Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[ricky2tricky4city]

No this is confused

I said the policy of being selective was not "discriminate" which was questioning your use of the term which I feel you used to try and suggest our preferred policy was in some way bigoted.

I will be very clear, I would be very selective and have no issue with the Aussie system, I am not going back down the road of arguing if that system was discriminate.

We do need migrants for less skilled work and any "selection" policy at the time will reflect that, aka like said the other day when the country requires a certain skill set you turn that tap on with immigration ane when the country is over subscribed in other skills you turn that tap off. Thats not hard to do.

Don't bother mate. He'll be misrepresenting you in other conversations next.

 

[nayenezgani]

Is this post meant for me? I've been consistent, saying national imigration policies have to discriminate. You told me they don't. And an Aussie system would be more fair to migrants. I said such a setup would be more fair to the UK, not more fair to migrants. Almost like you are arguing against your previous 'lefist' posts! Maybe you need to direct your points to @ricky2tricky4city who seems to favour a more open approach similar to what we have with EU migrants now.

My angle and question - which you weren't able or were unwilling to answer - is do you expect Brexit to "fix" UK immigration? Bearing in mind the UK needs some migrants for less skills work, we control the majority of our immigration now (from RoW). And that opinion polls report that Brits prefer european migrants to those from further afield. Is Brexit going to deliver on this key area do you think?

Migrants for less skills work? Who the fudge do you think you are?

 

[SpurMeUp]

Migrants for less skills work? Who the fudge do you think you are?

Who picks most of the fruit from British farms, or takes the strain in the NHS doing an amazing job caring for people, or carries out the least skilled building works on sites accross the country including our stadium? If you can't be polite and talk through the issue that is a shame.

 

[glorygloryeze]

Does anyone remember the ONS statistical release a few months before the referendum which stated (effectively) that the numbers of migrants from EU countries since some Eastern European countries had joined the EU was at a level that meant no-one could say the numbers had a major effect on public service usage etc.

You do wonder how politically motivated that statitical release was at the time because i remember that it seemed to be one that hadn't been released before in that format (i.e. specifically having the focus being on age and profile of EU migration) and with now the ONS admitting that they don't really have a handle on the figures one has to think that release may have actually vastly underestimated the numbers so that it was easy to push a certain message.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Joker.

Have you got a hearing/reading problem?

I think I'll join @scaramanga and give you short thrift.

Let's leave it. I don't want to upset anyone. For the record, you said we should have a migrantion system that is more fair and less discriminatory. I simply pointed out that the Aussie system - which Boris is suggesting we follow - which gives points based on age and education amongst other things is by definition discriminatory. Which is fine. That is how most people expect it to be. But lets not pretent we are putting migrants first with such a system, we are putting the UK first. Then you said you want a system where everyone is happy - admirable - but couldn't suggest a systtem to achieve it.

Have no desire to wind you up. Enjoy the sunshine!

 

[parklane1]

Joker.

Have you got a hearing/reading problem?

I think I'll join @scaramanga and give you short thrift.

Join the club mate, i gave up discussing things with him ages ago. He will dismiss anything that does not suit his agenda and ( ears closed) and then repeat the same old brick he has been doing since the vote. Not worth the time or effort.

 

[SpurMeUp]

Join the club mate, i gave up discussing things with him ages ago. He will dismiss anything that does not suit his agenda and ( ears closed) and then repeat the same old brick he has been doing since the vote. Not worth the time or effort.

Rather than personal attacks stand behind your aguements and make the case for them. I have no bad blood towards anyone here. I am happy to be challanged, and proved wrong. I would be happy for Brexit to be a success and am open to any logic for it. But if or when something doesn't stack up, am I suposed to just go with the crowd and not challange it? If people can't substantiate their points or decide to have a pop on a personal level that's their choice, but its not to do with me not listening.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

Rather than personal attacks stand behind your aguements and make the case for them. I have no bad blood towards anyone here. I am happy to be challanged, and proved wrong. I would be happy for Brexit to be a success and am open to any logic for it. But if or when something doesn't stack up, am I suposed to just go with the crowd and not challange it? If people can't substantiate their points or decide to have a pop on a personal level that's their choice, but its not to do with me not listening.

Self awareness bypass.

 

[Rorschach]

Play the ball not the man

 

[Grays_1890]

Who picks most of the fruit from British farms, or takes the strain in the NHS doing an amazing job caring for people, or carries out the least skilled building works on sites accross the country including our stadium? If you can't be polite and talk through the issue that is a shame.

And in a selective system these people can still have places to come in and do those job if there is a demand.

 

[Grays_1890]

Let's leave it. I don't want to upset anyone. For the record, you said we should have a migration system that is more fair and less discriminatory. I simply pointed out that the Aussie system - which Boris is suggesting we follow - which gives points based on age and education amongst other things is by definition discriminatory. Which is fine. That is how most people expect it to be. But lets not pretend we are putting migrants first with such a system, we are putting the UK first. Then you said you want a system where everyone is happy - admirable - but couldn't suggest a system to achieve it.

Have no desire to wind you up. Enjoy the sunshine!

I would say the system would achieve happiness for all, whats the point of a migrant coming over, being allowed in and there being a lack of jobs for him? Come over and add to the unemployment stats? Surely thats no fun for them, surely there are in most cases other opportunities in other countries that would suit those turned down by the UK so in fact by process everyone would be happy.

And in actual fact that would result in a far more even split of talent regardless if that as a road sweeper or a CEO of a bank and would so a host of other issues.

 

[scaramanga]

I don't think GDP was driven away as has given up trying to compromise with JC, I think she's realised she has no stock with the party membership. Afterall she was one of the first to resign in the big reversable suicide they all did a couple of years back.

Lib Dems are the natural refuge for the centrists, Corb's stratergy is betting that cons will bleed to LD & BP faster than Labour will - Risky but I genuinely don't think he's actually got any actual other card to play.

He could accept what the rest of the world did half a century ago and realise that communism is never the answer.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I would say the system would achieve happiness for all, whats the point of a migrant coming over, being allowed in and there being a lack of jobs for him? Come over and add to the unemployment stats? Surely thats no fun for them, surely there are in most cases other opportunities in other countries that would suit those turned down by the UK so in fact by process everyone would be happy.

And in actual fact that would result in a far more even split of talent regardless if that as a road sweeper or a CEO of a bank and would so a host of other issues.

I agree you have to have some criteria one way or the other. Older uneducated migrants might not be too happy applying to Australia. I was kicked out of school at 15 so not sure I'd get too many points mysefl. It is a sensitive subject, one that's been brushed under the carpet post vote - even by Farage and Leave who used immigration when it suited them. Now they have consciously parked it to one side. It has served a purpose for them (tippinjg the ballance on Brexit). Making Brexit about immigration and not the economy was a conscious effort and extremely shrewd from Leave's perspective.

That is not to put down what is an important issue for many. Is there a genuine immigration issue? There has to be if people feel strongly about it. I'm not sure Remain supporters appreciate it is not about racism or xenophobia (though they can overlap with brexit). I think most folks are quite reaonable and accept all colours and races, but some felt like having a complete open door (to the EU) was too much. And I completely get that. The logic makes sense. As stated before, we have a country with the same population as France, but with half the land. We have a shortage of housing, busy roads etc etc But complex issues are never just black or white. While I believe all the above it true, it is also true that our UK government controls at least half of recent immigration (and a lot more than half now). That has everything to do with the UK government.

So all I'm suggesting is to not let Brexit cloud your judgment. It is easy to attribute all the UKs issues to someone else, when often the fixes lie closer to home. I enjoy pulling these things apart, and hope you don't take any offence when we do so. Disagreement is far more interseting abd can be productive, challanging what we think is true. It works both ways. There are plenty of 'givens' that Remainers believe which should probably be pulled apart. Not least around the sticky subject of immigration.

From the posts today, you can see why the nation (media, politicians) have pulled back from disecting what Brexit is about, and what it might entail. People don't want to be divisive. Is that just avoiding the reality that we'll have to deal with down the line? I am someone who will call it as I see it. I have no desire to win or get one up people. Or even rub them up the wrong way. Just happy to futher my knowledge by being challanged. No hard feelings to MrR2T4C.

 

[Grays_1890]

I agree you have to have some criteria one way or the other. Older uneducated migrants might not be too happy applying to Australia. I was kicked out of school at 15 so not sure I'd get too many points mysefl. It is a sensitive subject, one that's been brushed under the carpet post vote - even by Farage and Leave who used immigration when it suited them. Now they have consciously parked it to one side. It has served a purpose for them (tippinjg the ballance on Brexit). Making Brexit about immigration and not the economy was a conscious effort and extremely shrewd from Leave's perspective.

That is not to put down what is an important issue for many. Is there a genuine immigration issue? There has to be if people feel strongly about it. I'm not sure Remain supporters appreciate it is not about racism or xenophobia (though they can overlap with brexit). I think most folks are quite reaonable and accept all colours and races, but some felt like having a complete open door (to the EU) was too much. And I completely get that. The logic makes sense. As stated before, we have a country with the same population as France, but with half the land. We have a shortage of housing, busy roads etc etc But complex issues are never just black or white. While I believe all the above it true, it is also true that our UK government controls at least half of recent immigration (and a lot more than half now). That has everything to do with the UK government.

So all I'm suggesting is to not let Brexit cloud your judgment. It is easy to attribute all the UKs issues to someone else, when often the fixes lie closer to home. I enjoy pulling these things apart, and hope you don't take any offence when we do so. Disagreement is far more interseting abd can be productive, challanging what we think is true. It works both ways. There are plenty of 'givens' that Remainers believe which should probably be pulled apart. Not least around the sticky subject of immigration.

From the posts today, you can see why the nation (media, politicians) have pulled back from disecting what Brexit is about, and what it might entail. People don't want to be divisive. Is that just avoiding the reality that we'll have to deal with down the line? I am someone who will call it as I see it. I have no desire to win or get one up people. Or even rub them up the wrong way. Just happy to futher my knowledge by be challanged. No hard feelings to MrR2T4C.

Thats a good post I would say immigration in the current form brings good and bad and having control goes some way to assist solve the bad issues but I do agree with the problems closer to home which I totally agree with need to be sorted. I don't blame immigrants for all the problem and I think its a broad stroke to suggest people blame others for our problems, I don't blame immigration for our problems but there are factual parts about it that need to be addressed. Saying that you prefer more control on immigration does not mean your anti immigration which is where half of the arguments on here and in the media seem to go down. As soon as you say anything negative about immigration all of a sudden that it, you are anti the whole lot which is a crock really however you can't be the bigot you are being accused of if people acknowledge the parts that don't make you one.

This is not a huge dig at you but you are guilty manipulating points in order to make posters point seem more right wing shall we say than they are. The whole use of the word discriminate was just an excuse to sex up the point more in my opinion when really the term criteria would have fit better. Its these tactics as a couple of examples that I just have not time for. Its like an obsession with some to ignore you have mixed views and push you to be either one side of the fence or the other in the extreme.

 

[SpurMeUp]

I’ll take it on board. Fair play.


Sitting on my porcelain throne using glory-glory.co.uk mobile app

 

[Rorschach]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1165310352843841539

 

[SpurMeUp]

How would this play out?

• Boris revokes article 50. Stammers something about not wanting to undo peace in Ireland and seemingly cancels Brexit.
• Then with the UKs veto he effectively holds the rest of Europe and the EU to ransome. Either give us a withdrawl agreement we want or no EU law will be passed, because Boris will invoke the veto at every oppotunity. Every time the EU wish to pass a major law.

The kind of plan Scara might like. Would it work?

 

[nayenezgani]

How would this play out?

• Boris revokes article 50. Stammers something about not wanting to undo peace in Ireland and seemingly cancels Brexit.
• Then with the UKs veto he effectively holds the rest of Europe and the EU to ransome. Either give us a withdrawl agreement we want or no EU law will be passed, because Boris will invoke the veto at every oppotunity. Every time the EU wish to pass a major law.

The kind of plan Scara might like. Would it work?

That it's gotten to a stage where you're discussing these as 'viable options' sums up the utter idiotic, cluster-fudgery that is Britain at the moment.

 

[Gutter Boy]

How would this play out?

• Boris revokes article 50. Stammers something about not wanting to undo peace in Ireland and seemingly cancels Brexit.
• Then with the UKs veto he effectively holds the rest of Europe and the EU to ransome. Either give us a withdrawl agreement we want or no EU law will be passed, because Boris will invoke the veto at every oppotunity. Every time the EU wish to pass a major law.

The kind of plan Scara might like. Would it work?

The Lisborn Treaty got rid of most things we could useful veto - almost all things now are simple or qualified majority votes

 

[scaramanga]

How would this play out?

• Boris revokes article 50. Stammers something about not wanting to undo peace in Ireland and seemingly cancels Brexit.
• Then with the UKs veto he effectively holds the rest of Europe and the EU to ransome. Either give us a withdrawl agreement we want or no EU law will be passed, because Boris will invoke the veto at every oppotunity. Every time the EU wish to pass a major law.

The kind of plan Scara might like. Would it work?

No it won't.

As in the past when the UK has used its veto, the EU can and will just recategorise the topic at hand to something the UK can't veto like H&S or environmental policy.

Luxembourg has a veto it regularly uses on taxation. Watch what happens to that over the next 5 years.

I've said before I would happily welcome EU membership if the UK had a permanent and irrevocable veto on all items