Politics, politics, politics (so long and thanks for all the fish)

[Rorschach]

Isn't this exactly why they lost, telling everyone the economy is great whilst voters continuously keep saying they felt poorer. Isn't what you've described basically trickle down economics? GDP is an outdated measure now, people should be looking at more quality of life measures like health care, numeracy, literacy, clean air etc.

Dems should have gone for Bernie when they had the chance, he would have been a great candidate. They'll probably do more of the same next time around.

You've said a few times you don't believe there will be another election again, I really don't see that happening at all.

I agree on GDP. Stupid beyond belief to be still using it but this is the way it is unfortunately.

My main point was that you can get anyone to believe anything if you hammer the message home repeatedly. A good example is crime in the US, which is well down, but everyone thinks it is out of control because this is the message coming from the right. And they are good at drumming home their message in ways the left can only stand and admire.

And on Bernie I would agree. I thought he was great, but such a risk to the status quo was never going to be allowed, including by the establishment dems. Warren was the next best choice and for one brief moment she had some momentum and then she too was removed from the picture using the power of negative messaging. At this point for the left to beat back growing facism they should borrow from the right's playbook but adapt it to their needs. They need their own populist movement maybe with a charismatic figurehead and try to somehow dominate or at least win back some of information space. This is the battle they have soundly lost to date. Twitter being the latest casualty.

I said no more free elections, not no more elections. Think Russia style elections.

 

[Grays_1890]

"protests were about knife crime"

A lot of that is me, and I suspect that is the majority of people.
I don't actively go seeking out wrongs or causes but if I'm in a situation where I can influence the debate I will try to.
A big, big problem though is that people are afraid to speak up because they are labelled.
This is especially a problem on the "left" or "progressive" side, and I don't like using labels like that, where it does feel very much like you have to be 100% in agreement, where everything you say and do and have said and done will be scrutinised and woe betide if you get it wrong.

You need to take people with you, because what you coerced people into agreeing with in public isn't always reflected in the privacy of the voting booth.

I agree with alot of what you say but there are limits to things and how much you pander to people on either side of the argument. I think we need to do something about the climate, thats absolutely clear in my eyes, but do we pander to Just Stop Oils level of militancy and say that what they do is not criminality because they have a message? On the other side, and I get I am a broken record, do we allow mosques to be attacked under the guise of "fear of knives and immigration" when it again is a clear right wing attack? Sometimes you have to call something and some messaging out for what it is and not live in fear of people saying "you are not listening to us" when frankly people are just being d1cks

The "ohhhhh you are just labelling me" line seems to be the go to for alot of people these days when the labels are justified. So on one hand yeh we have to pull people through and understand concerns, on the other I don't think we can allow criminality and lies to be packaged and sold as "our fears" which is what seems to be happening IMO

 

[glasgowspur]

"protests were about knife crime"


I agree with alot of what you say but there are limits to things and how much you pander to people on either side of the argument. I think we need to do something about the climate, thats absolutely clear in my eyes, but do we pander to Just Stop Oils level of militancy and say that what they do is not criminality because they have a message? On the other side, and I get I am a broken record, do we allow mosques to be attacked under the guise of "fear of knives and immigration" when it again is a clear right wing attack? Sometimes you have to call something and some messaging out for what it is and not live in fear of people saying "you are not listening to us" when frankly people are just being d1cks

I think we need to also accept that not everyone is articulate, comfortable speaking publicly , are intimidated or don't feel knowledgeable enough to put their head above the parapet.
Speaking for myself I call it where I see it and how I see it.
I am in no way saying pander to anyone, wrong is wrong and if you feel comfortable calling it out you should. What I feel is missing is that some can be educated to see the error in their behaviour, and for the vast majority of them it wouldn't take much.
We fudge up, we all do stuff we regret, there are things that we all do out of rage and anger that even as we do them we know are wrong.
This behaviour is not always indicative of the real person, they can be brought back into the real world.
The utter cretins that see this as their place in life, there's no hope for them, they deserve anything and everything coming to them.

 

[Grays_1890]

I think we need to also accept that not everyone is articulate, comfortable speaking publicly , are intimidated or don't feel knowledgeable enough to put their head above the parapet.
Speaking for myself I call it where I see it and how I see it.
I am in no way saying pander to anyone, wrong is wrong and if you feel comfortable calling it out you should. What I feel is missing is that some can be educated to see the error in their behaviour, and for the vast majority of them it wouldn't take much.
We fudge up, we all do stuff we regret, there are things that we all do out of rage and anger that even as we do them we know are wrong.
This behaviour is not always indicative of the real person, they can be brought back into the real world.
The utter cretins that see this as their place in life, there's no hope for them, they deserve anything and everything coming to them.

Again I agree with that BUT its difficult to vacuum those who are unable to articulate it and or are scared to speak up because the extremism on either side will hold them in their bosom and then it becomes difficult or near impossible to change. Sounds defeatist but I strongly believe it, Trumps a life criminal and a rapist, he has these people on a string, to the point now where if you questions the criminality its seemingly only strengthens his grip on those people. Thats a strange place to be in, when you can't call out someone for the crimes they commit at risk of strengthening their hold on people.

I think we are in a really bad place in the world where there is a gun to our heads really. Its sad, totally sad

 

[SkipRat]

Isn't this exactly why they lost, telling everyone the economy is great whilst voters continuously keep saying they felt poorer. Isn't what you've described basically trickle down economics? GDP is an outdated measure now, people should be looking at more quality of life measures like health care, numeracy, literacy, clean air etc.

Dems should have gone for Bernie when they had the chance, he would have been a great candidate. They'll probably do more of the same next time around.

You've said a few times you don't believe there will be another election again, I really don't see that happening at all.

Yup, it was insane not to have taken Bernie, especially as he was actually offering change which is what the Americans were crying for at the time.

But they went with Hilary because she represent the corporate and financial sectors...

We have had Trump 2x now, Brexit, incompetant Tory government voted in, time after time, until they got punished for not doing what they promised.

They just never learn, they never listen, they push agendas based on garbage...

Then they lie...

 

[glasgowspur]

Again I agree with that BUT its difficult to vacuum those who are unable to articulate it and or are scared to speak up because the extremism on either side will hold them in their bosom and then it becomes difficult or near impossible to change. Sounds defeatist but I strongly believe it, Trumps a life criminal and a rapist, he has these people on a string, to the point now where if you questions the criminality its seemingly only strengthens his grip on those people. Thats a strange place to be in, when you can't call out someone for the crimes they commit at risk of strengthening their hold on people.

I think we are in a really bad place in the world where there is a gun to our heads really. Its sad, totally sad

Trump has a grip because he isn't judging them, he's not holding them to some totally unachievable ideal.
He allows them to be themselves (see the irony), he accepts them warts and all.
He listens to their concerns, he engages.
It's all flimflam bs, but he gives them what they want.
Most people are not politically aware, they bring you a grievance, pat them on the head, tell them you will sort it, make them feel listened to, important for 5 minutes and they will go away happy.
The right understand that, the left really, really don't.
It will switch, given time it will change again.
Blair, for all his faults, understood it, so it will switch round again, probably when the right over stretch themselves and people see who they really are.

 

[SkipRat]

"protests were about knife crime"


I agree with alot of what you say but there are limits to things and how much you pander to people on either side of the argument. I think we need to do something about the climate, thats absolutely clear in my eyes, but do we pander to Just Stop Oils level of militancy and say that what they do is not criminality because they have a message? On the other side, and I get I am a broken record, do we allow mosques to be attacked under the guise of "fear of knives and immigration" when it again is a clear right wing attack? Sometimes you have to call something and some messaging out for what it is and not live in fear of people saying "you are not listening to us" when frankly people are just being d1cks

The "ohhhhh you are just labelling me" line seems to be the go to for alot of people these days when the labels are justified. So on one hand yeh we have to pull people through and understand concerns, on the other I don't think we can allow criminality and lies to be packaged and sold as "our fears" which is what seems to be happening IMO

Of course not, and 99% of people who have issues with knife crime and immigration think rioting, setting let buildings with people in is wrong and don't support it and agree that they deserve what they got.

But just as the actions of the Just Stop Oil are used to tarnish everyone who thinks that climate change is man made is a left wing nut job and it's all a hoax...

You are using the actions of small group of rioters, not all of whom were far right, to tarnish everyone as far right.

And that is what Starmer did and that is why he has lost the country.

All it does is create tension, distrust, anger, and pushes people away.

 

[SkipRat]

Trump has a grip because he isn't judging them, he's not holding them to some totally unachievable ideal.
He allows them to be themselves (see the irony), he accepts them warts and all.
He listens to their concerns, he engages.
It's all flimflam bs, but he gives them what they want.
Most people are not politically aware, they bring you a grievance, pat them on the head, tell them you will sort it, make them feel listened to, important for 5 minutes and they will go away happy.
The right understand that, the left really, really don't.
It will switch, given time it will change again.
Blair, for all his faults, understood it, so it will switch round again, probably when the right over stretch themselves and people see who they really are.

I am not sure to behonest.

That's the worrying thing.

 

[Grays_1890]

Trump has a grip because he isn't judging them, he's not holding them to some totally unachievable ideal.
He allows them to be themselves (see the irony), he accepts them warts and all.
He listens to their concerns, he engages.
It's all flimflam bs, but he gives them what they want.
Most people are not politically aware, they bring you a grievance, pat them on the head, tell them you will sort it, make them feel listened to, important for 5 minutes and they will go away happy.
The right understand that, the left really, really don't.
It will switch, given time it will change again.
Blair, for all his faults, understood it, so it will switch round again, probably when the right over stretch themselves and people see who they really are.

I agree with this to a point, I think there is a massive snake oil sales pitch with Trump, I don't think he is listening, I think he is aligning himself with the values people are clearly showing, the two are different IMO which is where my concerns come from. We have to listen to people absolutely, but we have to call bigotry out when its prevalent and obvious otherwise we will see the breakdown of society.

I probably spend too much time on twitter and social media reading through the BS, but its now the battle ground for politics IMO, thats why Musk wanted it. Its become too much of a safe space for too many extreme voices and for me the likes of Trump muddy the waters between listening to concerns AND allowing misinformed and hateful views to grow and spread.

 

[glasgowspur]

I agree with this to a point, I think there is a massive snake oil sales pitch with Trump, I don't think he is listening, I think he is aligning himself with the values people are clearly showing, the two are different IMO which is where my concerns come from. We have to listen to people absolutely, but we have to call bigotry out when its prevalent and obvious otherwise we will see the breakdown of society.

I probably spend too much time on twitter and social media reading through the BS, but its now the battle ground for politics IMO, thats why Musk wanted it. Its become too much of a safe space for too many extreme voices and for me the likes of Trump muddy the waters between listening to concerns AND allowing misinformed and hateful views to grow and spread.

Every politician, every single one of them is a snake oil salesman.
They are not interested in you, they are only interested in your vote.
Trump isn't listening, he's only pretending to, but that's better than being told to go away, or there is nothing to worry, you're wrong or you're just a bigot so shut up.
I avoid all social media, it's poison.
I watch golf and modelling videos on YouTube, that's all. I won't follow anyone on it with more than half million subscribers, YouTubers are trying to sell you something or influence you.
Social media is easy money for a lot of people, their opinions are not real, they are telling you something to get money from you.
It's the new dollars for jesus.

 

[Rorschach]

The militancy of the climate movement has not even begun really. To think that the actions of groups like JSO represent the more radical end of the scale is naive. They are just the beginning. "How to Blow Up a Pipeline" outlines the progression of all such protest movements back through history and how they end up becoming violent. The strategic pacifism employed by climate movements will disappear as things get more desperate.

 

[Grays_1890]

Every politician, every single one of them is a snake oil salesman.
They are not interested in you, they are only interested in your vote.
Trump isn't listening, he's only pretending to, but that's better than being told to go away, or there is nothing to worry, you're wrong or you're just a bigot so shut up.
I avoid all social media, it's poison.
I watch golf and modelling videos on YouTube, that's all. I won't follow anyone on it with more than half million subscribers, YouTubers are trying to sell you something or influence you.
Social media is easy money for a lot of people, their opinions are not real, they are telling you something to get money from you.
It's the new dollars for jesus.

Of course but I think some are selling much more dangerous lies than others, lying about the financial future and making promised that can't be kept is bad, absolutely, but lying about whose fault it is on the plight of certain demographics by blaming another is just dangerous, it makes my heart sink that kind of politics. I also don't think its solely about being thick, I think some just want someone to blame for their problems because its far more easier than taking the responsibility themselves for their struggles,

 

[P.D.]

I agree on GDP. Stupid beyond belief to be still using it but this is the way it is unfortunately.

My main point was that you can get anyone to believe anything if you hammer the message home repeatedly. A good example is crime in the US, which is well down, but everyone thinks it is out of control because this is the message coming from the right. And they are good at drumming home their message in ways the left can only stand and admire.

And on Bernie I would agree. I thought he was great, but such a risk to the status quo was never going to be allowed, including by the establishment dems. Warren was the next best choice and for one brief moment she had some momentum and then she too was removed from the picture using the power of negative messaging. At this point for the left to beat back growing facism they should borrow from the right's playbook but adapt it to their needs. They need their own populist movement maybe with a charismatic figurehead and try to somehow dominate or at least win back some of information space. This is the battle they have soundly lost to date. Twitter being the latest casualty.

I said no more free elections, not no more elections. Think Russia style elections.

I don't think that's true, the message needs to come from the right people. Generally traditional media sources are losing out, people get news from social media, podcasts, forums etc now and the right are better at using them. The dems tried to repeat the same messages continuously but they came from people that are no longer trusted like the traditional media, celebs, past government officials etc.

I don't trust Warren, she's been on an anti crypto crusade for a while now with no real justifiable reason.

I'm doubtful that things will move to Russian style elections but lets see what happens.

 

[SkipRat]

Of course but I think some are selling much more dangerous lies than others, lying about the financial future and making promised that can't be kept is bad, absolutely, but lying about whose fault it is on the plight of certain demographics by blaming another is just dangerous, it makes my heart sink that kind of politics. I also don't think its solely about being thick, I think some just want someone to blame for their problems because its far more easier than taking the responsibility themselves for their struggles

Funny, if you say the same thing about members of the BAME community you are instantly labelled a racist.

 

[Rorschach]

I don't think that's true, the message needs to come from the right people. Generally traditional media sources are losing out, people get news from social media, podcasts, forums etc now and the right are better at using them. The dems tried to repeat the same messages continuously but they came from people that are no longer trusted like the traditional media, celebs, past government officials etc.

I don't trust Warren, she's been on an anti crypto crusade for a while now with no real justifiable reason.

I'm doubtful that things will move to Russian style elections but lets see what happens.

I think we are largley in agrrement. MSM is a minor player now. More broadly though the left's message cannot be heard. The right own the megaphone. The rightwing message being pushed by Fox, the Sinclair network, the Murdochs empire, fudging Elon, bro Podcasters, targeted social media, Russian troll farms, AI bots, etc is overwhelming. Even outlets like CNN just regurgitate right-wing media talking points as their listenership is getting old and conservative. You cannot counter this deluge without building out an equivalent megaphone to be heard IMO, and that won't be easy.

What the Dems are trying to push is broadly popular, if they could be heard. Blind policy surveys show overwhelming support for democratic policies compared to the GOP policies even among Trump supporters, once they don't know which party is proposing them. And this cognitive dissonance is obvious even in this election just gone where ballot measures on abortion policies and minimum wage are approved, and then on the exact same ballot paper vote for Trump and project 2025 which will just take these away again.

Aside, Warren being against crypto is a good thing in my book. It is a waste of energy. Her policy platform for the 2020 election was brilliant IMO, but that's a whole other discussion.

 

[Kompakted]

I think there's a lot of the sort of overreaction here from those that are emotionally against Trump (rather than politically against him). The posts I'm seeing are straying into blaming voters, implying a lack of education when actually I look at it and I can fully understand why Trump not only won, but increased his vote over when he was last in power and won over demographics that were surprising, I.e. over performing expectations in female voters, and latino communities.

To understand what happened, you've got to ask not just "why are these people voting for Trump?" But "why aren't they voting for Harris?" And actually the reason they aren't voting for Harris are:
- She's an awful communicator. Some of her ramblings were almost as ATF as Biden's
- She wanted the US public to put Biden back in the WH when he was clearly cognitively unable to discharge his duties effectively and then expected everyone to buy that she represented something materially different.
- She was part of the Democrats complete balls up of the economy over the last 4 years. When Trump left office, many of these people felt much better off than they do now.
- She was also part of a complete geopolitical balls up -which started with the Biden administration's garbled and disastrous exit from Afghanistan which let the Taliban walk back into power and basically tinkled on the graves of every US and coalition soldier that had died kicking the Taliban out and keeping them out. It all went to s*** in the space of a day.
- You contrast that to Trump - he was very effective on the world geopolitical stage while he was in power. Ignore the rhetoric that comes out of his mouth and look at his actions. Getting the Arab states to normalise relations with Israel was historic and if Obama had brokered that deal it would still be talked about by some on here to this day.

So yes, I totally understand why many voted for Trump. It's about how they see the next 4 years in terms of their own lives versus how they think their lives will be under the alternative.

 

[thfcsteff]

I think we need to also accept that not everyone is articulate, comfortable speaking publicly , are intimidated or don't feel knowledgeable enough to put their head above the parapet.
Speaking for myself I call it where I see it and how I see it.
I am in no way saying pander to anyone, wrong is wrong and if you feel comfortable calling it out you should. What I feel is missing is that some can be educated to see the error in their behaviour, and for the vast majority of them it wouldn't take much.
We fudge up, we all do stuff we regret, there are things that we all do out of rage and anger that even as we do them we know are wrong.
This behaviour is not always indicative of the real person, they can be brought back into the real world.
The utter cretins that see this as their place in life, there's no hope for them, they deserve anything and everything coming to them.

Absolutely.

This is the only thing I have written about the past week outside here. I generally avoid "public" comment (I see this forum differently i.e. as our own group).

"What a week...my conclusion (after allowing my various emotions to run their course)...is that this is happening regardless. I need to put my energy into continuing to be the best 'me' I can. I need to continue trying my best to be kind to everyone -everyone!- possible, because sometimes people don't know a mistake until they've made it, and getting angry about it won't change the consequences of those...it doesn't mean I will tolerate racism, sexism, prejudice and hate, and it doesn't mean I'll ever allow myself to be pushed around by anyone who tries to bully, no, what it means is I have to make sure who I am is not compromised by events and times which are already in process. That is not to say that if there's a fight to be had it shouldn't be had; of course! But seeking one that will ultimately end in defeat as it's consequence will change nothing about the bigger motions, is wasted energy. And we need to be smart with ours. I understand my privilege. I understand this is an easier path for me to take than many others whose lives are immediately impacted (even if only by the palpable spectre of fear). But I can only control what I can control; I will
continue to do my best (as I feel I always have) to both acknowledge and empathize with them wherever humanly possible.
Resisting division is the hardest of actions at moments like this, but it is truthfully the ONLY action which could lead to the world perhaps wrestling back control of itself from the 2 -no, 1- percent.
I'm going to do my best (with the occasional dip into my VENT playlist!!!)
Be kind, stick to your beliefs, stand up for those you always stood up for, try to enjoy life whenever you can.
Be well..."

 

[thfcsteff]

I think there's a lot of the sort of overreaction here from those that are emotionally against Trump (rather than politically against him). The posts I'm seeing are straying into blaming voters, implying a lack of education when actually I look at it and I can fully understand why Trump not only won, but increased his vote over when he was last in power and won over demographics that were surprising, I.e. over performing expectations in female voters, and latino communities.

To understand what happened, you've got to ask not just "why are these people voting for Trump?" But "why aren't they voting for Harris?" And actually the reason they aren't voting for Harris are:
- She's an awful communicator. Some of her ramblings were almost as ATF as Biden's
- She wanted the US public to put Biden back in the WH when he was clearly cognitively unable to discharge his duties effectively and then expected everyone to buy that she represented something materially different.
- She was part of the Democrats complete balls up of the economy over the last 4 years. When Trump left office, many of these people felt much better off than they do now.
- She was also part of a complete geopolitical balls up -which started with the Biden administration's garbled and disastrous exit from Afghanistan which let the Taliban walk back into power and basically tinkled on the graves of every US and coalition soldier that had died kicking the Taliban out and keeping them out. It all went to s*** in the space of a day.
- You contrast that to Trump - he was very effective on the world geopolitical stage while he was in power. Ignore the rhetoric that comes out of his mouth and look at his actions. Getting the Arab states to normalise relations with Israel was historic and if Obama had brokered that deal it would still be talked about by some on here to this day.

So yes, I totally understand why many voted for Trump. It's about how they see the next 4 years in terms of their own lives versus how they think their lives will be under the alternative.

With the greatest of respects, IMO the bold line above does not offer ANY room for human response, let alone a wider understanding of the potential ramifications. Personally, I think a two-week amnesty for people to recalibrate is vital (especially those - like me- who live in America).

As for the rest of your post, again with the greatest of respects, this is not many people's first rodeo.
I'll speak for myself.
I understand what happened and see all the angles and all the margins.
I saw them in 2016, and I saw them pre-Brexit.
The democrats problems are theirs to fix. I've seen it and known it for a long time - as many have. But it is ultimately theirs to do.

A reminder. The country that first aggressively showed it's hand with regards to not taking the concerns, fears and worries of some citizens seriously, was Britain. The 'leader'? Cameron. It appears the only people who actually learned how to manifest those people into a movement which would get them into power, were Farage, Bannon, the US Christian right, and by proxy Trump. One thing I've never called Trump is an idiot, because he isn't. In fact, this latest result shows he is far from it, given how he now has no checks or balances.

As for the last bold face line above, I agree 100%. Where many will get caught is that on paper at least, Project 2025 will shaft most of them, as will Trump's projected tariff war.

Another thing to mention (and in support of your conclusion) is that many people will prosper in the short term. The losers in this outcome are immigrants, women, people of colour, gay people, trans people, anyone with a semi-socialist view of society, people who need healthcare to remain affordable, and that's without getting into the consequences of US populism for many other countries. Beside the policies, anyone in those categories can look forward to a hot spell of time having to endure a rambunctious and 'empowered' group of people who feel they've been given a mandate to behave like racist, sexist tossers (note, I have NOT said 'all Trump supporters')...as I posted in a response above, my mission in life remains to be as open and inclusive of everyone as possible. But as I also said, if the fight is brought directly in front of me, I won't shy away and I'll stand every inch of my turf. The battle is to remain as undivided as a people as possible, whilst also not allowing such an approach to be perceived as 'weak'.

Appreciate the discussion opportunity as always...

 

[Kompakted]

With the greatest of respects, IMO the bold line above does not offer ANY room for human response, let alone a wider understanding of the potential ramifications. Personally, I think a two-week amnesty for people to recalibrate is vital (especially those - like me- who live in America).

As for the rest of your post, again with the greatest of respects, this is not many people's first rodeo.
I'll speak for myself.
I understand what happened and see all the angles and all the margins.
I saw them in 2016, and I saw them pre-Brexit.
The democrats problems are theirs to fix. I've seen it and known it for a long time - as many have. But it is ultimately theirs to do.

A reminder. The country that first aggressively showed it's hand with regards to not taking the concerns, fears and worries of some citizens seriously, was Britain. The 'leader'? Cameron. It appears the only people who actually learned how to manifest those people into a movement which would get them into power, were Farage, Bannon, the US Christian right, and by proxy Trump. One thing I've never called Trump is an idiot, because he isn't. In fact, this latest result shows he is far from it, given how he now has no checks or balances.

As for the last bold face line above, I agree 100%. Where many will get caught is that on paper at least, Project 2025 will shaft most of them, as will Trump's projected tariff war.

Another thing to mention (and in support of your conclusion) is that many people will prosper in the short term. The losers in this outcome are immigrants, women, people of colour, gay people, trans people, anyone with a semi-socialist view of society, people who need healthcare to remain affordable, and that's without getting into the consequences of US populism for many other countries. Beside the policies, anyone in those categories can look forward to a hot spell of time having to endure a rambunctious and 'empowered' group of people who feel they've been given a mandate to behave like racist, sexist tossers (note, I have NOT said 'all Trump supporters')...as I posted in a response above, my mission in life remains to be as open and inclusive of everyone as possible. But as I also said, if the fight is brought directly in front of me, I won't shy away and I'll stand every inch of my turf. The battle is to remain as undivided as a people as possible, whilst also not allowing such an approach to be perceived as 'weak'.

Appreciate the discussion opportunity as always...

I think the emotiveness referred to is the whole "this is the end of democracy" Etc. It clearly isn't, Trump will be gone for good in 4 years time.

As for the rest of it, Trump won off a much broader coalition than expected and than he did last time. I think there's a tendency by some to label not only white, right-wing/conservative people as racist and then also to (in my view) racially stereotype a whole bunch of "non-white/western" people into a lump of "you would all be better off under a left government/you lot are all left,".

It happens in this country when the same people were desperate to replace a young, ethnic minority PM leading a highly diverse government with "pale, stale and male" leading a largely white, middle aged government. Then they said tory members would never vote for Badenoch.

I've even seen a comment on here along the lines of "Americans will never vote for someone with a penis". People of all persuasion will vote for anything if its the best choice. Would you vote for Hilary Clinton or Kamala Harris? They were dismal candidates.

There's just so much projection of people's own anger, prejudices and other emotions onto other people in current politics. That goes for all "sides", but I feel like its a particularly acute issue on "the left left", who in particular have reduced the words "racist, fascist and dictator" to a very low bar in arguments.

 

[SpiderSpurs]

I think the emotiveness referred to is the whole "this is the end of democracy" Etc. It clearly isn't, Trump will be gone for good in 4 years time.

As for the rest of it, Trump won off a much broader coalition than expected and than he did last time. I think there's a tendency by some to label not only white, right-wing/conservative people as racist and then also to (in my view) racially stereotype a whole bunch of "non-white/western" people into a lump of "you would all be better off under a left government/you lot are all left,".

It happens in this country when the same people were desperate to replace a young, ethnic minority PM leading a highly diverse government with "pale, stale and male" leading a largely white, middle aged government. Then they said tory members would never vote for Badenoch.

I've even seen a comment on here along the lines of "Americans will never vote for someone with a penis". People of all persuasion will vote for anything if its the best choice. Would you vote for Hilary Clinton or Kamala Harris? They were dismal candidates.

There's just so much projection of people's own anger, prejudices and other emotions onto other people in current politics. That goes for all "sides", but I feel like its a particularly acute issue on "the left left", who in particular have reduced the words "racist, fascist and dictator" to a very low bar in arguments.

I wouldn't be so sure.