*** OMT - Tottenham Hotspur v Chelscum ***

[Mikey10]

Other than an actual signing, what would alleviate your concern in that regard?

Seeing some of those shipped out who have shown - under three managers - that they don’t have what it takes.

 

[SpurMeUp]

It's always disappointing seeing people tying themselves up in knots to excuse bigotry. If the club's LGBTQ+ fan group are telling you about their concerns about the chant and asking fans to stop, who are you to argue?

We need to get our house in order on this. This chant belongs in the dustbin of history.

personally I find it ‘disappointing’ when people are oozing to call others bigots for no good reason. It used to mean something. Now anyone who makes a joke, sings a chant or dares to question norms is automatically a bigot. I just find that kind of labelling and stereotyping hypocritical especially when it is in the name of pluralism.

 

[JerusalemMan]

Seeing some of those shipped out who have shown - under three managers - that they don’t have what it takes.

Yes. I'm with you there.

 

[billyiddo]

Seeing some of those shipped out who have shown - under three managers - that they don’t have what it takes.

You and others keep referring to these players that have failed 3 managers but between Mourinho & Nuno we're talking about someone who was past it when appointed and someone who barely looked like he wanted to be here from the moment he joined - we've already seen turnarounds in several players under Conte, players who we'd all have loved to bomb out in the last few transfer windows but have looked much better for working with a manager who seems to know what he's doing - where would these players be if they had spent the last 2-3 years working under a manager like Conte?

The squad has issues with balance and what not, whilst some players are beyond saving at this point or are just unsuited to the team that Conte wants to build but lets not pretend that our recent managerial appointments have not been failures on their own terms and were let down by a bunch of uncoachable players.

 

[glasgowspur]

We've been politely asked by a group of our own to not sing a song with language that they find unacceptable.
Whether we think it is or isn't, that should be be that.
We should all have enough respect for them and ourselves to say that although i disagree with your interpretation if it is something that you feel strongly about we will drop the chant and we all move on together.
Bigotry and prejudice belong in past, along with these kinds of chants.

 

[glasgowspur]

You and others keep referring to these players that have failed 3 managers but between Mourinho & Nuno we're talking about someone who was past it when appointed and someone who barely looked like he wanted to be here from the moment he joined - we've already seen turnarounds in several players under Conte, players who we'd all have loved to bomb out in the last few transfer windows but have looked much better for working with a manager who seems to know what he's doing.

The squad has issues with balance and what not, whilst some players are beyond saving at this point or are just unsuited to the team that Conte wants to build but lets not pretend that our recent managerial appointments have not been failures on their own terms andvwere let down by a bunch of uncoachable players.

I agree that jose and nuno need to take some of blame, but the players aren't blameless.
Hugo, dier and son are the only three i would give an unconditional pass to.

 

[billyiddo]

I agree that jose and nuno need to take some of blame, but the players aren't blameless.
Hugo, dier and son are the only three i would give an unconditional pass to.

In general terms, If you were to appoint a series of bad/unsuitable managers that fail at their job where/how do you pinpoint the blame on the people that they are managing?

The clubs hierarchy should shoulder most of the blame for the last few years and for me there's an argument to be made that the players are the ones at the bottom who have suffered as a result of those poor decisions made by the people in charge (along with us supporters who have had to watch it all unfold)

 

[glasgowspur]

In general terms, If you were to appoint a series of bad/unsuitable managers that fail at their job where/how do you pinpoint the blame on the people that they are managing?

The clubs hierarchy should shoulder most of the blame for the last few years and for me there's an argument to be made that the players are the ones at the bottom who have suffered as a result of those poor decisions made by the people in charge (along with us supporters who have had to watch it all unfold)

I think there is a lot of blame to be laid at the boardroom door for jose, i will never understand that appointment.
Nuno, i could see at the beginning, but as time went on it was obvious he was a stopgap.
The real point where it all went wrong and started to unravel is very complicated and we will probably never know.
That famous night in Amsterdam is a good shout imo, it came to early.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You have nailed it yet again @Bedfordspurs . Don't know why others even need to consider it. Mourinho identified we needed a top centre forward in his first window. What happened? We bought Bergwyn. We needed a top centre forward then and we most certainly need one now.

The hold up figures you quite above amply demonstrate this . As does not a single goal from open play in our last three games - and one of those was against a 10 man Soton team and another against probable relegation fodder.

Simply not good enough.

And IMO it’s not just because of the supply line to them
When your better players are playing as if there broken…maybe they are
Not one Spurs fan would say that son, kane and Moura this season aren’t vital for us…. Yet plenty would prioritise a LCB or RWB over a new forward
We simply do not have goals in this team without those guys scoring and it’s awful
Of course I’ll caveat that the club will buy players they can which may mean another window with no new strikers or goal scorers in and maybe we get the RWB and LCB which we do need…but it would be crazy IMO

 

[Mikey10]

You and others keep referring to these players that have failed 3 managers but between Mourinho & Nuno we're talking about someone who was past it when appointed and someone who barely looked like he wanted to be here from the moment he joined - we've already seen turnarounds in several players under Conte, players who we'd all have loved to bomb out in the last few transfer windows but have looked much better for working with a manager who seems to know what he's doing - where would these players be if they had spent the last 2-3 years working under a manager like Conte?

The squad has issues with balance and what not, whilst some players are beyond saving at this point or are just unsuited to the team that Conte wants to build but lets not pretend that our recent managerial appointments have not been failures on their own terms and were let down by a bunch of uncoachable players.

I don’t think either manager you name turned out to be great, and the board certainly have their share of the blame. However, many of the players still here fell at the last hurdles under Pochettino too - and, CL run aside, they were poor under him for the last year he was here.

Anyway, I’m sure we’ll have to agree to disagree.

 

[Gutter Boy]

We've been politely asked by a group of our own to not sing a song with language that they find unacceptable.
Whether we think it is or isn't, that should be be that.
We should all have enough respect for them and ourselves to say that although i disagree with your interpretation if it is something that you feel strongly about we will drop the chant and we all move on together.
Bigotry and prejudice belong in past, along with these kinds of chants.

Not sure. In the current climate of political extremism, doing things like that by diktat is just playing into the hands of the culture warriors. Dialogue would be much more preferable, especially when interpretation of the phrase clearly varies quite considerably

Do yes, absolutely, use this to open a conversation about could it be interpreted as homophobic. But we all know that bluntly ordering it's banning is just going to see the term weaponised and its use increase by the pond life, basically stirring homophobia where there was none (see taking the knee serving to increase racist incidents)

 

[braineclipse]

Not sure. In the current climate of political extremism, doing things like that by diktat is just playing into the hands of the culture warriors. Dialogue would be much more preferable, especially when interpretation of the phrase clearly varies quite considerably

Do yes, absolutely, use this to open a conversation about could it be interpreted as homophobic. But we all know that bluntly ordering it's banning is just going to see the term weaponised and its use increase by the pond life, basically stirring homophobia where there was none (see taking the knee serving to increase racist incidents)

Let's have a dialog with what you describe as "pond life".

It's a term that has been and is being used as a homophobic slur. Do you disagree? If not that should be enough, if you disagree probably a good idea to listen to those that have been the target of that abuse.

 

[glasgowspur]

Not sure. In the current climate of political extremism, doing things like that by diktat is just playing into the hands of the culture warriors. Dialogue would be much more preferable, especially when interpretation of the phrase clearly varies quite considerably

Do yes, absolutely, use this to open a conversation about could it be interpreted as homophobic. But we all know that bluntly ordering it's banning is just going to see the term weaponised and its use increase by the pond life, basically stirring homophobia where there was none (see taking the knee serving to increase racist incidents)

I totally agree that humour and friendly banter is under pressure, as someone who values that and has a very caustic sense of humour i am the first to defend that right.
But this isn't by diktat, we've been politely asked by a group we consider to be one of our own nit to use certain language.
Now, i personally think that the "we're coming for you" and its insidious overtones of violence is more if a concern than the name calling, but the chant isn't aimed at me or any group i belong to, so maybe i shouldn't judge.

These chants/songs are traditional and i dare say a lot who sing them do it out of habit, same as you find yourself whistling jingle bells at a certain time of the year, i don't believe that it automatically makes you a bigot, but are we really losing anything if we dropped them?
What would we lose, and would you really want to be the type of person who argues for a pretty unpleasant habit that sullies our club, its fan base and yourself?
I don't think you are, i totally understand the principle you are arguing for and i agree with it, but this one isn't worth it.

 

[Lilbaz]

I totally agree that humour and friendly banter is under pressure, as someone who values that and has a very caustic sense of humour i am the first to defend that right.
But this isn't by diktat, we've been politely asked by a group we consider to be one of our own nit to use certain language.
Now, i personally think that the "we're coming for you" and its insidious overtones of violence is more if a concern than the name calling, but the chant isn't aimed at me or any group i belong to, so maybe i shouldn't judge.

These chants/songs are traditional and i dare say a lot who sing them do it out of habit, same as you find yourself whistling jingle bells at a certain time of the year, i don't believe that it automatically makes you a bigot, but are we really losing anything if we dropped them?
What would we lose, and would you really want to be the type of person who argues for a pretty unpleasant habit that sullies our club, its fan base and yourself?
I don't think you are, i totally understand the principle you are arguing for and i agree with it, but this one isn't worth it.

Not defending the song. Be happy for us not to sing it. But just thought i'd explain it's history (taken from quora).

"Firstly a "rent boy" is a popular colloquialism for a male prostitute. Rumour has it that sometime in the 1980s, a police raid at the dawn of the morning revealed a Chelsea hooligan lying in bed with a male prostitute or a "rent boy".

At that time the notorious Chelsea hooligan firm called the Chelsea Headhunters had a popular chant named 'Chelsea Aggro". After the incident was read in the tabloids, rival fans, mainly the supporters of clubs from Manchester & victims replaced the word 'Aggro' with 'rent boys'. Ergo, the chant 'Chelsea rent boys'.

Another reason why the chant was popularised by rival fans was because the Earl's Court area in London, near Stamford Bridge, was a spot to pick up male prostitutes, apparently."

Insults by their very nature are meant to be offensive. Same as "kitten". Is that classed as sexist? Seems women use it just as much as men. Doesn't mean all women are kittens.

 

[glasgowspur]

Not defending the song. Be happy for us not to sing it. But just thought i'd explain it's history (taken from quora).

"Firstly a "rent boy" is a popular colloquialism for a male prostitute. Rumour has it that sometime in the 1980s, a police raid at the dawn of the morning revealed a Chelsea hooligan lying in bed with a male prostitute or a "rent boy".

At that time the notorious Chelsea hooligan firm called the Chelsea Headhunters had a popular chant named 'Chelsea Aggro". After the incident was read in the tabloids, rival fans, mainly the supporters of clubs from Manchester & victims replaced the word 'Aggro' with 'rent boys'. Ergo, the chant 'Chelsea rent boys'.

Another reason why the chant was popularised by rival fans was because the Earl's Court area in London, near Stamford Bridge, was a spot to pick up male prostitutes, apparently."

Insults by their very nature are meant to be offensive. Same as "fluffy bunnies cuddling". Is that classed as sexist? Seems women use it just as much as men. Doesn't mean all women are fluffy bunnies cuddlings.

I have vague idea of what the song is about, never really paid any attention to it tbh.
As someone who grew up in Glasgow in the 70s and attended loads of football matches i have no hesitation in saying that i have participated in singing along with some "unpleasant" songs.
Not in any way exonerating myself, but it is a large part of the enjoyment of matches for some people. The commual gathering, joining voices, the feeling of being part of something, what you are actually singing in that moment doesn't really matter, it makes you belong.
Now, that's all very well until someone points out that maybe we should think twice about what we are singing. We may have one perception of it, but others rightly have another, and that it doesn't reflect well on us.
What 30 years ago started out as a taunt and sarcastic response hasn't dated well and we should realise that and move on.

 

[Lilbaz]

I have vague idea of what the song is about, never really paid any attention to it tbh.
As someone who grew up in Glasgow in the 70s and attended loads of football matches i have no hesitation in saying that i have participated in singing along with some "unpleasant" songs.
Not in any way exonerating myself, but it is a large part of the enjoyment of matches for some people. The commual gathering, joining voices, the feeling of being part of something, what you are actually singing in that moment doesn't really matter, it makes you belong.
Now, that's all very well until someone points out that maybe we should think twice about what we are singing. We may have one perception of it, but others rightly have another, and that it doesn't reflect well on us.
What 30 years ago started out as a taunt and sarcastic response hasn't dated well and we should realise that and move on.

Which is fair enough. As i said though insults are meant to be offensive to the person you are insulting. So does this mean we shouldn't insult our opposition incase they find it offensive?

Maybe we should. Going to be hard to police though.

 

[glasgowspur]

Which is fair enough. As i said though insults are meant to be offensive to the person you are insulting. So does this mean we shouldn't insult our opposition incase they find it offensive?

Maybe we should. Going to be hard to police though.

No i get that, and if it was Chelsea fans complaining i would be telling them that we will stop it when they stop making hissing noises (while quietly dropping the rent boy chant).
But its not, its a group of our own supporters who find it offensive.
In my own personal opinion i think some of these practices are defended and held onto because of the way accusations of Bigotry are to easily banded about, that in my opinion isn't doing anyone any good.
Fingers are to quickly pointed nowadays.

 

[braineclipse]

Which is fair enough. As i said though insults are meant to be offensive to the person you are insulting. So does this mean we shouldn't insult our opposition incase they find it offensive?

Maybe we should. Going to be hard to police though.

No, not because it's offensive.

Because in addition to being offensive it's a homophobic term.

If we can't insult and offend Chelsea fans without using homophobic slurs it's not only on the pitch we lack creativity.

It's really not that difficult to insult and offend people without using bigoted language.

 

[lurker of old]

I am happy to defer to Proud Lilywhites on this and let them advise on what is and isn't homophobic. It's a disgusting chant and needs to be binned.

I suspect this is a culture clash between generations: as an old fart I think our gay fans are being over-sensitive. Football is becoming more and more sanitised, and if it carries on people will object to swearing at games (the referee's a so and so) on the basis that swear words are out of place at a family event. I'm with Gutter Boy on this one ...calling Chelsea fans rent boys isn't homophobic in my book, and certainly doesn't "victimise young gay men". This is football....once you start requiring crowds to adopt woke standards in the chants to their tribal rivals, you take the passion out. Whatever happened to "sticks and stones may break my bones..?"
Of course I'm out of step with the modern world, but how long before the club starts encouraging fans to report bad language, 10 years, 20?

 

[harr1984]

Interesting debate, but it’s pointless looking too deep into it. At the end of the day, in todays woke society if there is a whiff of something being offensive to a section of people you get cancelled so inevitably this kind of chant is going to disappear, in football stadiums at least….