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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

I'm saying many a Europhile said there was "no chance that the EU is planning to create a centralized EU army" and "its plain conspiracy theory to think so" have been shown to have had their heads in the sands - or did know and were plain lying

You almost want an EU army so you can say ha-ha I told you so! But it doesn't exist. Only a structure for cooperating (Pesco is actually something we opted out from so we're not even part of this collaboration).

Individual european natations don't have the size of Russia, China, the US. And why spend billions preparing to defend against Russia when Europe can have each others back? That's billions more for education and the NHS. So cooperation makes perfect sense. That is a far cry from an EU Army which does not exist.

You'll need something else to hate on/ be fearful of.
 
This is so crucial. As far as i'm concerned those who want to "take no deal off the table" are not interested in ANY deal and only want the UK to remain by any means necessary. It should be clear even to the remainers who accept the referendum result but want the best negotiating position for the country going forwards that removing the option for no deal weakens those negotiations.

If we come out then when can have a proper Corbyn or Corbyn type leader. Whenever the Tories veer to the right they are unelectable. They are doing well in the polls because people don't want the EU.

Hold firm, the will be a brighter future for all of us.

You could also add that many of the politicians in the EU have talked about sourcing tax directly. That is the future for the EU.
 
For the record not only is Dubai a thug saying he wants to knock some fudging sense into leavers.

He is also a chicken sh*t pussy who has declined all offers of a meet up when he is in London next.

Typical thug bully behaviour, when there called out on it they run.

Others in this thread have wildly different views to me on the EU. But I will respect and defend to the death your right to have those views.

Should the be another referendum and remain win. I would not deny the result. I would continue to support the enlightenment campaigns and continue to believe in leave as I have done since Jimmy Goldsmith started up back in the 90s.

Anyone wants to knock some fudging sense into me. PM and we can meet up.
 
Sounds like you have some unity with political forces in Germany. And share some of their concerns. The point was, the UK can work with other nations who also have concerns regarding migration.

As for being lied to, where did you get the notion that we'll likley see a united states of europe from? Those who have suggested this are the ones doing the lying, and I'd quetion anything else they put forward as scaremongering.

As you have unity with Merkel, Macron, Verhofstadt and Jo Swinson.o_O..

How can Britain work with other nations that are concerned with uncontrolled migration? Anyone showing concern is branded racist, fascist... Hungarian fascist regime, Poland far-right etc... You're a Remainer and you're trying to come across as if we're dealing with fair people on your side of the argument but, you're not fooling anyone ... The Zeitgeist is that if you're for open borders and for FOM, then you're human, if you're in opposition then you're Hitler.

With regards to the drive for a United States of Europe ... I suggest you try watching some debates in the EU parliament on youtube and listen to some of the speeches made by Greens, Socialists, Liberals, Center Right Cucks, all pouring scorn on national diversity and being roundly applauded for it...Where's all that Soros money going I wonder..
 
As you have unity with Merkel, Macron, Verhofstadt and Jo Swinson.o_O..

How can Britain work with other nations that are concerned with uncontrolled migration? Anyone showing concern is branded racist, fascist... Hungarian fascist regime, Poland far-right etc... You're a Remainer and you're trying to come across as if we're dealing with fair people on your side of the argument but, you're not fooling anyone ... The Zeitgeist is that if you're for open borders and for FOM, then you're human, if you're in opposition then you're Hitler.

With regards to the drive for a United States of Europe ... I suggest you try watching some debates in the EU parliament on youtube and listen to some of the speeches made by Greens, Socialists, Liberals, Center Right Cucks, all pouring scorn on national diversity and being roundly applauded for it...Where's all that Soros money going I wonder..

Lets recap. I said there are plenty of movements in the EU who agree with your outlook and free movement of illegal immigrants is a big problem in Europe, one which many nations would love to address. THere is potential to work with them to address it.

The theme here is a feeling like the EU controls us. When actually member states control the EU. There woud never be an EU army because members wouldn't want Brussels telling them where to send forces. Any suggestion would be vetoed. @Danishfurniturelover same applies to EU taxation. We don't want it. They don't want it.

Do you think people in european countries are that different to us? Have partiularly different concerns? We share a lot in common. The EU is just a facility to trade and work with allies.

People talk about all sorts of things. The Eu parliment has greens, neo-nazis, liberals etc etc. But a united states of europe is an impossibility. Other nations don't want it. We don't want it. It could never be imposed - veto. Logistically it would also be impossible with historically entrenched cultures, languages etc etc. Honestly, if you really are scared of this happening, you have been sold down the river somewhere. Those that preach lies should not be trusted.
 
You almost want an EU army so you can say ha-ha I told you so! But it doesn't exist. Only a structure for cooperating (Pesco is actually something we opted out from so we're not even part of this collaboration).

Individual european natations don't have the size of Russia, China, the US. And why spend billions preparing to defend against Russia when Europe can have each others back? That's billions more for education and the NHS. So cooperation makes perfect sense. That is a far cry from an EU Army which does not exist.

You'll need something else to hate on/ be fearful of.

Lolz. I don't want an EU army, but crucially the leaders and movers of the EU do.
As usual you say there is no army, but then say "its best that Europe can have each others backs, so what's the harm":D
Why don't you simply be honest to yourself and say that "an EU army is a good thing and it's great that such pooling of resources could save money elsewhere" instead of attacking my post when i say it's happening? Having each others backs is the same as having an EU army, you can play with words all you like.

Oh, and i don't need anything to hate on re EU thanks; the whole project itself is enough:D
 
Lolz. I don't want an EU army, but crucially the leaders and movers of the EU do.
As usual you say there is no army, but then say "its best that Europe can have each others backs, so what's the harm":D
Why don't you simply be honest to yourself and say that "an EU army is a good thing and it's great that such pooling of resources could save money elsewhere" instead of attacking my post when i say it's happening? Having each others backs is the same as having an EU army, you can play with words all you like.

Oh, and i don't need anything to hate on re EU thanks; the whole project itself is enough:D

If you wish to believe there is some kind of army - that no one can see and doesn't exist - that is your prerogative. You quoted the Permanent Structured Cooperation (Pesco) as a sign of an EU army. The UK, Malta and one other decided not to opt into pesco. And all it is is to cooperate. Not an army. So no there is no EU army. There won't be one. And you have been duped. By whom I don't konw. That you choose to believe it...well that is up to you.
 
If you wish to believe there is some kind of army - that no one can see and doesn't exist - that is your prerogative. You quoted the Permanent Structured Cooperation (Pesco) as a sign of an EU army. The UK, Malta and one other decided not to opt into pesco. And all it is is to cooperate. Not an army. So no there is no EU army. There won't be one. And you have been duped. By whom I don't konw. That you choose to believe it...well that is up to you.

Stop being so ignorant; PESCO is the stepping stone to the EU army. It has already led to the EU Defence Union. Even Juncker couldn't contain his excitement FFS - and he's been calling for an EU army for years!
It sounds not like i'm being duped but YOU putting your head in the sands. Even ardent remainers i know don't argue with me on this lol
 
Stop being so ignorant; PESCO is the stepping stone to the EU army. It has already led to the EU Defence Union. Even Juncker couldn't contain his excitement FFS - and he's been calling for an EU army for years!
It sounds not like i'm being duped but YOU putting your head in the sands. Even ardent remainers i know don't argue with me on this lol

It's all a bit 'the end of the world is nigh'. Remember those nutters that used to wear boards outide Oxford Circus?

There is one thing you need to accept, but will find it hard to. That is european member states agree with you. As do I. An EU army is not something anyone wants. Sure you can find the odd person who does, but whats new there? There will always be exceptions that prove the rule. The UK (like other nations in Europe) would not countenance Brussels sending off our troupes!! Why the fuk would they? Do you think British people would want that!?! What a nonsense.

Therefore PESCO - which the UK is not even in!! - is not a stepping stone, it is what it says on the tin, and you are a tiny bit deluded (or you've been listening to freaks that are).
 
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I'm genuinely beyond disgusted at what this country has become and am genuinely finding it difficult at times to engage with certain people knowing their views on things.

I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality.

I always try to listen to alternative points of view of mine. As long as they are not inciting violence or doing sick stuff to children I'm fairly open minded like that.

I do feel like a lot of blame needs to be laid at the feet of those that lost the referendum.

Do you think when Johnson gets defeated in the house people are just going to forget all this and give up?

I think it is going to get worse and worse and more extreme.
 
It's all a bit 'the end of the world is nigh'. Remember those nutters that used to wear boards outide Oxford Circus?

There is one thing you need to accept, but will find it hard to. That is european member states agree with you. As do I. An EU army is not something anyone wants. Sure you can find the odd person who does, but whats new there? There will always be exceptions that prove the rule. The UK (like other nations in Europe) would not countenance Brussels sending off our troupes!! Why the fuk would they? Do you think British people would want that!?! What a nonsense.

Therefore PESCO is not a stepping stone, it is what it says on the tin, and you are a tiny bit deluded (or you've been listening to freaks that are).

Hey, don't tell it to me, tell it to them:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...calls-for-eu-army-european-commission-miltary


https://www.handelsblatt.com/today/...ml?ticket=ST-8693577-SFsWH1Nv2B6VR6fXV1iq-ap3

Straight fro the horses' mouths; Maybe The EU themselves are all conspiracy theorists eh:rolleyes:
 
I'm genuinely beyond disgusted at what this country has become and am genuinely finding it difficult at times to engage with certain people knowing their views on things.

I feel like I've stepped into an alternate reality.

You want us to get out of the EU ASAP don't you?

:p
 
I always try to listen to alternative points of view of mine. As long as they are not inciting violence or doing sick stuff to children I'm fairly open minded like that.

I do feel like a lot of blame needs to be laid at the feet of those that lost the referendum.

Do you think when Johnson gets defeated in the house people are just going to forget all this and give up?

I think it is going to get worse and worse and more extreme.

Yep, usually I'm like that as well. People who know me well say it is almost impossible to upset me and I think that is justified.

But I look at what this country has voted for and what it has become in the last 3 years and I am genuinely disgusted. Some of the discussions I've had with patients, colleagues and friends have left me baffled and at times a bit appalled to be honest.

There is an unbelievable amount of hypocrisy going on here. An unelected PM, selected by a tiny percentage of the country's population, proroguing parliament, a tactic widely denounced literally weeks ago by almost all Tories, after a rallying cry of the referendum being 'taking back control and making laws in our parliament etc'....would just crack me up if the whole thing wasn't directly affecting the country I live in.

I've seen this line of argument before (including from you when I shared the story of the racism at work) and I let it slide then but its fair to say I completely and utterly disagree. I think it is a major cop out and a failure to acknowledge an aspect of the leave campaign (an aspect, not the entire thing) that has been there from the very beginning. From the Farage posters of refugee waves to the UK, to Boris' lies about Turkey and the EU, there has been an element of that for some in the campaign from the beginning. And from the beginning, some have been treating the referendum as a winner takes all campaign, rather than acknowledging that it was a razor thin victory, in a highly emotive issue and that perhaps a less aggressive approach may have been better.

The funny thing is, despite being a strong remainer, a generally big fan of the EU and as someone who, if I'm honest, feels more in common with a lot of mainland Europeans than most of the Brits I've met who voted leave (and this is certainly even more true for my kids), I've maintained from the beginning that there was no point overturning the referendum result or trying to. Not because I think Brexit will be good for the country (unsurprisingly, I don't) but because I agree that it wouldn't be good for our democracy (kind of like an unelected PM making drastic parliamentary decisions but ah well). That doesn't mean that I think it should be remain or no deal. I think that is a fool's errand and I fear that the people who will most suffer from this are the ones who have the least ability to cope.

Quick side point, I don't know why people get offended when they say some people on the leave side were misled. Of course they fudging were. Even bloody Farage was talking about how we'd come away with a great deal. No deal was not on anyone's minds or lips when the campaign was being fought. In hindsight, it was an absolute masterclass. What was mostly promised was an absolute utopia, where we'd keep all the positives of being in the EU, none of the negatives and we'd walk away with a great deal. As time has gone on, this whole process has been hijacked by the Tory far right who I'm sure will do very well in a no deal Brexit.

It is exhausting and I genuinely feel neither welcome in this country anymore nor am I particularly sure I want to be here with my family. And not because of any overblown fear about violence or being thrown out. I know neither will happen. Because I know that once I leave my little bubble in London, I'm surrounded by people who hold diametrically opposite views and views which I consider to be damaging to this country.

C'est la vie I guess.
 
You want us to get out of the EU ASAP don't you?

:p

Oh for sure!

Bendy bananas, fisherman, 350 million a week, bloody Europeans with weird names taking our jobs and our benefits simultaneously and telling us what to do from Brussels of all places, offensive references to the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, United States of Europe, anti democratic, unelected decision makers, stealing our money, we buy all their BMWs they'll come crawling to us for a deal, floods of immigrants from the Middle East, Project fear, Napoleon and Waterloo, 2 world wars and world cup and all that!

Did I get all of the right talking points? :D
 
The theme here is a feeling like the EU controls us. When actually member states control the EU. There woud never be an EU army because members wouldn't want Brussels telling them where to send forces. Any suggestion would be vetoed. @Danishfurniturelover same applies to EU taxation. We don't want it. They don't want it.

That's not true though, is it. If the EU was just the European Council, that would be the case, and that would be great.

However the Commission and Parliament are the apparatus of not just a nation state, but of an empire. Like what the fudge was the Green Goblin doing at the G7, watching over Merkel and Macron?

EU taxation already exists - the fact we have to have a tampon tax, and can't have more than two different rates of VAT (so can't use it for state intervention, e.g. on green issues), are EU taxes.
 
Anybody in here changed their mind on brexit (either way) since the referendum?

I have become ever more convinced of its folly and the short term economic impact it will have (and which it has already had, despite all of the mocking references to project fear).

Long term, I think the UK could do quite well either in or out of the EU. The short term impact (I'm talking years here) of no deal though will be brutal imo.
 

So Jezza has just managed to come 4th to "Don't know" in a two horse race.....

Didn't your colleague in banking argue that the reason for the slide in the pound and companies moving operations out of the UK was nothing to do with Brexit whatsoever and was because all of the important people thought Corbyn was going to become PM and steal everyone's money and send us all to re-education camps?

Can we expect a rise in the value of our currency soon?
 
Oh for sure!

Bendy bananas, fisherman, 350 million a week, bloody Europeans with weird names taking our jobs and our benefits simultaneously and telling us what to do from Brussels of all places, offensive references to the Soviet Union and Nazi Germany, United States of Europe, anti democratic, unelected decision makers, stealing our money, we buy all their BMWs they'll come crawling to us for a deal, floods of immigrants from the Middle East, Project fear, Napoleon and Waterloo, 2 world wars and world cup and all that!

Did I get all of the right talking points? :D

Hmm, just United States of Europe would suffice

:p
 
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