• Dear Guest, Please note that adult content is not permitted on this forum. We have had our Google ads disabled at times due to some posts that were found from some time ago. Please do not post adult content and if you see any already on the forum, please report the post so that we can deal with it. Adult content is allowed in the glory hole - you will have to request permission to access it. Thanks, scara

OMT *** Tottenham v Brighton

Diamond Lights said:
Is our squad worse than Leicester? Man U? Hell even West Ham? I don't think so, we have some deadwood and have not invested appropriately for years (oh hello 'painful rebuild' - Mr Pochettino) but we have Son, Kane, Ndombele, Reguilon, and a supporting cast who elsewhere have showed some impressive returns (Bergwijn, Moura, Rodon, Hjobjerg) along with some basic PL players who can do a job.

Putting this all on the players entirely absolves Jose of responsibility and i don't think that's fair. We have enough attacking talent to muster more than 1/2 shots a game.
Click to expand...

I don't think it's worse (but I'm nothing more than an armchair fan) but I don't think they're title challengers either. At the moment, it's difficult to look past Liverpool and City for the title. I'd also argue that Man U's defeats at home against us and Sheffield were probably just as bad as ours last night. If you look at the form guide, nobody, apart from City, seems to be able to put together a decent string of results. It's a bit strange at this stage of the season, by the way.

I agree with your assessment of the squad in terms of ability but, unfortunately, nobody here knows about our players' personalities. From where I stand, that's where the problem is. I'd even go so far as to say that we're missing Lo Celso or Lamella as much as we miss Kane, if only because of their attitude. Also, I'm reluctant to criticise Mourinho's man-management skills because a lot of his ex-players seem to have a lot of time for him. A couple of weeks ago, I read that if he was offered a choice, Eto'o said he'd rather work with Mourinho than Guardiola. A lot of Bayern players don't seem to have fond memories of their time with Guardiola, by the way... So, the public figure and the guy you see every day on the training pitch can be very different characters. I assume it's just the same for players.

As far as tactics are concerned, however, I'm not absolving him of anything. He saw the goals dry up and he tried to put up something different, with three players at the back but it's obviously not working at all. I'll give him credit for trying to sort out our problems and I'd also point out that we have been leaking in goals for almost two years now but the fact remains that performances such as yesterday's are unacceptable. Playing so many games probably doesn't help either but, again, it's certainly not an excuse. Neither is Kane's injury, since it happens every year.

If I had to guess, I'd say something happened at half-time against Liverpool. Maybe it's the alledged bust-up with Aurier. Maybe he put too much emphasis on this game and it's back-firing now. Maybe morale is low. Quite frankly, I don't know. However, it's absolutely his job to get the results and he isn't doing that at the moment. I can't see what sacking him now would achieve, except give the players even more power. It doesn't look good for him at the moment but, then again, two months ago, it was a completely different story...
 
DeanoAustin said:
That's a great post. I don't agree with some of it but you've articulated your argument very well.

The only thing I'll say is that I don't think any fan thinks "we've got to be challenging for the title or the manager should be fired". I did think we could challenge this season but the fact we aren't isn't a dealbreaker for me. With the results Jose has achieved, I'd be quite happy if I could see a team progressing and playing entertaining football. But what I'm seeing is a side with the creativity being knocked out of them, playing with fear and with no discernable attacking plan beyond hoping that Sonny and Kane can produce moments of brilliance on the counter. Last night, I also saw a lack of effort and belief. Allied to the fact that Dele has been cast aside and now Aurier too and all the signs are alarming.

Mourinho doesn't play a brand of football I believe in. He has previous for losing dressing rooms and the signs are there that it's happening again. So not being in the title race isn't the problem for me, its' everything else. Once Mourinho stops getting results, he's poison to a football club. I fear we're reaching that point.
Click to expand...

I don't think anybody's enjoying our football. We had a couple of exciting performances (Man U away, Villa away last season...) but when you're not winning, it's extremely frustrating. On the flip side, it makes it easier to judge his performance as a manager: if the results are average, you can get rid of him without losing any sleep over it. It was a much tougher decision with Pochettino (although I believe it was the right one).

The players' attitude isn't very encouraging, I'll give you that but it's difficult to have a definitve opinion on that from the outside. His psychological work revolves around building a 'siege mentality' (same as Ferguson), so he needs to make himself the bad guy. It looks like most people are in on it now, so maybe he needs to change his tune. Whether he's able to is another matter but he did manage to get something out of Ndombele.

Aside from that, it should also be said that Levy is becoming part of the problem. His reluctance to sell players for a knock-out price has probably cost us a few points over the past few seasons and he seems to be in awe of Mourinho. Unless we go on a losing streak of massive proportion, nothing is going to change soon. I just hope that, if Mourinho turns out to be failure, he'll be able to recognise his mistake and do what must be done. That said, I hope we beat Chelsea on Thursday, just for the fun of it!
 
Benny_Lad said:
The top of the table stuff was an anomaly like you say. No different to Everton, Leicester or Chelsea topping the table (I may also throw in Southampton!).

But....I think we are watching a team that could finish anywhere between 4th and 10th. Jose's job/remit is to make it 4th, If DL is insisting on 4th, then he needs to judge whether Jose can still deliver that, or if a swift change can maybe re-route the ship towards that.

The way the team are heading at the moment - I think its likely we finish 6th/7th/8th. I think the players are capable of better but I think the way they are being setup with no attacking strategy is the reason for the struggle. I think DL (with compensation probably in mind) will persist with Jose. More so I think he would scoff at any talk of getting rid.

Further to the above it looks like the heat on Bale this morning will take the heat off Jose for a while.
Click to expand...

Couldn't agree more. If he's lost the dressing room, the writing is on the wall but otherwise, there's still a chance to put together another strong run of results. It's a weird season: Arsenal were a laughing stock one month ago and now, they could arguably be challenging for a CL spot. What happens next depends to a large extent on Mourinho's relationship with his players and I don't trust the press to give me a clear picture of that.

I just Levy will have the guts to pull the trigger at the end of the season if the results aren't there.
 
billyiddo said:
We don't need to be title challengers for people to be happy, just to be playing at our level and some sign of a plan would be a start
Click to expand...

Come on, you're not entirely fair, here. I'm pretty sure I've read a post or two from you (although I could be wrong, that's not an accusation) saying that's since Mourinho is supposed to be a proven winner, you expect his team to be at least challenging for honours.

Regardless, we're football fans: we always want more. Otherwise, Ardiles would've stayed as manager for 20 years! It's even more true now that we've had a taste of real success. In any case, I know I'd have taken a couple of ugly performances in order to win the title back in 2016...
 
Mr Gogolak said:
Come on, you're not entirely fair, here. I'm pretty sure I've read a post or two from you (although I could be wrong, that's not an accusation) saying that's since Mourinho is supposed to be a proven winner, you expect his team to be at least challenging for honours.

Regardless, we're football fans: we always want more. Otherwise, Ardiles would've stayed as manager for 20 years! It's even more true now that we've had a taste of real success. In any case, I know I'd have taken a couple of ugly performances in order to win the title back in 2016...
Click to expand...

Obviously that is where we need to be eventually but, speaking for myself, im not calling for a change because we aren't title challengers right now its because I see no progress on the pitch and don't think we're heading in the right direction.
 
billyiddo said:
Obviously that is where we need to be eventually but, speaking for myself, im not calling for a change because we aren't title challengers right now its because I see no progress on the pitch and don't think we're heading in the right direction.
Click to expand...

My mistake! Although, in a way, Mourinho does back himself into a corner here. With the kind of football he wants his team to play, you have to be challenging for the title to get something positive out of it...
 
Mr Gogolak said:
It's easy to allow yourself a knee-jerk reaction after such a pathetic performance and, to be honest, I was just as disappointed as the next guy after having to watch that last night.

Having said that, I've been on (and off) this board since the late 90s and I can't even recall the number of times I've read people asking for the manager's head or demanding a complete clear-out after yet another miserable performance.

For what it's worth, in my opinion, this group of players was never good enough to challenge for the title. We were top of the league for a couple of weeks, but only because Liverpool and City had to deal with injuries and couldn't get the results they were looking for. I don't really care about Mourinho's persona or his reputation. For me, that was never going to happen. We're still very much a work in progress and, despite what happened yesterday (which was completely unacceptable) we can't afford to lose the plot.

This squad reminds me of the one we had in the mid-90s. It's full of over-rated players who never own up to their own shortcomings. That, in my opinion, is a lot worse than having an inept manager at the helm. Unfortunately, nobody moves 10 or 15 players in one transfer window. It just doesn't happen. The closest thing I've seen was us buying half a dozen players with the money from Bale's transfer and that wasn't a huge success.

Curiously, I'd say that the most important thing at the moment for us is continuity. We need to identify quality players, buy them and stick with them, at least for a couple of seasons. We haven't done so badly this season from that point of view: Reguillon and Hojbjerg have proved to be decent additions. Unfortunately, moving on average players like Sanchez, Davies or Sissoko will take a lot of time so, unless we sell one of our top players, I can't see where the money for another massive investment in the squad is coming from.

We look very poor at the moment but I can't really think of another manager who'd turn us into title challengers with that very same squad of players. Plus, changing managers every 15 months or so doesn't make a club like ours a very appealing proposition. We might as well give Mourinho until the end of the season. In April, we'll know whether there's still a chance of making the Top 4 and/or winning something. If the answer is no, it'll give us a couple of months to look for a suitable replacement.
Click to expand...

Top post and one i agree with100%.
 
Mr Gogolak said:
It's easy to allow yourself a knee-jerk reaction after such a pathetic performance and, to be honest, I was just as disappointed as the next guy after having to watch that last night.

Having said that, I've been on (and off) this board since the late 90s and I can't even recall the number of times I've read people asking for the manager's head or demanding a complete clear-out after yet another miserable performance.

For what it's worth, in my opinion, this group of players was never good enough to challenge for the title. We were top of the league for a couple of weeks, but only because Liverpool and City had to deal with injuries and couldn't get the results they were looking for. I don't really care about Mourinho's persona or his reputation. For me, that was never going to happen. We're still very much a work in progress and, despite what happened yesterday (which was completely unacceptable) we can't afford to lose the plot.

This squad reminds me of the one we had in the mid-90s. It's full of over-rated players who never own up to their own shortcomings. That, in my opinion, is a lot worse than having an inept manager at the helm. Unfortunately, nobody moves 10 or 15 players in one transfer window. It just doesn't happen. The closest thing I've seen was us buying half a dozen players with the money from Bale's transfer and that wasn't a huge success.

Curiously, I'd say that the most important thing at the moment for us is continuity. We need to identify quality players, buy them and stick with them, at least for a couple of seasons. We haven't done so badly this season from that point of view: Reguillon and Hojbjerg have proved to be decent additions. Unfortunately, moving on average players like Sanchez, Davies or Sissoko will take a lot of time so, unless we sell one of our top players, I can't see where the money for another massive investment in the squad is coming from.

We look very poor at the moment but I can't really think of another manager who'd turn us into title challengers with that very same squad of players. Plus, changing managers every 15 months or so doesn't make a club like ours a very appealing proposition. We might as well give Mourinho until the end of the season. In April, we'll know whether there's still a chance of making the Top 4 and/or winning something. If the answer is no, it'll give us a couple of months to look for a suitable replacement.
Click to expand...
Disappointed enough myself to stay away from this board for a while both after this and the previous games. No doubt we were poor.

I agree with your overall excellent post. I'll just add that our team is rather good with everyone fit. But the drop off when we're missing key players is huge. Yesterday we definitely missed some of the key players that at least at times can make us a very good side.

That doesn't excuse the first half performance in particular. That's just not good enough however one slices it, but I do think we can still turn this around.
 
braineclipse said:
Disappointed enough myself to stay away from this board for a while both after this and the previous games. No doubt we were poor.

I agree with your overall excellent post. I'll just add that our team is rather good with everyone fit. But the drop off when we're missing key players is huge. Yesterday we definitely missed some of the key players that at least at times can make us a very good side.

That doesn't excuse the first half performance in particular. That's just not good enough however one slices it, but I do think we can still turn this around.
Click to expand...
One of the odd things is the seeming lack of commitment from the players. Yes, our defensive assets are not as strong as we'd like, and we have injuries (as do most clubs), and our Main Man Kane was out, but it didn't appear that there was the will to compete. And even with the missing players we SHOULD be beating Brighton.
 
90291Spur said:
One of the odd things is the seeming lack of commitment from the players. Yes, our defensive assets are not as strong as we'd like, and we have injuries (as do most clubs), and our Main Man Kane was out, but it didn't appear that there was the will to compete. And even with the missing players we SHOULD be beating Brighton.
Click to expand...
Thought we saw commitment towards the end at least, but too often we've been good for only parts of games. The first half yesterday was shambolic.

The result is one thing, I can deal with losing if we play well, but the performance was far from good enough.

Huge job to turn this around now.
 
braineclipse said:
Disappointed enough myself to stay away from this board for a while both after this and the previous games. No doubt we were poor.

I agree with your overall excellent post. I'll just add that our team is rather good with everyone fit. But the drop off when we're missing key players is huge. Yesterday we definitely missed some of the key players that at least at times can make us a very good side.

That doesn't excuse the first half performance in particular. That's just not good enough however one slices it, but I do think we can still turn this around.
Click to expand...

It's a difficult jigsaw to solve. Most teams only play with one out and out striker. Kane and Son are pretty much untouchable, even when they go through a barren patch. It's impossible (and it would cost silly money) to get someone to compete with them for a starting place. Ergo, as soon as one of them is out (which happens every season) with find ourselves without a plan B.

At least, you could argue that it's a nice problem to have. The lack of creativity in midfield, on the other hand, is quite depressing. Lo Celso is the only player we have (apart from Kane) to looks like he could play a killer pass. The rest have their uses but we're sorely lacking there. Then again, nine months ago, everyone was calling for us to get a decent defensive midfielder (which we got). We need more time... it's the only bright spot at the moment: we've made some decent deals this summer and we've addressed the most glaring problems within the squad.
 
braineclipse said:
But the drop off when we're missing key players is huge. Yesterday we definitely missed some of the key players that at least at times can make us a very good side.
Click to expand...
The reason for this is quite simple. Whenever someone is missing, there's a change in formation and tactics. Liverpool and City don't do that. Every position has its role, and whoever plays there, plays that role. Makes it a lot easier. We don't have a set formation or style of play (other than defending, which we also aren't very good at).
 
Kandi1977 said:
The reason for this is quite simple. Whenever someone is missing, there's a change in formation and tactics. Liverpool and City don't do that. Every position has its role, and whoever plays there, plays that role. Makes it a lot easier. We don't have a set formation or style of play (other than defending, which we also aren't very good at).
Click to expand...

Completely. Another downside of Jose's 'whack it long' tactics is that when you dont have Harry who can make the ball stick, the opposition pick the ball up and come back at you quicker. Its why I'm so fearful of Thurs and the City game. The City game in particular could be a humiliation when you also look at the way whch they're playing at the moment. At least if you try to retain possession a little but are missing your CF, you reduce hte time that the other team has the ball and therefore chances which they can create
 
Kandi1977 said:
The reason for this is quite simple. Whenever someone is missing, there's a change in formation and tactics. Liverpool and City don't do that. Every position has its role, and whoever plays there, plays that role. Makes it a lot easier. We don't have a set formation or style of play (other than defending, which we also aren't very good at).
Click to expand...
Reason might be simple enough, but I don't see an easy solution.

I think the reason why Mourinho is chopping and changing is because our squad is lacking balance and like for like replacements.

Won't list them all (again), but they're severe enough. We can't just replace Reguilon, Kane, Aurier, Dier, Lo Celso and/or Ndombele and expect to play the same way when the players coming in bring very different strengths and weaknesses along with a lower overall quality.
 
braineclipse said:
Reason might be simple enough, but I don't see an easy solution.

I think the reason why Mourinho is chopping and changing is because our squad is lacking balance and like for like replacements.

Won't list them all (again), but they're severe enough. We can't just replace Reguilon, Kane, Aurier, Dier, Lo Celso and/or Ndombele and expect to play the same way when the players coming in bring very different strengths and weaknesses along with a lower overall quality.
Click to expand...

Everything derives from our recruitment ( and sales ) policy which has been almost invariably abysmal for years now. It hasn't been the money spent it has been the quality of recruits and an unwillingness to sell players and devise a programme of evolution.
 
Pirate55 said:
Everything derives from our recruitment ( and sales ) policy which has been almost invariably abysmal for years now. It hasn't been the money spent it has been the quality of recruits and an unwillingness to sell players and devise a programme of evolution.
Click to expand...
Quality of recruitment for sure. After being very good early on under Pochettino with signings like Alli and Dier it all started going downhill.

The way I see it Wanyama was the last real success. After that Janssen, Nkoudou, Sissoko, Sanches, Foyth, Llorrente, Aurier, Moura, Clarke, Ndombele, Lo Celso, Sessegnon.

I fudging adore Ndombele, but not a short term hit in that list. Ignoring the last window because it's still somewhat early days the only one of those I'm truly happy to have in the squad is Aurier and that took years.

Mostly a list of much of a muchness type players, players that would also be hard to shift as we've seen. And players that haven't solved underlying problems with the squad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back