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Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

I don't think most Tories are anti immigration (some are) but they use it as a pretence to help fulfil their own agenda which is really de-regulation and legal freedom to operate outside of the EU framework.

The Tory party are grounded in King and country and loath cooperating with any other government except the good old USA!
Tories = money, wealth and privilege nothing more! the EU threaten their power as they look to help everybody!
 
I read the same article and I don't think it's an unfair characterisation of the EU to suggest that the rest is just some words that they can and will choose to ignore when it suits them. The only actual guarantee is on the delay of benefits - that's a one-off and we wouldn't get another.
But those words were part of a package of things WE asked for. We asked and they conceded. On other points we negotiate.
 
But those words were part of a package of things WE asked for. We asked and they conceded. On other points we negotiate.
They were a non-binding statement. We didn't ask for a wooly statement of intent, we asked for guarantees - the kind of thing the EU cannot revert in future when it suits them. They refused, and instead made some non-binding statements.
 
I am not threatening him for posting them. I am threatening him because he said he wants to knock some fudging sense into us. That is as clear as day threatening behaviour.

You Milo galeforce among others have different views to me on brexit never once have I made a threat to you, why for the simple reason you never have towards me.

You and I disagree massively on brexit but in recent months we have come to comment on each other posts in other threads with respect and politeness. You are stuck in your view as I am mine.

I have a couple of friends who voted remain in real life and it is fine. But guess what happens to anyone who offers to come and knock some fudging sense into me. They will get hurt.

Notice you do not have a problem with his post and his language towards violence. Play fair chap either were both wrong in your book or were not.

I can see how that would be provocative. Let off some steam. How’s the mozzarella?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Depends on industry I suspect. There are plenty of industries that have been shat on from a great height by the EU because they're less common than in the UK or less competitive.

It wasn't all that long ago that the EU was looking at methods to circuit around our veto in order to enforce transactional taxes in banking. Many were warning we risked losing many of our financial services to the US or Japan unless we found a way to curtail the aggressive socialism of the EU.

...yet you chose to setup a factory in the EU. And voted to remain. I guess you’re a model modern day conservatives. Full of contradictions.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
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We did try and extract concessions but got given a stone in return. I think people would be interested in reform (myself included depending on the level of change) but no party has activley campaigned for a remain and reform agenda including concrete proposals for what they'd change and how they'd go about getting support for them. I suspect this is because they aren't interested in reform but even if they were the EU would give them short thrift anyway.
Agree there is a lack of invention in politics. Ironically I think Boris could be someone who has the capacity to try new ideas. But he’s a slave to Brexit now, it being the thing that got him in power; and the Tory’s fear of Farage delivering Corbyn.

Remain and reform is interesting. Harness all the important things that have been thrown up by Brexit and deliver something of rap value to the UK. Focus on viable actions.

One of which is to work with member states to finesse FoM. Have to remember the EU is just a representation of member states wishes. With support from members we can shape the EU. The UK has in the past. They key is it has to work for the other nations too. With issues of illegal immigrants freely travelling across borders in the EU, and various popularist parties gaining support, there is potential to make some subtle changes. I’m not sure they’d be enough for most Leavers as we’d have to keep some form of free movement. Just set in place ways to control it more. No benefits tourism etc


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
...yet you chose to setup a factory in the EU. And voted to remain. I guess you’re a model modern day conservatives. Full of contradictions.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
Very happy to set up a factory in the EU as it is selling into the EU. No matter what happens to the UK, products sold to the EU will have to conform to their standards. No good reason why that should apply to UK products though.

I've explained my reasons for voting when I did - yet again you play the fool in an attempt to twist an argument into something it isn't. This is getting a lot like trying to play chess with a pigeon.
 
Although written with sarcasm, it is not a bad idea. Other EU nations have similar concerns. Baveria in Germany wants to put up its own border posts. Hungry are not cool with free movement etc. A combination of working with other EU nations to evolve FoM, plus excercising our own controls that are allowed under EU law but we are not using at the moment e.g. the ability to register and send back migrants from the EU who are not working after 4 weeks.

It's why empires like the EU never work. The people become so disenfranchised and lack any sense of belonging, and have no recourse for their grievances. The oligarchs have to rule through diktats, where 'the way things have to be' are simply pronounced from on high.

The only way to break the yoke then is through active rebellion, like Brexit.

In empires things are just too big and unwieldy to allow democratic consent
 
Only 15% of our GDP is exports to the EU. I'm currently sitting in an office, attached to a factory that cannot compete in RoW trade because the other 85% of everything we do is also subject to EU regulations.

Exports to the EU are far from the only thing being part of it gives you. You are the third largest destination for inward investment in the world, with a large part of that coming because of your easy access to the single market. And the most conservative estimates put the drop in FDI that will follow Brexit at 20-25%, which will have a corresponding effect on declines in average real income of between roughly 2% and 4% - or 2,200 pounds per household in terms of a loss in GDP.

That's completely excluding trade, by the way - in fact, with the increased trade costs factored in, you're likely looking at a drop in GDP of 4,000 pounds per household.

That's a preposterous situation. If the EU wants to trade, fine. If the EU wants to put expensive and prohibitive regulations in place on EU products, fine. But fudge them if they want to tell us what we can and can't sell to our own market, or Dubai or the US.

They also negotiate access to other markets for you - and get you better terms than what you would have gotten on your own. Again, using Canada as an example, we gave the EU (and thus the UK) reciprocal, greater tariff-free access to areas of our economy that have been protected from even the Americans (and have stayed protected even through the renegotiated USMCA). Advanced manufacturing (electric equipment, medical devices, rail products, scientific and precision instruments) chemicals, dairy, agriculture..you name it, we cut tariffs on it.

Because the EU's internal market was large enough for us to ensure that our companies could access their market and offset domestic losses from increased competition. The UK also benefited from that, with your own manufacturing industry (of which you are a part, I'm guessing). Those terms will be null and void when you're out, and you'll have to trade against high tariffs again until you make new deals.

They did whatever suited them at all times. Look at how they treated Ireland over the Lisbon "treaty." Where was our veto for the working time directive? Or the Solvent Emissions Directive?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union#Schengen_Agreement_–_Ireland_and_the_United_Kingdom

Here are your vetoes on things far more important than either, from Schengen to the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice, and the Charter of Fundamental Rights. You even opted out of the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty before Blair pulled you back in.

Britain had a uniquely untethered place in the EU, and a raft of powers and discretions not available to anyone else. As for Ireland, I'm not sure what you mean. They had a referendum on joining the Lisbon treaty in 2008. Ireland voted against. The government went to the EU, renegotiated the treaty, including about twenty exemptions that nullified large sections of the treaty, and got it approved second time in another referendum.

What did the EU do there that was so shabby?

We don't want your standardisation of regulations thanks. If we want to sell into Canada we'll have to fit with your regulations - I'm perfectly happy with that, just leave our regulations where we can change them with govt every 5 years.

If you'll want equivalent access to CETA for some of your best sectors (including advanced manufacturing), you won't get it, because your market isn't big enough for us to think it's worth the risk. You'll be trading at a disadvantage, as your unilateral abolishment of tariffs on almost every industry post-Brexit allows Canadian firms free access to the UK, while trading on WTO rules means Canada gets to set tariffs of up to 14% on a huge variety of sectors and privilege our own companies in any transactions involving your companies and ours. That's before our non-tariff regulations, which you won't be able to fit if it disadvantages or even levels the playing field for our products when compared to yours.

And that's just us in Canada - I freely admit, we're not the most powerful or influential place. But we will still adopt that approach, because it benefits us. The US, China, India et al? They'll bend the UK over, mate.

Even with Most Favoured Nation status - there's a reason basing the majority of your trade on WTO rules is avoided by every major nation, and rightfully so.

As for changing your regulations every five years, that defeats the purpose of a trad deal. Trade deals don't work if they have to be renewed every five years. The business cycle needs stability, and there is a reason trade deals (like NAFTA, for instance) tend to last a long time - decades. And if you do a trade deal, you can't change them with your government every five years, or there's no point to one.

As a fan of British history, I'm surprised you consider conflict in one form or another with Europe to be anything other than our natural state.

True, it was your natural state - as was creating disunity on the continent to suit your strategic needs. But the thing is, strategic needs change based on your position relative to your rivals. And the UK's position relative to the United States, China et al means that your best shot now is working with Europe to form a coherent power bloc - not going your own way and becoming a minnow in a world of sparring hegemons.

We're still the country of all those wonderful things, and historical stains like Attlee and Bevan too. Now though, we'll again be the country that was able to create that, not some subservient lapdog to Germany and France. We'll be the low tax, low regulation competition that either steals trade from the EU or (hopefully) forces the EU to see that the only way to compete is to take down all the barriers to trade they keep building and act like a free trading bloc in the modern world. If they do so, I'd have no issue with, once again, collaborating with them to create something bigger and better.

You were always the country that was able to create that, and you were never subservient to anyone. You enjoyed the biggest voice in the EU, behind Germany - you could opt out of the majority of things they tried to do, and you frustrated their ambitions for closer union for many years without an issue.

My fear, and my sadness for you, is that your low-tax, low-regulation dream will kill your domestic industries and reduce you to a subservient lapdog of Washington or Beijing instead. Your internal market can't sustain large industries anymore, and that puts your companies at a strategic disadvantage to the US (with a large, wealthy internal market), China (likewise), India (likewise, albeit a poorer market) and anyone with tariff-free access to the market right next door to you (which is the *wealthiest* internal market on the planet). To get around that, companies secure equal access to these markets - which your companies can't do, since none of these countries have incentives to give you preferential access given that Britain does not have as much to offer as it did when it was last an independent power.The world has moved on.

I'm not trying to talk down Britain here - as I said, I deeply love so many things to do with the UK, and I have family over there, friends over there, ties over there. But these are geostrategic facts - no amount of wishing for low-tax, low-regulation competition will wish away these realities. That's why I think you're setting fire to your own place in the world - Britain will not benefit from this, in any way, shape or form. The world is a realist place, and Britain cannot go it alone.
 
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Exports to the EU are far from the only thing being part of it gives you. You are the third largest destination for inward investment in the world, with a large part of that coming because of your easy access to the single market. And the most conservative estimates put the drop in FDI that will follow Brexit at 20-25%, which will have a corresponding effect on declines in average real income of between roughly 2% and 4% - or 2,200 pounds per household in terms of a loss in GDP.

That's completely excluding trade, by the way - in fact, with the increased trade costs factored in, you're likely looking at a drop in GDP of 4,000 pounds per household.



They also negotiate access to other markets for you - and get you better terms than what you would have gotten on your own. Again, using Canada as an example, we gave the EU (and thus the UK) reciprocal, greater tariff-free access to areas of our economy that have been protected from even the Americans (and have stayed protected even through the renegotiated USMCA). Advanced manufacturing (electric equipment, medical devices, rail products, scientific and precision instruments) chemicals, dairy, agriculture..you name it, we cut tariffs on it.

Because the EU's internal market was large enough for us to ensure that our companies could access their market and offset domestic losses from increased competition. The UK also benefited from that, with your own manufacturing industry (of which you are a part, I'm guessing). Those terms will be null and void when you're out, and you'll have to trade against high tariffs again until you make new deals.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opt-outs_in_the_European_Union#Schengen_Agreement_–_Ireland_and_the_United_Kingdom

Here are your vetoes on things far more important than either, from Schengen to the Area of Freedom, Security and Justice, and the Charter of Fundamental Rights. You even opted out of the Social Chapter of the Maastricht Treaty before Blair pulled you back in.

Britain had a uniquely untethered place in the EU, and a raft of powers and discretions not available to anyone else. As for Ireland, I'm not sure what you mean. They had a referendum on joining the Lisbon treaty in 2008. Ireland voted against. The government went to the EU, renegotiated the treaty, including about twenty exemptions that nullified large sections of the treaty, and got it approved second time in another referendum.

What did the EU do there that was so shabby?



If you'll want equivalent access to CETA for some of your best sectors (including advanced manufacturing), you won't get it, because your market isn't big enough for us to think it's worth the risk. You'll be trading at a disadvantage, as your unilateral abolishment of tariffs on almost every industry post-Brexit allows Canadian firms free access to the UK, while trading on WTO rules means Canada gets to set tariffs of up to 14% on a huge variety of sectors and privilege our own companies in any transactions involving your companies and ours. That's before our non-tariff regulations, which you won't be able to fit if it disadvantages or even levels the playing field for our products when compared to yours.

And that's just us in Canada - I freely admit, we're not the most powerful or influential place. But we will still adopt that approach, because it benefits us. The US, China, India et al? They'll bend the UK over, mate.

Even with Most Favoured Nation status - there's a reason basing the majority of your trade on WTO rules is avoided by every major nation, and rightfully so.

As for changing your regulations every five years, that defeats the purpose of a trad deal. Trade deals don't work if they have to be renewed every five years. The business cycle needs stability, and there is a reason trade deals (like NAFTA, for instance) tend to last a long time - decades. And if you do a trade deal, you can't change them with your government every five years, or there's no point to one.



True, it was your natural state - as was creating disunity on the continent to suit your strategic needs. But the thing is, strategic needs change based on your position relative to your rivals. And the UK's position relative to the United States, China et al means that your best shot now is working with Europe to form a coherent power bloc - not going your own way and becoming a minnow in a world of sparring hegemons.



You were always the country that was able to create that, and you were never subservient to anyone. You enjoyed the biggest voice in the EU, behind Germany - you could opt out of the majority of things they tried to do, and you frustrated their ambitions for closer union for many years without an issue.

My fear, and my sadness for you, is that your low-tax, low-regulation dream will kill your domestic industries and reduce you to a subservient lapdog of Washington or Beijing instead. Your internal market can't sustain large industries anymore, and that puts your companies at a strategic disadvantage to the US (with a large, wealthy internal market), China (likewise), India (likewise, albeit a poorer market) and anyone with tariff-free access to the market right next door to you (which is the *wealthiest* internal market on the planet). To get around that, companies secure equal access to these markets - which your companies can't do, since none of these countries have incentives to give you preferential access given that Britain does not have as much to offer as it did when it was last an independent power.The world has moved on.

I'm not trying to talk down Britain here - as I said, I deeply love so many things to do with the UK, and I have family over there, friends over there, ties over there. But these are geostrategic facts - no amount of wishing for low-tax, low-regulation competition will wish away these realities. That's why I think you're setting fire to your own place in the world - Britain will not benefit from this, in any way, shape or form. The world is a realist place, and Britain cannot go it alone.
You seem convinced that the UK has a veto - that's just a lack of understanding of how the EU works. As an example - the UK used its veto on a piece of employment law named the Working Time Directive. The EU then recategorised the directive as H&S law, not employment where the UK doesn't have a veto. Until Brexit took over their focus, there was a lot of work going into how to get around Luxembourg's veto on taxation - something that would absolutely ruin the economic model of that country. They spent a lot of time doing the same to try and make our financial services sector less competitive.

Your view of the Lisbon "treaty" is not one shared by any Irish person I've discussed it with (and I have a lot of family out there). Their feeling is that they got their answer book handed back and were told they'd got the answer wrong, keep trying until they got it right. For that reason everyone I know who voted against it stayed home after the first as it was clear they'd have to keep voting until they got it "right". Referendums should never be run twice in quick succession - the side that lost the first will always be more motivated than the side who won.

That's ignoring the stitch up that Blair and Brown were complicit in. The EU were aware that their constitution changes would require a referendum in the UK and that they would fail - that's why the new constitution became a treaty. No government should bind the hands of the next, yet through their treachery (and I use that word in all seriousness here) Blair and Brown have made it impossible for future governments to return to what was a significantly better (though far from perfect) EU.

I agree that many of our trading terms will be marginally less generous outside the EU, I also know that tax breaks and deregulation can overcome most of that. Those same catastrophic models for the UK have been made from the day following the referendum - they were wrong then and there's no good reason to think they're any more accurate now.

A biased source, I admit, but a snapshot of what's really happening in the UK:
https://order-order.com/tag/despite-brexit/

I'm not entirely against EU membership. If we really did have a veto that we could rely on being able to use on any item whatsoever, if we could apply it historically to previous stitch ups and had a guarantee it could be used in perpetuity, I'd be interested in membership.
 
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Very happy to set up a factory in the EU as it is selling into the EU. No matter what happens to the UK, products sold to the EU will have to conform to their standards. No good reason why that should apply to UK products though.

I've explained my reasons for voting when I did - yet again you play the fool in an attempt to twist an argument into something it isn't. This is getting a lot like trying to play chess with a pigeon.

So you weren’t ‘shat on from a great height’ as an industry by the EU as you setup a factory in their backyard!

If you’d like a game of chess, this pigeon will teach you some tricks.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
We absolutely were, but based on the fact that we're unable to change EU law by ourselves, those are the rules by which we have to play.

Yet you recently described this EU factory as highly profitable. More so than the UK alternative. Hmmmm. It just doesn’t add up.

Some environmental laws that stop factories polluting and some laws that protect workers are your ‘shat on from a great height’ but have clearly not stopped you having a profitable setup in the EU.

How much of your argument is logic and how much is an emotional dislike of the EU?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
 
Yet you recently described this EU factory as highly profitable. More so than the UK alternative. Hmmmm. It just doesn’t add up.

Some environmental laws that stop factories polluting and some laws that protect workers are your ‘shat on from a great height’ but have clearly not stopped you having a profitable setup in the EU.

How much of your argument is logic and how much is an emotional dislike of the EU?


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app
It's entirely logic - as with all positions I take.

Now that the EU has levelled the playing field and made it it impossible for UK businesses to continue being the best in the world at what we do, it's better to be where the labour and transport are cheaper. Before the EU overrode our own laws, there's no way an EU business could have attracted the level of sales a UK one could.
 
There was plenty of give and take. Don't believe the rhetoric of the leavers. We didn't join the eurozone, stayed out of schengen, the Danes opted out of Europol. But what Cameron was asking for was compromise on one of the 4 freedoms in a way that was a bit like an ultimatum. That was not the way to go about it. What he did secure was concessions on benefit claims for EU migrants.

I dont believe rhetoric of the leavers, and its rather patronising for you suggest such.

I remember very well at the time. The UK has a genuine issue with immigration, the leader of a sovereign nation - one of the largest contributors to the whole EU project - goes to them to express these issues and look for means to mitigate them.

The EU, in their hubris, dont even entertain the notion. There is nothing wrong with the EU, and we should just know our place in that. Pat on the head, fudge off. Sniggers as DC leaves with his tail between his legs because they are so arrogant they cannot fathom someone deciding to leave. So they just mug you off.

So we have the referendum, the one he warned of, the one they so casually ignored, and the people of the nation tell the EU to stick it.

And here we are.

Makes you wonder where we might be if the EU were actually open to change, rather than the dogmatic approach to the project they have.
 
I dont believe rhetoric of the leavers, and its rather patronising for you suggest such.

I remember very well at the time. The UK has a genuine issue with immigration, the leader of a sovereign nation - one of the largest contributors to the whole EU project - goes to them to express these issues and look for means to mitigate them.

The EU, in their hubris, dont even entertain the notion. There is nothing wrong with the EU, and we should just know our place in that. Pat on the head, fudge off. Sniggers as DC leaves with his tail between his legs because they are so arrogant they cannot fathom someone deciding to leave. So they just mug you off.

So we have the referendum, the one he warned of, the one they so casually ignored, and the people of the nation tell the EU to stick it.

And here we are.

Makes you wonder where we might be if the EU were actually open to change, rather than the dogmatic approach to the project they have.

You can't challenge imperialist righteousness with silly things like reason and democratic mandate
 
It's entirely logic - as with all positions I take.

Now that the EU has levelled the playing field and made it it impossible for UK businesses to continue being the best in the world at what we do, it's better to be where the labour and transport are cheaper. Before the EU overrode our own laws, there's no way an EU business could have attracted the level of sales a UK one could.

There was nothing stopping you setting up a factory outside the EU was there? Yet you chose to have two in the customs uninion. You are right, your decision was entirely logical. That is the EU was a good place for you to run and do business. What is illogical is your emotional dislike of the EU. Not wholly illogical. With the media representations and a them and us narrative I get it.
 
There was nothing stopping you setting up a factory outside the EU was there? Yet you chose to have two in the customs uninion. You are right, your decision was entirely logical. That is the EU was a good place for you to run and do business. What is illogical is your emotional dislike of the EU. Not wholly illogical. With the media representations and a them and us narrative I get it.
The UK was a great place to do business from - our position as a UK manufacturer was widely regarded due to the standards and methodology used in the UK.

EU law prevented that and made the status of a UK producer worthless. At that point there was no reason to put a plant in RoW because the UK methods which drove the world to us were no longer used. Not only did the EU level the playing field between them and us (intentionally) in doing so, they (I believe inadvertently) levelled the playing field between us and RoW.
 
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