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Paris

NWND said:
Religion grew powerful because at the time when the major religions grew, most people's lives were c*** and it's a bit s*** to think, i'm going to live this short c*** life then die and that's it. It's a way of rationalising that there's something better to come and a way of coping with the concept of death.

It's no surprise for me that the poorest countries in the world are the most religious and that Islam's strongholds are in some of the most poverty-ridden nations in the world.

Goes for Christianity too though, everywhere in the western world, Church attendances are dropping drastically. The number of young priests and ministers coming through has dropped to a trickle. The remaining strongholds of Christian practice are in the poorest neighbourhoods of the west, South & Central America, Africa etc.

The strength of religion goes hand in hand with poverty and suffering IMO.

There maybe the odd well-off believer, but its rare compared to the masses.

I agree with Dorothy that a lot of the lashing out is about power and control. We see this even in non-extremist or non-terrorism events.

Honour killings, forced marriages, the trojan horse incident.

These are mostly perpetrated by older first-generation immigrants into the West. They can't handle their children growing up westernised, getting a western education and mixing with or even having relationships with westerners. They lash out, because they feel threatened and disrespected.

The young muslims now attracted to extremism are probably in my view, as i've said, dissaffected youths that feel cut off from both their families and from the western society they live in. They're caught between the human need to socialise with their peers and their parents and grand parents pulling them in the opposite direction.
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Great post mate.
 
Bonsaiboy said:
I think that does a disservice to Mohammed. The Arabs were a divided people, many different tribes always fighting amongst themselves, and, obviously influenced by Jewish and Christian teachings he'd come across, he preached the idea of one GHod to them instead of the many and managed to convince many people to follow him and fight for him, using the power of his personality and lyrical quality of his verse. It was actually the people that came after him that really created Islam, mythologised Mohammed, and used it as a force as one of the greatest expansions and conquest in human history. In these times, it was either conquer or be conquered and it's wrong to judge them by today's standard. And Religion was also at the centre of things because the concept of atheism barely existed.

Arabs are very proud of this period and what was achieved by them and justly so and it partly explains their reverence for Mohammed and why they take such exception to disrespect shown to him. He's not just their Jesus but their Winston Churchill and Shakespeare too.
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Much of the convincing was done by an army, by the sword. It was divide and conquer. Long before the 'West' set off on what tend to be only mentioned as Crusades. I'm not suggesting his concept, ideas, control were not wonderful. They are still going strong today ;) It is very easy to suggest the 'Arabs' are proud but I wonder if they were back in the day when they were 'forced' to obey? When I hear collective nouns like 'Arabs' I'm reminded quickly of a large group of varying tribes still killing each other every day. Responsible for far more Islamic blood than the West ever will be. It is not quite as glorious as people might make out is it? Sunni? Shia? Even factions within each. All looking to settle scores that go back to the time of Mohammed and before. With regards to 'lyrical quality of his verse' are you relating to the Hadiths (Mohammed's alleged sayings) or the Qu'ran which is directly the word of Allah as passed on (conveniently) to Mohammed? Many scholars can't even decide when the Qu'ran was actually put together.
 
DTA said:
I would be interested in the studies of that, not the left handedness. As religions have had such a big influence on where we are now, both good and bad, could it not be argued that even some atheists are influenced moralistically by the teachings in the scriptures, even if this is on a subconscious level.

Not sure if I'm explaining myself well.

Um... Athiest takes a what he views a decision based on his own morals, but these morals are also based on history, society law etc which have obviously been influenced by religion over the years???

How do these studies account for that

The above (all of it) is more of a question rather than a statement
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That assumes religion as the starting point for everything - one of the fundamental differences between atheists and religious groups.

The opposite is more likely true - religion was influenced by the actions (good and bad) of man and the need to create a system for everyone to live by similar ideals
 
scaramanga said:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Moral-Minds-Nature-Designed-Universal/dp/0349118094

I'm sure there are less than legal methods of obtaining the book if you don't want to line the pockets of a filthy atheist!

In order to control for years of exposure to religion, he has a protected South American tribe who have had minimal contact with the rest of the world and have no religion take the same tests and their results are the same as the rest of ours.
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Thanks I think I will try to give that a read.

I don't believe atheists are evil or 'filthy' as you say, everyone has the right to believe in what they want.I take exception to some atheists who believe that they intellectually superior to those with faith, and ram their belief down any bodies throat, but I also find tiresome when those of a particular faith believe that they are moralistically superior to those of other faiths or no faith. Live and let live.
 
monkeybarry said:
That assumes religion as the starting point for everything - one of the fundamental differences between atheists and religious groups.

The opposite is more likely true - religion was influenced by the actions (good and bad) of man and the need to create a system for everyone to live by similar ideals
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Interesting perspective, but how far back does religion/faith go?
 
DTA said:
Thanks I think I will try to give that a read.

I don't believe atheists are evil or 'filthy' as you say, everyone has the right to believe in what they want.I take exception to some atheists who believe that they intellectually superior to those with faith, and ram their belief down any bodies throat, but I also find tiresome when those of a particular faith believe that they are moralistically superior to those of other faiths or no faith. Live and let live.
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We may not be intellectually superior (although if pushed, I'd say we almost certainly are) but we are, by definition, better at applying logic/reasoning and judging possibilities based on presented evidence.
 
scaramanga said:
We may not be intellectually superior (although if pushed, I'd say we almost certainly are) but we are, by definition, better at applying logic/reasoning and judging possibilities based on presented evidence.
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If you were born 3000 years ago you would not be following catholicism or Islam because they didn't exist. More than likely you would be worshipping some form of pagan GHod if you were religious. At that time if i were to ask you about your religion you would tell me that your pagan gods were real.

Why were they real then and not now, because you would have been brainwashed from an early age to believe they were real just as people are nowadays with catholicism and Islam etc. Think about it 3000 years ago you had you been religious you would have worshipped another GHod, doesn't that tell you enough.

Anyone who lives their life based on books written 2000 years ago really needs to take a long hard think about this. A man turned water into wine, cured the incurable, died and then came back to life, went to heaven on a horse etc. If you believe all of that do you believe in rumplestiltskin, do you believe in ogres, how about werewolves or vampires? The only reason you don't is because you've been taught from a young age they are make believe. You weren't taught that about religion because religion was created for one thing only, to control you.

I went to catholic school, taught by nuns, had to go to church etc, i once challenged an RE teacher on the question about Adam and Eve and Darwin. You should have seen the anger in his face, he knew i had him, all he could come out with was the bible was full of parables and we are meant to take from it what we need. Needless to say i failed RE, but left school with an open mind :lol: :-"

btw i dont believe in Darwin's theory either 8-[
 
RomanzoCriminale said:
If you were born 3000 years ago you would not be following catholicism or Islam because they didn't exist. More than likely you would be worshipping some form of pagan GHod if you were religious. At that time if i were to ask you about your religion you would tell me that your pagan gods were real.

Why were they real then and not now, because you would have been brainwashed from an early age to believe they were real just as people are nowadays with catholicism and Islam etc. Think about it 3000 years ago you had you been religious you would have worshipped another GHod, doesn't that tell you enough.

Anyone who lives their life based on books written 2000 years ago really needs to take a long hard think about this. A man turned water into wine, cured the incurable, died and then came back to life, went to heaven on a horse etc. If you believe all of that do you believe in rumplestiltskin, do you believe in ogres, how about werewolves or vampires? The only reason you don't is because you've been taught from a young age they are make believe. You weren't taught that about religion because religion was created for one thing only, to control you.

I went to catholic school, taught by nuns, had to go to church etc, i once challenged an RE teacher on the question about Adam and Eve and Darwin. You should have seen the anger in his face, he knew i had him, all he could come out with was the bible was full of parables and we are meant to take from it what we need. Needless to say i failed RE, but left school with an open mind :lol: :-"

btw i dont believe in Darwin's theory either 8-[
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I was brought up to believe in all that fairy tale nonsense.

Then I applied logic and reasoning so I no longer believe it. Nothing to do with upbringing, everything to do with simply freeing one's own mind.
 
DTA said:
Thanks do you know much about these movements? Their origins, backers, religious
Differences?
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Yes I do. David Commins wrote an excellent book on it. The Wahabi mission and Saudi Arabia. Available as a free pdf if you look around. For me it was a definitive read. He isn't a muslin and very impartial so even better when I was researching the mindset of Al Qaeda back in the day.
 
I was brought up in a COE primary and secondary school. I was confirmed at 12 which meant I chose to express my belief in Christianity. Now don't worry as you might know im not a 'bible basher' as scara might say but I believe in GHod and the bible and have prayed a lot lately after my diagnosis especially.

Now I would never force my opinions on anyone or claim that they are stupid or wrong for believing in their religion or choosing to be an atheist.

Finally, I think we can all agree that the sooner these scumbags are off our streets the better but I fear this may never happen.
 
Roy1983 said:
I was brought up in a COE primary and secondary school. I was confirmed at 12 which meant I chose to express my belief in Christianity. Now don't worry as you might know im not a 'bible basher' as scara might say but I believe in GHod and the bible and have prayed a lot lately after my diagnosis especially.

Now I would never force my opinions on anyone or claim that they are stupid or wrong for believing in their religion or choosing to be an atheist.

Finally, I think we can all agree that the sooner these scumbags are off our streets the better but I fear this may never happen.
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I think this a point that a lot of uber-atheists don't understand. Religion will exist as long as man does. Christianity and Islam will still exist in 10,000 years. People will always believe despite what scientific facts come to light - just before the world ends, they'll still be Jehovah's Witnesses knocking on people's door like the the ones who did on mine this morning. Religion isn't the problem, nutters going around shooting and beheading people is. Good result tonight in Belgium at least. Makes a good statement. Need to have a few "Deaths on the Rock" to let the nutters know we won't tolerate this nonsense.
 
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