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Olympic games Paris 2024

Really pleased for Simone Biles as well. After all the brick she took after during and after Tokyo 2020 that performance yesterday was the perfect way to answer her critics. Didn’t realise she is only 4 foot 8!
 
DubSpur said:
Part tongue in cheek, part serious. The core for me here is the safety of the boxers and it shouldn't take second place to what someone finds distasteful. Unfortunately in the modern world people are too quick to jump on something as distasteful or find it offensive.

Biologically the XY chromosome is male. Maybe I should have worded it clearer and said that the XY is genotypic male and separate from the phenotypic sex and what a person identifies as for the more sensitive souls here. For something like boxing it should be a clear requirement to box in the women's categories the person should have XX chromosomes. Again this is not about what the person identifies as.
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I have in no way shape or form said that the safety of boxers should take second place. I have explicitly said that I don't have the solutions on what should be done. I brought up language I thought was distasteful explicitly saying that this what was I was doing.

You now say you could have worded it more clearly. Cheers.

Personally I think it's good if someone calls me out if the words I use are needlessly offensive. I have no issue with people being offensive, but I have a clear preference for being so on purpose, consciously, willingly, as a choice. Instead of as a byproduct of normalised offensive language towards marginalised groups.

Apparently you don't appreciate that kind of feedback? You'd rather use language that is distasteful and could be hurtful towards others and not know about it?
 
Grays_1890 said:
From what I can tell now, based on what I have read and pieced together that Khelif was 100% born a biological woman and the complexity comes from having high male testosterone and XY chromosomes which can happy, so claims she is a man and trans are way off.

Also appears that because any test by the IBA and IOC are done without disclosing what they are and the results fully that its added to any confusion. Seems this is as much a political point scoring cluster fcuk as it is "why are we letting a man fight in womens sport". It could all be ended with some factual statements from both bodies who I think are the ones doing the sport a disservice, not Khelif who everyone seems angry at.
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It is impossible for Khelif to be a woman with an XY chromosone. Khelif may have DSD but that does not stop him being a man. Caster Semenya has DSD and is a man.

As noted above, DSD is not the same as a person claiming to identify as a woman when he is a man (Lia Thomas etc). Some Trans activists use DSD to confuse the issue of whether sex is binary (there is no confusion, sex is binary). Khelif may not be a cheat in the same manner as Lia Thomas, but it's still not safe for him to box against women.
 
braineclipse said:
This to me is distasteful. Not having a go, not blaming you if this is something you're not familiar with, many people aren't and my knowledge too it's limited.

I don't think we know the full story yet, we may never know. If true that this fighter has XY chromosomes I think the most likely explanation is that she's intersex. In that case her primary sexual characteristics are very likely to be those typically associated with females. Intersex people can have XY chromosomes and appear physically as either male or female from birth.

Calling an intersex person who has identified as a woman all her life, and probably lived most of her life knowing nothing about her genetic makeup, a man is imo not anywhere near ok.

The issues around intersex people and competition in high level sports are difficult and I won't pretend to have all the answers. But this kind of language certainly isn't part of the solution.

Intersex people exist. Some of them are quite conscious about their looks not fitting all that neatly into the typical gender binary. Having people all over the world saying "he's a man", or "XY therefore man" isn't true and can be very hurtful. Potentially for this particular boxer (how could I know for sure), but also for other intersex people. Or even just for people who aren't intersex, but are self conscious about a part of their physical appearance not fitting into the "gender binary".


DSD or intersex people do exist though even if it's rare. They don't fit neatly into the binary. Pretending that they do isn't good, useful or true.
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Every person with DSD is either male or female. Pretending that there is a third sex, or that sex is a spectrum, is an ideological stance, not a scientific one.

People can identify as they wish, but in some contexts sex matters. Combat sport is one of those contexts. Safety and fairness are more important than hurt feelings.
 
braineclipse said:
I have in no way shape or form said that the safety of boxers should take second place. I have explicitly said that I don't have the solutions on what should be done. I brought up language I thought was distasteful explicitly saying that this what was I was doing.

You now say you could have worded it more clearly. Cheers.

Personally I think it's good if someone calls me out if the words I use are needlessly offensive. I have no issue with people being offensive, but I have a clear preference for being so on purpose, consciously, willingly, as a choice. Instead of as a byproduct of normalised offensive language towards marginalised groups.

Apparently you don't appreciate that kind of feedback? You'd rather use language that is distasteful and could be hurtful towards others and not know about it?
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The conversation was obviously about biology and not identity politics. You're typical of the woke phalanx, trying to find offense in everything.

To paraphrase that great philosopher Ricky Gervais, you've the right to tell me that you find something distasteful (offended) and I've the right not to give a fudge.
 
Pádraig Plaisteach said:
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Colin Wright works for a right wing thinktank (Manhatten Institure) and is presenting at an organisation that was set up to solely protect women's sport which might suggest an echo chamber effect. There are plenty of reputable publications that argue that sex in non-binary. That isn't just 'idealogy'.There is genuine scientific discourse on this.

Biologically the definition is a male produces numerous, small gametes and females produce fewer, more energy rich gametes. In humans this tends to correlate to the XY/XY chromosome definition but is not totally binary. The Y chromosome has a significant role in activating the 60+ other chromosomal regions that play a role in transitioning the 'female' embryo to the male but it isn't the only player in the game
 
Lost Mango said:
Colin Wright works for a right wing thinktank (Manhatten Institure) and is presenting at an organisation that was set up to solely protect women's sport which might suggest an echo chamber effect. There are plenty of reputable publications that argue that sex in non-binary. That isn't just 'idealogy'.There is genuine scientific discourse on this.

Biologically the definition is a male produces numerous, small gametes and females produce fewer, more energy rich gametes. In humans this tends to correlate to the XY/XY chromosome definition but is not totally binary. The Y chromosome has a significant role in activating the 60+ other chromosomal regions that play a role in transitioning the 'female' embryo to the male but it isn't the only player in the game
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Colin Wright is a biologist. There is no reputable peer-reviewed science supporting the claim that sex is other than binary. There are two types of gametes, large and small.

Science is not a left v right issue. The fact that women's sport needs protecting tells us what we need to now. The attempts by men to enter women's sports have nothing to do science and everything to do with a reactionary and anti-scientific ideology which threatens the progress made by women and LGB people in the last century.
 
Bedfordspurs said:
They are both women
One has an issue with her genes
She hasn’t chosen to be something else
IMO she shouldn’t be allowed to compete against women and she has a clear physical advantage
But it doesn’t mean she isn’t one
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It is impossible to be a woman with an XY chromosome.
 
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braineclipse said:
I rather directly said that I don't know or have very strong opinions on what the correct way is to deal with intersex people and top level sport.

I would argue that all people who compete in top level sports have genetic advantages, some more than others. I'm not sure where the line should be drawn.

There was really only one part of your post I was referring to. I could have been clearer about. What I was referring to was the sentence "...are still men if they have an XY chromosome." That imo is factually incorrect and also hurtful.

A wording like the one you used in your latest post I think is much more useful, and also gets more to what the core of the issue is. Because it seems rather obvious to me that the issue isn't that this boxer is a man.

As for your claim that I care more about being woke than a womans safety... I don't know what to think about that. Heat of the moment insult? Or what you actually think of me based on a careful reading of my post and opinion on this? Fun little throwaway standard comment to make about people who disagree with you on an issue like this? Something else?

Please let me know what you actually meant by that so I can respond appropriately.
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I think what frustrates people about this is it feels like female athletes in certain sports have been hung out to dry with not enough people willing to speak out and say hang on, it’s not fair if a trans athlete competes against women and dominates the field or a situation like yesterday in the boxing which I accept isn’t like for like situation for trans participation in sport. A lot of celebrities and/or athletes, present or retired will get on their soap box and preach about politics or certain wars but nothing about scenarios like this. It’s left to people like Sharron Davies and Riley Gaines to be vocal about it, and they get called “transphobic” often for their trouble. Admittedly I understand why a lot of current athletes are afraid to speak out about it but it shouldn’t be that way, it’s wrong that they feel they have to keep quiet.
 
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