijacked by the Tory far right who I'm sure will do very well in a no deal Brexit.

It is exhausting and I genuinely feel neither welcome in this country anymore nor am I particularly sure I want to be here with my family. And not because of any overblown fear about violence or being thrown out. I know neither will happen. Because I know that once I leave my little bubble in London, I'm surrounded by people who hold diametrically opposite views and views which I consider to be damaging to this country.

C'est la vie I guess.

Well all countries as far as I can tell have issues. The far right rising in Germany. The French and their intolerance of Muslims.

I'm sorry you don't like the people outside London.

I put the blame at the floor of the liberal elite who in their own words wanted to increase immigration to rub the rights nose in it, one of Blair's aides even admitted to this. Not that immigration is the major reason for living the EU.

As for politicians lying. If every government was brought down by not implementing their campaign promises no government would last a month.

As for Boris if we have left before the general election then I won't vote for him. But a progressive liberal party. But the is a precedent because Brown was PM he signed us up to the Lisbon treaty despite not being elected. Clearly the referendum result proved people did not want the Lisbon treaty and ever closer union.

The Tories won the last election promising to leave the EU. Is what were going to do if the traitor politicians who are not prepared to do what the people voted for.

Frankly it is time to get rid of all the ones that vote against leaving the EU. They have shown themselves to be unable to their jobs.
 
Ok we are making progress. So you admit there ARE plans afoot for an EU army and it's not just conspiracy theory or "being lied to":)

You also agree that it is something that shouldn't happen. You then have to ask, why despite all the logic etc, that the "esteemed" leaders of the EU keep pushing for it and now have the framework for it? Maybe they are demented and it's best for us to be outside their influence?

I mean after all even Juncker says himself that "the UK does not need the EU"...

No. There are not plans for an EU army. There is a cooperation agreement - which the UK is not even a part of! And the common security and defence policy, which the UK started with France and is run from the UK. It does monitoring and things like post conflict managment.

--- that is all there is in terms of EU defence, nothing more ----
Who is correct? This article or your sources? It can only be one. What are the untruths in this: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jan/25/brexiters-european-army-myths-franco-german
 
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Some fair points re our political issues, but these will be even harder to solve if we remain in the European Union, which is not hiding the fact that it wants the component countries to be consumed into one single superstate - you just have to see what Ursula Van der Layen has said about the plans since being elected. How does the electorate solve those issues when they'll be even further away from the decision-making and democratic processes? And take a look at the backgrounds of those who are the movers and shakers in the EU and i'll bet they also went to the same few education institutions...

It is clear your dislike of the EU, is really fear of it.

Just because federalists exist, it does not follow that federalism will. It would be like saying there are neo-nazis in Europe, so there will be nazi rule. Look here are the nazi quotes to prove it will happen. There is no need to worry becuase neither will happen.

The EU is run by the member states. They get to veto and choose what they want. Our elected government gets to choose.

We have issues here in this country no doubt, but saying we can address by staying in the EU is wrong imo. At the very least if/when we exit the EU our politicians will no longer be able to delegate blame for actions/inactions on "EU buereucracy" etc and will have to take more responsibility We can only hope that the electorate/populace hold them to more account

You've missed the point. It is not that we will fix the UK via europe. It is that the UK controls the UK. If there is someting to sort out - lets do it. Wating for Brexit is a myth. It is not going to solve anything in and of itself. It may make things worse as we lose trade and our currency is worth less. The point is, the UK is sovereign now on most things that matter to you. If it aint, please name an EU law that you don't like that affects you negatively.

What is it that will occur when Breixit happens that will make UK politics suddenly be better? How will it work?
 
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Some fair points re our political issues, but these will be even harder to solve if we remain in the European Union, which is not hiding the fact that it wants the component countries to be consumed into one single superstate - you just have to see what Ursula Van der Layen has said about the plans since being elected. How does the electorate solve those issues when they'll be even further away from the decision-making and democratic processes? And take a look at the backgrounds of those who are the movers and shakers in the EU and i'll bet they also went to the same few education institutions...

We have issues here in this country no doubt, but saying we can address by staying in the EU is wrong imo. At the very least if/when we exit the EU our politicians will no longer be able to delegate blame for actions/inactions on "EU buereucracy" etc and will have to take more responsibility We can only hope that the electorate/populace hold them to more account

Why exactly will they be harder to solve? This is what I'm struggling to understand.

We have a first past the post system. France have a presidential system (one in which last elections people completely rejected the status quo and also swept his very new party into power in the parliament). Germany have a PR system, with a culture of coalitions and compromise. Belgium have an absolute joke of a system where their country basically seems to have no functioning government whatsoever. Etc etc.

We had a chance to change the system in 2011. The Lib Dems first of all went for a compromise on a system that was pretty crappy anyway and then somehow didn't get the Tories to stay neutral on the matter. And the people voted against AV, with a 42% turnout. Where was the EU in all of this? Did they tell us to stay FPTP? That AV was brick? That we couldn't have a referendum? That we needed to go to PR? Nope, the EU didn't get involved at all because it is absolutely none of their business.

What has von der Layden said?

Also I know you're being flippant but you must know that this comment is just untrue? At the very least by dint of the fact that they come from a pool of dozens of countries with about 500 million people, as opposed to 1 (4) countries with 65 million? I've just done the most cursory of searches for the last 5 European Commission presidents (excluding the interim one) and they come from 4 different countries and studied at 5 different universities across 5 different countries. Though unsusprisingly most have done law or economics. Contrast to this: https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/feb/23/ppe-oxford-university-degree-that-rules-britain

Nobody is forcing our people to continue to vote or continue to elevate people who did PPE at Oxford or to lick the boots of those who went to Eton/Harrow/Winchester and yet we continue to.

I'm 100% sure that our politicians will continue to blame the EU afterwards. If we leave on a no deal and our economy responds accordingly, I reckon that will be a good few decades worth

Out of interest, what changes do you think you want to make to British society and the way we're run that you feel we can't make currently because of the EU?
 
Is that a picture of GHod on his throne, seeing as remainers see the EU as the all-seeing-all-knowing?:p

Thing is, I don't think I've met any remainers who think that. I'm sure they exist but I personally have never met them. All of them, including me, can see faults within the EU. And to some extent, we've always been the bad sibling in this relationship, never really wanting to be in the family anyway, never seeing themselves as part of the family (I've always found it funny how often people say they're going to Europe, as if we're not already physically in Europe).

A lot of remainers don't mind that we didn't take on the Euro, don't necessarily want closer integration, would balk at the suggestion of a USE or a European army whereas I've met more than a few people from the mainland who are very happy with the Euro, feel close to their 'European brothers' and see a USE and army as the best balwark for Europe to counter the USA/China/Russia/ potentially India in the future. It will certainly be interesting to see how we approach these things in the future if we do crash out in a no deal, Boris refuses to pay any money and we sour our relationship with a bloc of countries we should still consider our closest allies.

I've certainly met lots of people who voted leave who think the EU are at the root of so many of our problems though and an evil empire gradually taking over every aspect of our lives. My recent favourite was Gutterboy blaming the EU (iirc) for how many homegrown players we had to register for the CL and opining that now we were tipping the scales of UEFA 28 vs 27 non EU vs EU, we'd be teaming up with other FAs to get the law changed for a policy that affects pretty much nobody but us. It was an incredible reach but one that made me chuckle.
 
Well all countries as far as I can tell have issues. The far right rising in Germany. The French and their intolerance of Muslims.

I'm sorry you don't like the people outside London.

I put the blame at the floor of the liberal elite who in their own words wanted to increase immigration to rub the rights nose in it, one of Blair's aides even admitted to this. Not that immigration is the major reason for living the EU.

As for politicians lying. If every government was bought down by not implementing their campaign promises no government would last a month.

As for Boris if we have left before the general election then I won't vote for him. But a progressive liberal party. But the is a precedent because Brown was PM he signed us up to the Lisbon treaty despite not being elected. Clearly the referendum result proved people did not want the Lisbon treaty and ever closer union.

The Tories won the last election promising to leave the EU. Is what were going to do if the traitor politicians who are not prepared to do what the people voted for.

Frankly it is time to get rid of all the ones that vote against leaving the EU. They have shown themselves to be unable to their jobs.

They do for sure. My wife and I have discussed other countries. The USA for instance (while my salary and quality of life there would be insane) is a country that seems to be broken on even more levels than the UK. Its basically the UK on steroids and with some of the common sense we still have removed.

It isn't that I dislike people outside of London. I've always loved this country and every bit of it. Unfortunately though when I leave London now, I find myself in areas where I feel no longer welcome. The incident I mentioned in the transfer thread with that patient was not a unique one unfortunately (though funnily enough that was at St Thomas' Hospital).

I think the reality that most people in this country don't want to hear is that we need immigration and lots of it to pay for the increasingly ageing, unwell population, who are living for longer than ever, with many more medical conditions and in a society where it is more and more difficult to look after these relatives at home.

Though I agree (and have agreed from the beginning) that I can see why people voted Brexit and why people had issues with immigration in this country. I've always had sympathy with peoples' grievances on it. Just no longer much sympathy about the impact its going to have on the country or the impact it will have on many of the people who voted for it.

True. However, generally when our politicians lie, we vote them out 5 years later. Or at least theoretically have the chance to. Apparently though, another referendum based on any deal we may or may not agree on is an unbelievably undemocractic exercise.

I am incredibly uncomfortable with rhetoric which couches politicians as traitors for doing what they believe is right for their country, which ultimately is what I expect our elected politicians to be doing. If we're talking traitorous politicians, let's talk about Farage making sure his children have German passports and ensuring they have access to something he has helped take away from many of our own children. Or Rees Mogg, who's investment firm moved to Dublin and warned of the dangers of Brexit, especially hard, while he himself pushed for hard Brexit? Or Johnson, who penned articles in support of both leave and remain and then chose the option that was best for his career?

52% voted to leave the EU. 52%. That isn't some crushing victory, it is a razor thing margin, one that Farage desperately said should be revoted on just before the referendum when he thought leave would lose by a similar margin. To call 48% of the country traitors or the MPs that represent them or the MPs that represent leave constituencies and still are doing what they think is best for the country (even if that is wrong) is baffling in my opinion. 52% of the country voted to leave. I respect that and have said from the beginning that we should. What I don't respect are calls that we should leave under any circumstance (this was never campaigned on) or that the views of the 48% should be silenced.
 
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