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*** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur VS Some Gauche Middle Eastern Oil Money ***

was the Stoke performance really that good?

We were 'good' but it was more the case of Stoke being really that bad. Which they have continued to be, see them losing to West Ham at the weekend.

Everyone gets carried away with Moyes sorting West Ham out, but honestly Stoke would struggle against the Dog and Duck 11 right now...
 
We haven't really clicked into gear yet this season (yet we still have a striker with 12 goals before x-mas, and are only a point off top 4, in a season we're playing all matches away from home essentially). We were fantastic from x-mas onwards last season, especially at White Hart Lane. This season we've missed key players from that team through injury, and have had to rotate the team in general a whole lot more than we did back then. We also had just that bit of luck in games which we don't have now. Palace away, for instance - not a particularly great match by us, but a great Eriksen shot, and we won. Isolated not a very good match, but since it continued our run, it just accumulated into that narrative.

Having said that, I don't think we've been particularly poor this season at all. We've been slow and cumbersome in a few matches, but I think we've overall been playing pretty well. You simply can't expect us to steamroll teams on a weekly basis like we did at The Lane at the tail end of last season. It was a momentum thing, it was The Lane, the supporters, the belief, the ... everything went for us. It hasn't so far this season, but that's to be expected.

Our first half against City was quite poor, but we were only a goal down. In the second half we were better than them until they scored their second. From there it was always going to get tough. Nothing to cry about, they're a great side (and they should be given their expenditure), in fantastic form. Had we shown a bit more belief, maybe we could've gotten something out of it.

Talk of Poch having taken us as far as he can is just ... I don't know what to say, really. If you can't see long term aspect of this project, and what he's trying to do, and have so nearly managed to do, then, well. I think the new stadium will be a massive lift for the club. It'll maybe take a season or two to get comfortable there (so please be patient, yeah?), but we'll get there. The arrows are all pointing in one direction, in my opinion, we simply need to accept that we aren't going to hammer teams week in and out in the Premier League, let alone the league leaders with what is it now, 15 wins out of 16?

This season was always going to be a transition season, an oddball with playing at fudging Wembley, we all talked about this and agreed more or less before the start of the season that this season would be tough, so think back to that now - I know we didn't play City at Wembley, but it plays into the whole spirit of the team, not playing at your home, supporters not feeling at home being less vocal, all the little things that are odd about Wembley and not having a ground of your own.

We're coming good! Have faith. Poch got this. :D
 
Ok so slaughtering Liverpool?
He said 'despite the odd good result' - that obviously being one. Do you think we've played well in general this season? Its good to see that we can grind out a result when not firing on all cylinders, but 'patchy' is a fair assessment of our overall performance so far this season.....
 
I have these matches listed as pretty good to very good so far this season. Burnley at home we really should've won, but naively conceded at the end. West Ham away could've been a hammering if we didn't get a stupid red card. West Brom at home, we dominated from start to finish, unlucky not to score more, although we were flying, we were the better side. I also thought we did more than enough away to Leicester, unlucky not to win (granted we did start slow). The last three before City (a) were all comfortable wins, can't expect more.

Burnley (h)
Everton (a)
Dortmund (h)
West Ham (a)
Apoel (a)
Huddersfield (a)
Real (a)
Liverpool (h)
Real (h)
Dortmund (a)
West Brom (h)
Leicester (a)
Apoel (h)
Stoke (h)
Brighton (h)
 
Thank fudge some on here like yourself are keeping a sense of proportion. Too many throwing toys out of the pram.

Poch was outwitted and outgunned yesterday by a manager that most agree is the best in the world, one whom it seemed to me got his team more fired up than ever in order to deal with our perceived threat. We had after all recently stopped Real Madrid in their tracks.

His side are on a magnificent roll so their confidence is already sky high. It looked to me like their extraordinary intensity yesterday reflected Pep's determination to take no chances against us, to make sure every one of his players put in 110% against us.

It's like he knew the only way to be sure of beating us was to go at us like tigers, same as the Arse did a few weeks back. It's clear we are at our most vulnerable when opponents set out to throw us off our game by chasing and harrying the hell out of us, and for me that was a big part of the reason we lost yesterday. The result was our passing went completely AWOL and confidence went down the pan along with our performance.

But in one respect I take it as a complement that the big boys always feel the need to raise their game against us. It's like they know they have to pull out all the stops when we show up, especially on their dunghill. We are still perceived as the gatecrashers to their party, the ones they most want to put back into our box.

It's a massive problem for Poch, especially when some of our key players are either out or still coming back from extended lay-offs and others are going through a dip in form.

As others have said, Pep inherited one of the most expensive sides in the world, and then spent a ton more to adjust to his game = result is a very good side managed by a highly regarded manager.

Poch had two tactical options, sit back and soak it up (like we did against Real, Dortmund, Pool), or go after them and see if we could unsettle them with press, we went after them and their keeper's distribution was a big part of why it didn't work (vs. last year when their keeper panicked every time), you can argue all day about it, was just a choice.

A lot of what has been said here I disagree with, we lost the game in midfield (and not the attacking part), Winks for me had his worst game for us, was horribly exposed, Dembele struggled at the pace of the game (ended up fouling a lot just to not have people pass him by) and was completely gassed by 65 odd minutes in.

Worth remembering we tore Pool apart, they recovered and moving along fine. We need to get Wanyama & Toby back, Lamela & Rose match fit and we will be fine

Bad day at the office in the middle of a mediocre run of form ... happens (just not as much as it used to)
 
He said 'despite the odd good result' - that obviously being one. Do you think we've played well in general this season? Its good to see that we can grind out a result when not firing on all cylinders, but 'patchy' is a fair assessment of our overall performance so far this season.....

I think we have been ok, its all abit poacher turned game keeper isnt it, we have been so good for so long we would be looked at differently so you have to take that.

For me you have to give a certain level of respect to the opponent, Watford are not Watford from the 90s and Leics are not like the Filbert Street Days and they are not here to roll over.

Who in the league does not grind our results other than Emirates Marketing Project? United def do, Chelsea do, Liverpool have their moments.......so this Spurs are on their own stuff if crap, we are 3 points off 4th so on a level with other teams who are doing well and teams that also do not steam roll sides game in game out.
 
Losing to the best Premership side i have seen in the last decade or so is not the end ( and from some posts in this tread and elsewhere you would get that impression).
I don’t think anyone had an issue with us losing to Emirates Marketing Project, but was expecting us to compete - one of Pochs favourite words. Maybe some have over reacted with their words, but I don’t believe anyone was disappointed simply because we lost to Emirates Marketing Project....
 
Losing to the best Premership side i have seen in the last decade or so is not the end ( and from some posts in this tread and elsewhere you would get that impression).

Unfortunately we live in a world of must have results now and people can't accept the odd setback, it's a lot simpler on football manager. We've not been at our best in the league this season but with important players getting fitter I'm hoping for a better second half of the season and a bit of silverware.
 
Look at their bench.
Look at their resources.
Look at where they are in terms of their 'development' as a club from old school to new power.
Looks at the sheer amount of money poured into them by a nation.
Trust me Dubai, Pep Guardiola would NOT do a second season relying on squad development. David Silva wasn't available but Gungodan was. THAT COSTS MONEY!!!!!

As I mentioned, this narrative of them having loadsamoney, resources, blasting by us in terms of club development et al is the *overarching* story of Tottenham Hotspur vs Emirates Marketing Project. It has less bearing on what the situation was on matchday, when the Silva-Gundogan comparison isn't as potent. Because, if they could replace Silva with a 20m player in Gundogan, we had two 30m players on the bench (Lamela and Sissoko) to replace any of our players with. It's not as simple as 'THAT COSTS MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!', since Gundogan cost less than either of those two did, was as plagued by injury as Lamela was, and still managed to slot in seamlessly to replace Silva, while we had no one who could do the same for any of our injured players - *any* of them, on the day.

Your (frankly insane) ranting against Poch yesterday ignores the fact that hen has developed Dier, Alli, Kane, Eriksen and Alderweireld (not to men lion Rose and Walker) into 50 million + players. He DEVELOPED them into that. He did not pay that for them. Man Ute were prepared to pay 40mill for Dier!

Again, what this has to do with making horrendous tactical errors and refusing to change them *on the day* is beyond me. Totally irrelevant, actually - an appeal lacking any substance whatsoever to the matter at hand. This is going right back to the 'Oh, Poch developed players, Guardiola doesn't' stuff. Sure, no one denies that. But, in this game, Pep overcame the weaknesses of his squad and matchday line-up by designing his tactics to ensure that Delph was not unduly taxed, Mangala was not unduly taxed, Silva was adequately replaced...it wasn't 'player development' that did that, it was in-game tactics. Whereas Poch set up with tactics that brutally exposed our right-back to the fastest player in the Premier League...then played *Trippier* to counter that. And then refused to change it as that weakness was exploited for goal number one, goal number two *and* goal number three, with a host of chances in between.

My complaint is not about Poch and the way he develops players - he does that, I love him for it and think he should be here until at least 2022 because of it. But my complaint is *definitely* with his horrific tactical show and refusal to change it - which I am at a loss to explain.

I still cannot believe you stated that you though Poch was so afraid of being wrong that he purposely did not make changes which would help the team. I deleted my comment on it yesterday, but y'know, I still feel aggravated by it today so I will tell you again,...

The Aurier-Trippier change was an obvious one - a *blindingly* obvious one. Poch is too smart a man not to see the way Trippier was being exposed as Vanarama-league level by Sane, time, and time, and time, and *time* again. He did nothing. Nothing at all, from minute one to minute ninety.

It was a massively mystifying decision, which admits very few explanations to my mind - and I've thought about it quite a bit. Why was Poch so mystifyingly stubborn as his tactics collapsed around him?

I think he deserves MAXIMUM respect from our supporters, all of them.

There's this weird, febrile cultishness to your position on Poch that I just can't understand. The way you put it, he never makes mistakes, he is literally perfect, everything is perfectly planned, nothing ever goes wrong on his end, he's a genius when he gets out of bed and a bigger genius when he tucks back into it at the end of each day.

Yet, *he himself* will tell you that he makes mistakes, that he's still learning, that he isn't the finished article and neither is his team. He's no Sir Alex. He's no Jose Mourinho. He's no Pep Guardiola. He's no Arsene Wenger. Not yet. And he'll tell you as much - I'm *damn* sure of that.

You are rushing to defend the man more than he probably would himself, and it's honestly damn weird to see, Steff. You also presuppose motivations that don't exist, and assume that I and other people hold positions that we really don't. And again, just being honest here, no snark intended - that's pretty weird to see, mate.
 
Hasn’t delph Ben first choice since he and in (and they have Danilo who is a left back not starting), plus they had Ottamendi who has started every game he could this season

Only key players missing were stones and Silva but they have more than enough cover for silva with the other 30 attackers they signed

It disappointed me we couldn’t exploit what was a weak back line IMO but to do that we have to also do our defensive role too which we were really poor at

Delph is a central midfielder converted into being a sub-par wing-back. Mendy was first choice, but Delph was *made* first choice (and I think Danilo is a right-back who can play both sides, although I might be wrong on that - which, if true, would make him more like Aurier than a true left-back). And Delph does well because Pep's tactics ensure that he isn't exposed much.

Otamendi is one half of their first-choice pairing. Just like Verts is one half (or one third) of our first-choice defense. Yet, City's defense doesn't go to absolute brick when Otamendi is left without Stones - our defense does go to absolute crap when Toby isn't around. That's a key difference, imo.
 
As I mentioned, this narrative of them having loadsamoney, resources, blasting by us in terms of club development et al is the *overarching* story of Tottenham Hotspur vs Emirates Marketing Project. It has less bearing on what the situation was on matchday, when the Silva-Gundogan comparison isn't as potent. Because, if they could replace Silva with a 20m player in Gundogan, we had two 30m players on the bench (Lamela and Sissoko) to replace any of our players with. It's not as simple as 'THAT COSTS MONEY!!!!!!!!!!!!', since Gundogan cost less than either of those two did, was as plagued by injury as Lamela was, and still managed to slot in seamlessly to replace Silva, while we had no one who could do the same for any of our injured players - *any* of them, on the day.



Again, what this has to do with making horrendous tactical errors and refusing to change them *on the day* is beyond me. Totally irrelevant, actually - an appeal lacking any substance whatsoever to the matter at hand. This is going right back to the 'Oh, Poch developed players, Guardiola doesn't' stuff. Sure, no one denies that. But, in this game, Pep overcame the weaknesses of his squad and matchday line-up by designing his tactics to ensure that Delph was not unduly taxed, Mangala was not unduly taxed, Silva was adequately replaced...it wasn't 'player development' that did that, it was in-game tactics. Whereas Poch set up with tactics that brutally exposed our right-back to the fastest player in the Premier League...then played *Trippier* to counter that. And then refused to change it as that weakness was exploited for goal number one, goal number two *and* goal number three, with a host of chances in between.

My complaint is not about Poch and the way he develops players - he does that, I love him for it and think he should be here until at least 2022 because of it. But my complaint is *definitely* with his horrific tactical show and refusal to change it - which I am at a loss to explain.



The Aurier-Trippier change was an obvious one - a *blindingly* obvious one. Poch is too smart a man not to see the way Trippier was being exposed as Vanarama-league level by Sane, time, and time, and time, and *time* again. He did nothing. Nothing at all, from minute one to minute ninety.

It was a massively mystifying decision, which admits very few explanations to my mind - and I've thought about it quite a bit. Why was Poch so mystifyingly stubborn as his tactics collapsed around him?



There's this weird, febrile cultishness to your position on Poch that I just can't understand. The way you put it, he never makes mistakes, he is literally perfect, everything is perfectly planned, nothing ever goes wrong on his end, he's a genius when he gets out of bed and a bigger genius when he tucks back into it at the end of each day.

Yet, *he himself* will tell you that he makes mistakes, that he's still learning, that he isn't the finished article and neither is his team. He's no Sir Alex. He's no Jose Mourinho. He's no Pep Guardiola. He's no Arsene Wenger. Not yet. And he'll tell you as much - I'm *damn* sure of that.

You are rushing to defend the man more than he probably would himself, and it's honestly damn weird to see, Steff. You also presuppose motivations that don't exist, and assume that I and other people hold positions that we really don't. And again, just being honest here, no snark intended - that's pretty weird to see, mate.
I must say I agree with a lot of this, but I don’t think it’s fair to pinpoint Stef. It seems anyone on here who questions anything Poch does is jumped upon for some weird reason and is made out to look as though they are calling him useless....
 
Delph is a central midfielder converted into being a sub-par wing-back. Mendy was first choice, but Delph was *made* first choice (and I think Danilo is a right-back who can play both sides, although I might be wrong on that - which, if true, would make him more like Aurier than a true left-back). And Delph does well because Pep's tactics ensure that he isn't exposed much.

Otamendi is one half of their first-choice pairing. Just like Verts is one half (or one third) of our first-choice defense. Yet, City's defense doesn't go to absolute brick when Otamendi is left without Stones - our defense does go to absolute crap when Toby isn't around. That's a key difference, imo.

Well they haven’t kept any clean sheets have they for some time but it helps they have an outstanding attack
 
I must say I agree with a lot of this, but I don’t think it’s fair to pinpoint Stef. It seems anyone on here who questions anything Poch does is jumped upon for some weird reason and is made out to look as though they are calling him useless....

Oh, definitely - I'm not pinpointing Steff alone, not at all. I mentioned as much in the Poch thread, mate.
 
Delph is a central midfielder converted into being a sub-par wing-back. Mendy was first choice, but Delph was *made* first choice (and I think Danilo is a right-back who can play both sides, although I might be wrong on that - which, if true, would make him more like Aurier than a true left-back). And Delph does well because Pep's tactics ensure that he isn't exposed much.

Otamendi is one half of their first-choice pairing. Just like Verts is one half (or one third) of our first-choice defense. Yet, City's defense doesn't go to absolute brick when Otamendi is left without Stones - our defense does go to absolute crap when Toby isn't around. That's a key difference, imo.
And our defense is left with Dembele (a way sub par Dembele) and Winks as the midfield 2. The defense doesn't play in isolation from the rest of the team.
 
And our defense is left with Dembele (a way sub par Dembele) and Winks as the midfield 2. The defense doesn't play in isolation from the rest of the team.

And? I agree, the defense doesn't play in isolation from the rest of the team. We had a proper left back providing width down the left and defensive nous down that flank - they had a short, slow, converted central midfielder performing the same role on the other side. For our weakness in defensive midfield, look at their weakness on the left. One was covered for better than the other, however.

Well they haven’t kept any clean sheets have they for some time but it helps they have an outstanding attack

Sure, but as @90291Spur mentioned, it's a team game. I'm sure the attack can rely on the defense working to ensure they concede fewer than the opposition, and to generally not give goals away as easily as ours does when Toby isn't around.
 
And? I agree, the defense doesn't play in isolation from the rest of the team. We had a proper left back providing width down the left and defensive nous down that flank - they had a short, slow, converted central midfielder performing the same role on the other side. For our weakness in defensive midfield, look at their weakness on the left. One was covered for better than the other, however.



Sure, but as @90291Spur mentioned, it's a team game. I'm sure the attack can rely on the defense working to ensure they concede fewer than the opposition, and to generally not give goals away as easily as ours does when Toby isn't around.

We are not the same team without Toby as I’ve highlighted that enough (people thought it was kane we missed the most last season but need to look at the stats pre Christmas last year)

But no team is as good when missing their world class players

City have no world class centre backs and arguably Walker is there only world class defender depending on your view of what is wC

What they have is an amazing worth ethic and a stunning attack
 
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