Nuno Espírito Santo - Sacked

[braineclipse]

In defence of Nuno, his identity as a manager is that he’s pragmatic. That he isn’t going to come to a club with his pre planned playbook and roll it out exactly as he did before. Poch’s identity was pressing, using youth, full backs high, attacking football.

So I think in Poch’s first few games, we got what he was trying to do. Some players could handle it, some couldn’t. Maybe what we are seeing is Nuno going through a process of figuring it out. It looks like he’s tried a few different styles to see what really suits the players we have.

At Wolves he had some great long passers in the team so there was a lot of long switches of play, and he probably wanted to see what we could do in that respect yesterday. He’s tried going high press from the off. He’s tried the counter. He’s tried patience until the second half.

I kinda wish he had settled on something before the season started, but he literally didn’t have all the players available. And if his identity as a manager is pragmatism, we are seeing the manifestation of that right now. Maybe after 10 games we’ll be 8th, and maybe after 38 we’ll be 5th. I am hoping he is learning a lot from this, about what the players can and can’t do. And he’s using it all to get us into the perfect system for us. Maybe the sheer extent of the experimentation means the learnings are more pronounced.

I’m saying this as much in hope as expectation. Because I really don’t want us to have to get on another path with another guy again. And I really hope Nuno‘a authority sustains itself through this experimentation period if that is indeed what he is doing.

Up until the Arsenal game there had been quite a bit of consistency I thought.

Varying between a higher press and standing off more is to me a feature of his style, not him changing it.

Counter attacking when we can is a consistent feature of his style. Just that teams realise that this is our main (sometimes only) threat. Stop us from counter attacking and you more or less nullify us as an attacking force.

I think going long quite a bit is also part of his style. The way we did it against Arsenal, as shown in that Carragher video, that was new. Getting players forward around the initial duel is vital to succeeding when playing long balls, but there's that and there's leaving a ton of space to be exploited when you lose the ball.

We quite literally got into a situation where Arsenal could have based their entire attacking strategy on just giving us the ball, be organised and wait for the long ball. Dier or Sanchez in controlled possession wasn't a good thing for us, it was a good thing for them.

That cannot happen again. It shouldn't have been allowed to happen at all of course, but Nuno will adjust.

 

[braineclipse]

Latest episode from the extra inch podcast gives a good analysis of what happened and what Nuno tried/failed to do. Haven't listened to all of it yet, but I agree entirely with what I've heard so far. Not the same points as Carragher, but complementary views.

Some key points for those that don't feel like listening:

-14 minutes until we got meaningful possession to Ndombele in the opposition half. Mostly bypassing midfield with long balls, both under pressure and by choice.

-Player selection based on long balls and counter pressing. Giving up on playing through midfield. For some reason asking Ndombele to play that way.

-Some positives to build on from the Chelsea first half, Wolves game, but not trying to build on that in the first half for reasons that are hard to understand.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The selections are immaterial. Any manager coming in will be selecting players that they’ll bin off. In Poch’s case, the troublemakers had to be weeded out.

But no matter who he had on the pitch, I don’t recall us playing as badly as the recent game at Palace, the second half v Chelsea or the game yesterday. We had some poor results and got a couple of hidings (City and Liverpool). But I genuinely don’t remember us being as bad as we’ve been the last 3 games and Poch setting us up as incompetently as Nuno did yesterday.

Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Brom were awful

 

[Robspur12]

I’d say that we got an idea of how Poch wanted to play with his team at Southampton and the hope was he’d get that style with us.

Nuno’s problem is we know how he played at Wolves and it wasn’t pretty, the thought of that being as good as it gets is a worry.

I always thought Wolves played decent football under Nuno. With players like Neves, Moutinho, Jiotta, Jiminez and Traore, they never struck me as defensive. They pressed us high and were very accomplished. Wolves always gave us a good game and beat us a couple of times. He wasn't my first choice but I wasn't unhappy when he was appointed.

Not going to pretend that Sunday didn't hurt but I must be in the minority that wants to give Nuno a chance. Far too early imo, to talk about sacking

 

[AdamB]

The selections are immaterial. Any manager coming in will be selecting players that they’ll bin off. In Poch’s case, the troublemakers had to be weeded out.

But no matter who he had on the pitch, I don’t recall us playing as badly as the recent game at Palace, the second half v Chelsea or the game yesterday. We had some poor results and got a couple of hidings (City and Liverpool). But I genuinely don’t remember us being as bad as we’ve been the last 3 games and Poch setting us up as incompetently as Nuno did yesterday.

Agreed. He looks massively out of his depth. I think if we lose the next 2-3 PL games he'll be gone

The Villa game in particular is massive for his future

 

[AdamB]

I always thought Wolves played decent football under Nuno. With players like Neves, Moutinho, Jiotta, Jiminez and Traore, they never struck me as defensive. They pressed us high and were very accomplished. Wolves always have us a good game and beat us a couple of times. He wasn't my first choice but I wasn't unhappy when he was appointed.

Not going to pretend that Sunday didn't hurt but I must be in the minority that wants to give Nuno a chance. Far too early imo, to talk about sacking

But given his defensive, low-scoring style, do you think he even has a chance to 'make it' at Spurs? With those tactics, he'd need to finish top 4 and win trophies IMO. Spurs fans won't accept a boring team that finishes 5th/6th

 

[afsoc4life]

Disgusted with fans who uttered vile abuse at Nuno. There is no excuse.

 

[afsoc4life]

We're currently 11th

I meant in January

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

I always thought Wolves played decent football under Nuno. With players like Neves, Moutinho, Jiotta, Jiminez and Traore, they never struck me as defensive. They pressed us high and were very accomplished. Wolves always gave us a good game and beat us a couple of times. He wasn't my first choice but I wasn't unhappy when he was appointed.

Not going to pretend that Sunday didn't hurt but I must be in the minority that wants to give Nuno a chance. Far too early imo, to talk about sacking

Yea I think I was in the minority in not particularly rating Wolves style/Nuno even when the fanfare was happening a couple of years ago over them/him. They looked a good counter attacking side on their day with Jota, Traoré, Jiminez, Neto, but I never really remember them dictating play too much (having the ball against us under Jose is no example, even West Brom did!)

 

[Baleforce]

I always thought Wolves played decent football under Nuno. With players like Neves, Moutinho, Jiotta, Jiminez and Traore, they never struck me as defensive. They pressed us high and were very accomplished. Wolves always gave us a good game and beat us a couple of times. He wasn't my first choice but I wasn't unhappy when he was appointed.

Not going to pretend that Sunday didn't hurt but I must be in the minority that wants to give Nuno a chance. Far too early imo, to talk about sacking

If he’d lost every game 5-0 it would still be too early to talk about sacking, we know the squad is full of bottle job clams that live for undermining the manager.

This is going to take time, we are in a deep hole, he’s had the courage to jump down into it with us to try and help, that deserves respect, appreciation and patience imo.

 

[StephenH]

we know the squad is full of bottle job clams that live for undermining the manager.

Do we know this?
really?
That’s totally over the top.

 

[Nigeyman]

Do we know this?
really?
That’s totally over the top.

think the statement has some traction.

Seems like since the dawn of ages we have a mentality issue, and the modern day player is selfish particularly if the coach isn’t playing them.

not a big fan of the modern day player tbh. Poch made great strides with the club’s mentality though sadly couldn’t get it over the line…not all his fault.

Yet I’m also coming round to what I think is that Nuno isn’t the character we need and is a terrible fit for us.

Thing is though, if say for bricks and giggles we brought in Harry Redknapp as an emergency temporary appointment…we would be posting much better stats than we are now, and actually enjoy some of our performances.

 

[AdamB]

We know the squad is full of bottle job clams that live for undermining the manager.
.

I dont buy this statement or notion. We've had a lot of turnover of players since, say, the CL final - see below. There have been far too many changes to blame it on players' mentality

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/news/2019/may/travelling-squad-for-champions-league-final/

"Our travelling squad for the Champions League Final.
1. Hugo Lloris
2. Kieran Trippier - GONE
3. Danny Rose - GONE
4. Toby Alderweireld - GONE
5. Jan Vertonghen - GONE
6. Davinson Sanchez
7. Heung-Min Son
8. Harry Winks - NO LONGER PART OF THE FIRST 11 (OR EVEN 20 ON SUNDAY)
10. Harry Kane
11. Erik Lamela - GONE
12. Victor Wanyama - GONE
13. Michel Vorm - GONE
15. Eric Dier
16. Kyle Walker-Peters - GONE
17. Moussa Sissoko - GONE
18. Fernando Llorente - GONE
20. Dele Alli
21. Juan Foyth - GONE
22. Paulo Gazzaniga - GONE
23. Christian Eriksen - GONE
24. Serge Aurier - GONE
27. Lucas Moura
33. Ben Davies
41. Alfie Whiteman - WAS JUST MAKING UP THE NUMBERS
47. George Marsh - WAS JUST MAKING UP THE NUMBERS
52. Oliver Skipp - WAS JUST MAKING UP THE NUMBERS"

 

[Finney Is Back]

I agree
But he played the best football in Spain when he was there
I can’t comment on his team in Portugal though as I didn’t watch them
What he did of though was take Rio Ave to europa for the first time in their history
His Porto side finished second and he was sacked
Poch left his team in Spain bottom yet he got the Southampton job

Did he though? Did any of us actually watch them to have an opinion on that?

 

[Finney Is Back]

Didn't watch the game live as I expected us to not turn up as usual at their place.
Watched Carragher's take on our game plan, dear oh dear what an absolute shambles. Surprised we didn't get spanked 5 or 6 nil.

Had Arsenal not stopped committing players forward once 3-0 up then we probably would've. I have never ever seen a top level (?) team constantly leave such a huge chasm of space in front of a 2 centre backs before Sunday.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Yea I think I was in the minority in not particularly rating Wolves style/Nuno even when the fanfare was happening a couple of years ago over them/him. They looked a good counter attacking side on their day with Jota, Traoré, Jiminez, Neto, but I never really remember them dictating play too much (having the ball against us under Jose is no example, even West Brom did!)

They were one of the teams that I would make a point of not watching if their game was on TV. They had some good players but their games tended to be tedious affairs.

 

[Finney Is Back]

Saudi Sportswashing Machine and West Brom were awful

Sunday was worse than awful. I've seen better organised teams in kids football on Sunday mornings.

 

[Finney Is Back]

think the statement has some traction.

Seems like since the dawn of ages we have a mentality issue, and the modern day player is selfish particularly if the coach isn’t playing them.

not a big fan of the modern day player tbh. Poch made great strides with the club’s mentality though sadly couldn’t get it over the line…not all his fault.

Yet I’m also coming round to what I think is that Nuno isn’t the character we need and is a terrible fit for us.

Thing is though, if say for bricks and giggles we brought in Harry Redknapp as an emergency temporary appointment…we would be posting much better stats than we are now, and actually enjoy some of our performances.

The players have seen the owners of the club fail to bring in a top class manager. Not only that but they have seen (through Sky News being shown at the training ground) the embarrassing search that we conducted before settling on a manager that surely wouldn't even have been in anyone's top 20 best managers in the game. They all know that there is no real ambition from the top for our football club to be the best in the land. That sort of thing rubs off.

 

[Bedfordspurs]

Did he though? Did any of us actually watch them to have an opinion on that?

I did
So that’s just my opinion
It was very attack minded
Not very good defensively

 

[Bedfordspurs]

The players have seen the owners of the club fail to bring in a top class manager. Not only that but they have seen (through Sky News being shown at the training ground) the embarrassing search that we conducted before settling on a manager that surely wouldn't even have been in anyone's top 20 best managers in the game. They all know that there is no real ambition from the top for our football club to be the best in the land. That sort of thing rubs off.

These players did have a manager here who had won everything in the game and couldn’t action his very basic plans