***OMT Tottenham Hotspur v Boro***

[Baleforce]

It's down to interpretation some referees will send off others will not. I tend to support the latter.

the referees are not allowed to apply interpretation, they are supposed to apply the laws as written

 

[Bullet]

... especially weird as Alli hadn't even done anything to provoke such a reaction....

Wrong. Alli pulled Valdes' arm to provoke him. That worked and Valdes was provoked into poking him in the face.

 

[paxtonwolf]

Could not agree more, that was the biggest one sided game we have had this season we dominated the game . I said in the thread earlier that we had to get a early goal because Boro have the 4th best defensive record in the Prem, we failed to do so but they defended well, we were not clinical enough and their keeper is a good one.

It was certainly up there, but I would nominate the Swansea match for that title

 

[afsoc4life]

Wrong. Alli pulled Valdes' arm to provoke him. That worked and Valdes was provoked into poking him in the face.

Not to provoke him. To dissuade him from going for the ball. IIRC this was a tactic used by Sam's Bolton. I remember Kevin Davies scoring while a Spurs player was held back during a corner in an away game to Bolton pre-2010.

 

[braineclipse]

Corners, We suck at them. it's now getting monotonous. Please can someone else take them and can we vary it from always going near post and more often than not hitting the first man. A good corner coach could easily get us an extra 5 goals a season IMO. That could make all the difference to where we end up. It should now be a main priority as we have covered most other aspects of the game pretty well.IMO.

Best corner taker at the club (Lamela) has been missing for most of the season.

 

[Pirate55]

Best corner taker at the club (Lamela) has been missing for most of the season.

Even when in Lamela was in the side, Eriksen still took most of the corners iirc. He certainly takes virtually all the free kicks

 

[braineclipse]

Even when in Lamela was in the side, Eriksen still took most of the corners iirc. He certainly takes virtually all the free kicks

That's not how I remember it.

I even remember people pointing out that several of Lamela's assists were from corners as if that somehow made them less valuable. "After all anyone can take a corner..."

Eriksen takes most of the (direct) free kicks for sure. But I don't see how that's particularly relevant to our current conversation.

 

[glasgowspur]

Was it not one of them from the left and one from the right on corners?

 

[Spur of the moment]

That's not how I remember it.

I even remember people pointing out that several of Lamela's assists were from corners as if that somehow made them less valuable. "After all anyone can take a corner..."

Eriksen takes most of the (direct) free kicks for sure. But I don't see how that's particularly relevant to our current conversation.

I think Pirate is right. There may have been a short spell when Lamela was taking more of the corners but most of that time he was roughly alternating with Eriksen, and as glasgowspur suggests taking them mostly from the right, but it did not last long before it became more intermittent. I remember some of us commenting on how frustrating it was because like you say his were clearly better and more productive than Eriksen's.

 

[scaramanga]

Brilliant stuff SteveAWOL, as usual. Conclusion, we have got the second most corners this season and scored the second least goals. If that doesn't highlight a problem issue, I don't know what does!

An alternative (and more nuanced) way of looking at those same data is that if we changed literally everything about the club - it's ethos, playing staff, manager, tactics, training, etc it might gain us a goal from a corner every three matches. That's without taking into account the massive damage that setting up like that would do to our ability to score by other methods and to win corners in the first place.

Looking down that table, the first team that plays football is Liverpool. So we could work hard at doing what Liverpool do at corners (if that's even a measurable thing) and gain ourselves a goal from a corner every 6 matches. I suspect there are far more efficient methods of adding to our goal tally.

So let's look at what "normal" is in terms of goals scored from corners. It's pretty clear from the table above that "normal" for goals scored from corners over 24 matches is 4 - let's be generous and say 4.5. So we are 2.5 goals below "normal" over 24 matches, or one goal from a corner every 5.3 matches.

Or maybe we're just a statistical anomaly away from being bang average, considering the sample size.

Now let's take this up a level. Plot yourself a correlation between corners won and goals scored in a season - there's a very clear correlation. Teams that create lots of corners score lots of goals. Sensible really - better teams spend more time attacking, they have more possession, etc. Now look at who tops those goals scored tables; only Liverpool are above average in goals from corners. Take a look at the table above - those that score lots of goals from corners are not teams that score lots of goals from open play. That suggests to me that there's a chance that setting up to score from corners is detrimental to a team's ability to score from open play.

Football isn't as simple as Pulisball = goals, otherwise everyone would be playing Pulisball and we'd all be scoring a fudgepile of goals.

 

[the dza]

Liverpool probably score more from corners than us because the delivery is better (Coutinho). Lamela taking more of our corners would see the goals increase, we don't have to change the whole playing style or anything like that. We don't have to be the best at them (Pulis teams) but we could be better simply by having someone who was better at taking corners.

 

[scaramanga]

Liverpool probably score more from corners than us because the delivery is better (Coutinho). Lamela taking more of our corners would see the goals increase, we don't have to change the whole playing style or anything like that. We don't have to be the best at them (Pulis teams) but we could be better simply by having someone who was better at taking corners.

Or it might just be statistical anomaly.

If Liverpool had scored one fewer and we'd scored one more then pretty much every football-playing team would be clumped around the "normal" number.

 

[Pirate55]

An alternative (and more nuanced) way of looking at those same data is that if we changed literally everything about the club - it's ethos, playing staff, manager, tactics, training, etc it might gain us a goal from a corner every three matches. That's without taking into account the massive damage that setting up like that would do to our ability to score by other methods and to win corners in the first place.

Looking down that table, the first team that plays football is Liverpool. So we could work hard at doing what Liverpool do at corners (if that's even a measurable thing) and gain ourselves a goal from a corner every 6 matches. I suspect there are far more efficient methods of adding to our goal tally.

So let's look at what "normal" is in terms of goals scored from corners. It's pretty clear from the table above that "normal" for goals scored from corners over 24 matches is 4 - let's be generous and say 4.5. So we are 2.5 goals below "normal" over 24 matches, or one goal from a corner every 5.3 matches.

Or maybe we're just a statistical anomaly away from being bang average, considering the sample size.

Now let's take this up a level. Plot yourself a correlation between corners won and goals scored in a season - there's a very clear correlation. Teams that create lots of corners score lots of goals. Sensible really - better teams spend more time attacking, they have more possession, etc. Now look at who tops those goals scored tables; only Liverpool are above average in goals from corners. Take a look at the table above - those that score lots of goals from corners are not teams that score lots of goals from open play. That suggests to me that there's a chance that setting up to score from corners is detrimental to a team's ability to score from open play.

Football isn't as simple as Pulisball = goals, otherwise everyone would be playing Pulisball and we'd all be scoring a fudgepile of goals.

Sorry but working on corners does not equal "changing everything about the club - its ethos, playing staff, manager, tactics, training etc" as you suggest. Corners and free kicks are specialist elements not from open play but from static situations that can be pre-planned and pre-rehearsed. The corner flags are in exactly the same place every game when I last looked.

Lets take your figures. We are 2.5 goals below "normal" over 24 matches, or one goal from a corner every 5.3 matches. Of the course of a season, that could lead to about an extra four goals from corners. Best case, that could earn us an extra 8 points per season. I don think even you would consider this inconsequential.

However, it is especially important that in tight, close games (e.g. Liverpool) or where we are struggling to score an opener against a side sitting back (e.g. Sunderland), a goal from a corner or free kick is just what the doctor ordered to change the course of a game and open up the opposition to come forward and then allow for a comfortable win.

Corners are a stand-alone set piece element of the game. There is absolutely no need why there should be a correlation between the way a team plays and how they take corners. I would argue that a little more planning from corners would potentially add big dividends to our team. Even at my (admittedly high) amateur level of football, we practiced several different corner routines and everyone was well drilled in where to stand and where to run in each different routine. It seems Poch has a blind spot for dead balls - evidenced by his surprising nonchalance and unpreparedness over who took the penalty against City when there was a dispute between Lamela and Son.

I would like to see some substantial improvement on corners.

 

[the dza]

Or it might just be statistical anomaly.

If Liverpool had scored one fewer and we'd scored one more then pretty much every football-playing team would be clumped around the "normal" number.

Possibly, but @SteveAWOL posted that last season, when Lamela took 99 of our corners, we scored 10 goals from corners. In Poch's first season, we scored 6. We do seem particularly low this season, I'm sure luck also plays a part (Toby hit the post the other day from an Eriksen corner, for example).

I don't think it's anything major for us to worry about, though it would be nice if we were a bit better at them.

 

[scaramanga]

Sorry but working on corners does not equal "changing everything about the club - its ethos, playing staff, manager, tactics, training etc" as you suggest. Corners and free kicks are specialist elements not from open play but from static situations that can be pre-planned and pre-rehearsed. The corner flags are in exactly the same place every game when I last looked.

The point you've missed is that in order to score Pulis numbers of corners we need to set up like a Pulis team. That would change everything about the club.

Lets take your figures. We are 2.5 goals below "normal" over 24 matches, or one goal from a corner every 5.3 matches. Of the course of a season, that could lead to about an extra four goals from corners. Best case, that could earn us an extra 8 points per season. I don think even you would consider this inconsequential.

Except when you take into account that those who score a lot from corners don't tend to score much from open play. It's not a case of just adding corner goals, it a question of how many open play goals we'd lose by changing how we're set up.

However, it is especially important that in tight, close games (e.g. Liverpool) or where we are struggling to score an opener against a side sitting back (e.g. Sunderland), a goal from a corner or free kick is just what the doctor ordered to change the course of a game and open up the opposition to come forward and then allow for a comfortable win.

Except there's a decent chance that Liverpool are just a statistical anomaly.

Corners are a stand-alone set piece element of the game. There is absolutely no need why there should be a correlation between the way a team plays and how they take corners.

Yet there is a clear correlation.

I would argue that a little more planning from corners would potentially add big dividends to our team. Even at my (admittedly high) amateur level of football, we practiced several different corner routines and everyone was well drilled in where to stand and where to run in each different routine. It seems Poch has a blind spot for dead balls - evidenced by his surprising nonchalance and unpreparedness over who took the penalty against City when there was a dispute between Lamela and Son.

You think Poch has just missed this? Do you think that Conte has missed it? Guardiola? Mourinho? Wenger?

Or do you think that they've considered this and come to the conclusion that there are better ways of creating goals that lead to better long term outcomes?

I would like to see some substantial improvement on corners.

How many goals do you think we should have scored from corners by this point? What would you sacrifice to get better at corners? Swap Kane for Rondon? Alderweireld for McAuley?

 

[scaramanga]

Possibly, but @SteveAWOL posted that last season, when Lamela took 99 of our corners, we scored 10 goals from corners. In Poch's first season, we scored 6. We do seem particularly low this season, I'm sure luck also plays a part (Toby hit the post the other day from an Eriksen corner, for example).

I don't think it's anything major for us to worry about, though it would be nice if we were a bit better at them.

Last season Chelsea led the league in corners scored, this season they're average. I can't say for certain, but I'm sure Leicester scored loads last season too.

I think there's so much chance involved in tactics like corners that natural variation will be fairly large. In order to swing the variation heavily one way you really do need to Pulis the fudge out of it.

I agree that there's no reason why we shouldn't make simple, cost-free changes like having Lamela take the corners when he's available. I do dispute the notion that scoring a lot from corners doesn't come with a cost and the notion that doing so is worthwhile.

 

[the dza]

I think there's so much chance involved in tactics like corners that natural variation will be fairly large. In order to swing the variation heavily one way you really do need to Pulis the fudge out of it.

I agree that there's no reason why we shouldn't make simple, cost-free changes like having Lamela take the corners when he's available. I do dispute the notion that scoring a lot from corners doesn't come with a cost and the notion that doing so is worthwhile.

I agree with all of that.

 

[parklane1]

An alternative (and more nuanced) way of looking at those same data is that if we changed literally everything about the club - it's ethos, playing staff, manager, tactics, training, etc it might gain us a goal from a corner every three matches. That's without taking into account the massive damage that setting up like that would do to our ability to score by other methods and to win corners in the first place.

Looking down that table, the first team that plays football is Liverpool. So we could work hard at doing what Liverpool do at corners (if that's even a measurable thing) and gain ourselves a goal from a corner every 6 matches. I suspect there are far more efficient methods of adding to our goal tally.

So let's look at what "normal" is in terms of goals scored from corners. It's pretty clear from the table above that "normal" for goals scored from corners over 24 matches is 4 - let's be generous and say 4.5. So we are 2.5 goals below "normal" over 24 matches, or one goal from a corner every 5.3 matches.

Or maybe we're just a statistical anomaly away from being bang average, considering the sample size.

Now let's take this up a level. Plot yourself a correlation between corners won and goals scored in a season - there's a very clear correlation. Teams that create lots of corners score lots of goals. Sensible really - better teams spend more time attacking, they have more possession, etc. Now look at who tops those goals scored tables; only Liverpool are above average in goals from corners. Take a look at the table above - those that score lots of goals from corners are not teams that score lots of goals from open play. That suggests to me that there's a chance that setting up to score from corners is detrimental to a team's ability to score from open play.

Football isn't as simple as Pulisball = goals, otherwise everyone would be playing Pulisball and we'd all be scoring a fudgepile of goals.

i do tend to agree with this, fans get so caught up in what type of corners we take/ score from. Its the same with free kicks and the moans we hear about how few we score from them. The truth is there is not a lot of difference between most clubs sucsess/failure rate. I keep being told what a great free kick/corner taker old Golden balls was but in reality the percentage he actually got a result from ( compered to the many he took) was not far from the norm.

 

[scaramanga]

i do tend to agree with this, fans get so caught up in what type of corners we take/ score from. Its the same with free kicks and the moans we hear about how few we score from them. The truth is there is not a lot of difference between most clubs sucsess/failure rate. I keep being told what a great free kick/corner taker old Golden balls was but in reality the percentage he actually got a result from ( compered to the many he took) was not far from the norm.

Used to be called the Match of the Day effect.

Fans watch their own match and see a fairly standard 0 goals from set pieces scored. They then go and watch MotD and over the course of 9 matches see a few set piece goals. Fans brains do their usual pattern spotting and extrapolation (as they're evolved to do) and fans get angry that their own team doesn't score enough set pieces.

 

[parklane1]

Used to be called the Match of the Day effect.

Fans watch their own match and see a fairly standard 0 goals from set pieces scored. They then go and watch MotD and over the course of 9 matches see a few set piece goals. Fans brains do their usual pattern spotting and extrapolation (as they're evolved to do) and fans get angry that their own team doesn't score enough set pieces.

Very good point.