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****OMT - TOTTENHAM HOTSPUR vs LAZIO**********

COYS said:
The only good thing about winning a cup is prestige, but I can't see what prestige there is in beating Europe's 2nd best.

If this holds us back in the league, then why would we want to compete when it's hardly worth it?
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guess we should discount our previous UEFA cup campaigns then

and the cup winners cup
 
The Moonlit Knight said:
I don't agree with that anymore unfortunately. Probably never did actually because a fair few clubs won the FA Cup or League Cup growing up that never went on to seriously challenge for a title.
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So when we moved away from being mid table dross/possible relegation scrap material in the 90's to European regulars top 5/6 in the league our profile didn't go up and we didn't start attracting a better standard of player? If we win the Europa it pushes our profile further, it means we've gone to tough European grounds and got results.

If the competition is good enough for Atletico and Valencia to take seriously then its certainly good enough for us.

I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Europe League final vs Inter Milan. THAT is breeding success - dont play a Euro heavyweight like Inter for decades - then get the better of them twice in the space of a few years. Thats real tangible progress on a stage bigger than your own domestic league.
 
ultimately i think we will see two teams with a bit of rotation - there is no such thing as a "first XI" anymore

both teams will want to go through and know the two hardest games (on paper) are against eachother - but 1st or 2nd place still gets you through
 
The Moonlit Knight said:
Different era. The FA Cup was just as important as winning the League pre-Premiership days.

The Champion's League has ruined football, but unfortunately it has become the be all and end all.
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the era is irrelevant - the point made was that "it wasn't worth playing in a competition against Europe's SECOND best".

the UEFA cup has never included Europe's best - so by the reckoning of the earlier poster, our European trophy count is worthless
 
monkeybarry said:
the era is irrelevant - the point made was that "it wasn't worth playing in a competition against Europe's SECOND best".

the UEFA cup has never included Europe's best - so by the reckoning of the earlier poster, our European trophy count is worthless
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Hear, hear
 
Oh and the Europa final is in Amsterdam, I don't think I need any more reason for me to want the team to go all the way!
 
Armchair Expert said:
So when we moved away from being mid table dross/possible relegation scrap material in the 90's to European regulars top 5/6 in the league our profile didn't go up and we didn't start attracting a better standard of player? If we win the Europa it pushes our profile further, it means we've gone to tough European grounds and got results.

If the competition is good enough for Atletico and Valencia to take seriously then its certainly good enough for us.

I wouldn't turn my nose up at a Europe League final vs Inter Milan. THAT is breeding success - dont play a Euro heavyweight like Inter for decades - then get the better of them twice in the space of a few years. Thats real tangible progress on a stage bigger than your own domestic league.
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I'm confused, that's the league? Surely a BETTER example would be winning the League Cup in the 90's? Did we push on? Or the FA Cup in 91? Did we push on? When we won the League Cup under Ramos did we push on? The answer to all three is no, obviously.

I don't disagree that winning a Cup would be great. My heart tells me that I'd rather win the League Cup and finish 5th than win nothing and finish 2nd BUT my head knows winning the "Junior" cups does fudge all anymore other than put your players in the shop window to be poached.

We have a thread dedicated to laughing at Liverpool. They won the League Cup so had a more successful season than us last year and yet we're laughing at them? Why?

Sadly we need top four. Last year was unlucky. Chelsea towards the end of the season sacrificed Premiership results to focus on the CL and it paid off for them at our cost. If it happens again this year so be it. But 4th place earns more kudos among players & potential signings than winning one of the Junior Cups. I don't like it, but it's reality.
 
monkeybarry said:
the era is irrelevant - the point made was that "it wasn't worth playing in a competition against Europe's SECOND best".

the UEFA cup has never included Europe's best - so by the reckoning of the earlier poster, our European trophy count is worthless
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In the days where winning the FA Cup, UEFA Cup or League Cup offered you the same reward as finishing 2nd in the league it meant more. Pre-Champion's League the UEFA Cup was much harder to win as well.

Things DO change. Whether we like it or not. It doesn't belittle achievements in our history, but the bottom line is the rewards (even financial) for winning the Junior cups are less than qualifying for the Champion's League.
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
We'll be taking the UEFA cup more seriously this year and quite rightly to, it's a very good cup to win with some quality clubs / teams in it. If the squad is managed correctly it can just about cope (with an inevitable addition or 2 in Jan to freshen it up). Providing the manager doesn't let useful squad options go on loan like last Jan, Corluka, Bassong, Pienaar and Pav - could have all helped in keeping 1st choices fresh. I get the feeling AVB won't be as worried about resting a player here or there throughout the season, something that was obvious we needed by the end of last season.
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Spot on.
 
The Moonlit Knight said:
Pre-Champion's League the UEFA Cup was much harder to win as well.
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How so - please explain?

The Moonlit Knight said:
but the bottom line is the rewards (even financial) for winning the Junior cups are less than qualifying for the Champion's League
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Junior Cups? It is the second biggest European club trophy

Absolute rubbish - a major European trophy is exactly that - a presitigious acheivement for any club and manager.
 
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The Moonlit Knight said:
In the days where winning the FA Cup, UEFA Cup or League Cup offered you the same reward as finishing 2nd in the league it meant more. Pre-Champion's League the UEFA Cup was much harder to win as well.

Things DO change. Whether we like it or not. It doesn't belittle achievements in our history, but the bottom line is the rewards (even financial) for winning the Junior cups are less than qualifying for the Champion's League.
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reading posts in context isn't your strength is it?

yes, things change - but the competition is still the 2nd tier inter-European football competition.

the poster i replied to stated it was pointless to compete against "Europe's second best" - the UEFA cup was Europe's second best and below.

Ergo, by the analysis of COYS, our previous European acheivements are meaningless.

Get it now?
 
Money aside, last season was more prestige, more entertainment and stronger winner in the UEFA Europa League than the Champions League.
I'd be proud if we won it
 
Gazza Dazzla said:
We'll be taking the UEFA cup more seriously this year and quite rightly to, it's a very good cup to win with some quality clubs / teams in it. If the squad is managed correctly it can just about cope (with an inevitable addition or 2 in Jan to freshen it up). Providing the manager doesn't let useful squad options go on loan like last Jan, Corluka, Bassong, Pienaar and Pav - could have all helped in keeping 1st choices fresh. I get the feeling AVB won't be as worried about resting a player here or there throughout the season, something that was obvious we needed by the end of last season.
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It would be hard for us to take it less seriously!!! We should though be using it to give everyone match time - last year Harry managed to alienate squad players by not rotating the league team and playing kids where he should have used squad members.

As a rule of thumb, I would like to see the bench from the previously league game play in the following Thursday's Europa - that way your first team squad (by that I mean the best 18 fit players as evidenced by the fact that you almost always play your strongest team in teh league) play every week.

Therefore, this Thursday Lloris, Caulker, Dawson, Thudd, Townsend, Dempsey and Adebayor all start. Thats 7 of the starting 11. For the remaining 4, pick either (i) people who started the last league game (eg Naughton, Lennon perhaps) or (ii) 1 or 2 promising youngsters (eg Carroll or, given we lack full backs, Adam Smith) or (iii) other senior players who didnt make thelast 18 for the league game
 
monkeybarry said:
reading posts in context isn't your strength is it?

yes, things change - but the competition is still the 2nd tier inter-European football competition.

the poster i replied to stated it was pointless to compete against "Europe's second best" - the UEFA cup was Europe's second best and below.

Ergo, by the analysis of COYS, our previous European acheivements are meaningless.

Get it now?
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Thanks for the condescending post and welcome to my block list.
 
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