Moussa Sissoko

[Bishop]

Our problem isn’t ability, it’s meteorology, and his is first class.

If we got even 10% of the Sissoko performance to ability ratio from Kane (or Alli, or Son, or Eriksen when he was here) we’d win every game 25-0.

No quality is also an issue. Our defence has problems that are not connected to mentality likewise our midfield especially when Sissoko and Winks are paired together is lower PL table in quality. Neither player is lacking workrate yet we are often outplayed and out muscled by opposition, that again is not a mentality issue, it's a lack of quality and ability to perform in difficult areas.

Strong mentality is great and neccesarly high ability is even more so. Cristiano Ronaldo is not a great purely because he has 100% mentality (he does) but that is also aligned with grade A technique and technical quality.

To pretend mentality is all you need is to really have paid no attention to the make up of what makes a great team.

None of them are lacking quality, it just wouldn't work.

 

[Baleforce]

It’s not all you need no, but you don’t ascend to the level of PL footballer for THFC if you are not elite technically.

I’ve seen Winks shred Madrid, he can, like all of our players, do it when he chooses too, hence I favour the players who choose to apply themselves every single time.

 

[Bishop]

It’s not all you need no, but you don’t ascend to the level of PL footballer for THFC if you are not elite technically.

I’ve seen Winks shred Madrid, he can, like all of our players, do it when he chooses too, hence I favour the players who choose to apply themselves every single time.

Of course all PL players are good technically compared to the lad on the streets but that's a straw man argument.

How do they compare to their contemporaries, very clearly Sissoko is not elite technically, you're lying to yourself if you think he is compared to his peers. I've said it dozens of times, if this guy played for Arsenal you would not be jealous you wouldn't wish we had signed him instead, you'd laugh.

Regarding winks the Madrid performance is overstated. Madrid are not a tight pressing unit, they WILL let you play because they believe they will get the best of the exchanges. So winks given a year of time to play the ball sure he did well but that's a one off and not something that should be being referred to 2 years later. What has he done since, which key performances can you even refer to this past season?

That match was an anomaly, not the norm.

 

[Baleforce]

Of course all PL players are good technically compared to the lad on the streets but that's a straw man argument.

How do they compare to their contemporaries, very clearly Sissoko is not elite technically, you're lying to yourself if you think he is compared to his peers. I've said it dozens of times, if this guy played for Arsenal you would not be jealous you wouldn't wish we had signed him instead, you'd laugh.

Regarding winks the Madrid performance is overstated. Madrid are not a tight pressing unit, they WILL let you play because they believe they will get the best of the exchanges. So winks given a year of time to play the ball sure he did well but that's a one off and not something that should be being referred to 2 years later. What has he done since, which key performances can you even refer to this past season?

That match was an anomaly, not the norm.

He’s elite physically, it’s a spectrum, he’s stronger than most by other metrics.

If he was at Arsenal he’d play just as much as he does for us, or City, or United for that matter, athleticism is important in athletics.

It was an anomaly because Winks is mentally weak, he’s not the only one, most of our squad are, if he played with that arrogance every weak he’d boss most games.

Expected performance is a ratchet action, players should always be judged against their best performance.

 

[Bishop]

He’s elite physically, it’s a spectrum, he’s stronger than most by other metrics.

If he was at Arsenal he’d play just as much as he does for us, or City, or United for that matter, athleticism is important in athletics.

It was an anomaly because Winks is mentally weak, he’s not the only one, most of our squad are, if he played with that arrogance every weak he’d boss most games.

Expected performance is a ratchet action, players should always be judged against their best performance.

He would never get into the City squad period, let alone play as many games for them as he has done for us. That is sheer delusion.

I also doubt Arsenal with their over emphasis on technical midgets would have ever have bought him either, United who knows but again doubt he would ever have even have bought by them.

No players should be judged against their average performance level. The best simply have a much higher average performance level. There are many players who due to circumstances have performed at several levels above their realistically achievable level.

It's great that he is elite physically but he's not a track field athlete, he's a football player and the ball will always travel faster when passed than he can run with it (and then lose control of it).

Considering how elite you think he is in attributes that actually matter for a CM pray tell why have the Barcelonas, Reals or even City not come in for him? Maybe it's because those successful teams are aware that there is more to midfield than having stamina and running around with no control. [emoji848]

 

[Baleforce]

He would never get into the City squad period, let alone play as many games for them as he has done for us. That is sheer delusion.

I also doubt Arsenal with their over emphasis on technical midgets would have ever have bought him either, United who knows but again doubt he would ever have even have bought by them.

No players should be judged against their average performance level. The best simply have a much higher average performance level. There are many players who due to circumstances have performed at several levels above their realistically achievable level.

It's great that he is elite physically but he's not a track field athlete, he's a football player and the ball will always travel faster when passed than he can run with it (and then lose control of it).

Considering how elite you think he is in attributes that actually matter for a CM pray tell why have the Barcelonas, Reals or even City not come in for him? Maybe it's because those successful teams are aware that there is more to midfield than having stamina and running around with no control. [emoji848]

They’ve all utilised players of similar ability.

The ball isn’t always relevant in top level football, manipulation of space is more often the deciding factor. Players like Sissoko make the pitch smaller and reduce the options for manipulation.

To counter your argument, if he has no value, how come two of the best managers in the modern game have played him so regularly?

 

[Bishop]

They’ve all utilised players of similar ability.

The ball isn’t always relevant in top level football, manipulation of space is more often the deciding factor. Players like Sissoko make the pitch smaller and reduce the options for manipulation.

To counter your argument, if he has no value, how come two of the best managers in the modern game have played him so regularly?

They don't utilise players of similar limited skillsets. Who are are you thinking of?

Regarding managers one of those managers got the sack primarily because the quality of the football and the results kept on decreasing no confidence that happened in correlation to Sissoko's continued deployment. With Mourinho let's see what he does, but I'll say it now if Sissoko continues to pay as many games as he has Jose will also get the sack sooner rather than later.

 

[Baleforce]

They don't utilise players of similar limited skillsets. Who are are you thinking of?

Regarding managers one of those managers got the sack primarily because the quality of the football and the results kept on decreasing no confidence that happened in correlation to Sissoko's continued deployment. With Mourinho let's see what he does, but I'll say it now if Sissoko continues to pay as many games as he has Jose will also get the sack sooner rather than later.

Milner, Rakitic, Delph, Paulinho, Mascherano, Song

Also, let’s not forget that Barca played Countinho over 50 times, how much of a limited skill set do you want?

 

[Bishop]

Milner, Rakitic, Delph, Paulinho, Mascherano, Song

Also, let’s not forget that Barca played Countinho over 50 times, how much of a limited skill set do you want?

The only one of those players even close to Sissoko in quality is Delph and no he didn't play as much as Sissoko does and when he did play he played at LB.

There is a chasm level of quality difference between Sissoko and the players you mentioned. He is not comparable to them at all.

 

[scaramanga]

Milner, Rakitic, Delph, Paulinho, Mascherano, Song

Also, let’s not forget that Barca played Countinho over 50 times, how much of a limited skill set do you want?

Mascherano is much, much better on the ball than Sissoko.

Yet he was so bad on the ball they moved him into defence from midfield.

 

[Baleforce]

The only one of those players even close to Sissoko in quality is Delph and no he didn't play as much as Sissoko does and when he did play he played at LB.

There is a chasm level of quality difference between Sissoko and the players you mentioned. He is not comparable to them at all.

I think so too, he’s actually useful.

 

[K.D.D.D.D.Soc]

He's an amazing character, I cant remember a player who has split the fanbase since I've been support Spurs. Many people didnt rate John Pratt but Bill Nicholson played him regularly, which tells me people who work with players day to day see far more than "fans".

 

[Raziel]

For me it's really simple I have incredibly high standards for what I expect from a midfield player. Sissoko certainly does not match those standards, he really doesn't even come close. Likewise Winks doesn't either.

I've given him credit when it's due, it's just so rarely due that you might as well say I dont.

That is my particular bias as a former CM myself I just believe the position requires certain attributes, I will never change that opinion and the likes of Sissoko and Jenas before him I will never consider good enough.

Now sure if you want to keep finishing 6th (and notice how the quality of our football and the points totals and finishing positions decreases the more he plays) then coo. His endeavour you may consider good enough. But none not one single rival for a top 4 place would consistently play him and not one of the serious title challengers would even have him in their squad.

So bury you head in the sand, be super fans if you wish and ignore the glaring truth. He is not a good player and he is not good enough for where we want to be. Unless upper midtable is where you want to end up.

I'm a little confused here mate?

- Is anyone actually asking for Sissoko to be first choice/starter?

I think most of us (I'll speak for myself), see the guy as a utility/bench option that brings energy/power to our game (and this is probably where I differ from you, replacing one of a midfield pair of Dier/Winks with Sissoko actually does improve the squad. Our squad tends to be low tempo on bad days and often can get bullied, doesn't happen with Sissoko). I'd also question your judgment on Jenas, because as a player/talent/athlete, he was more than good enough, he just didn't have the drive, if he had Sissko's mentality he would have been a top level player.

Summary, Sissoko/Winks should not walk into our first 11 in top competitions for me, but both are good squad players who simply make no financial sense to replace (other priorities) at this point.

 

[Bishop]

I'm a little confused here mate?

- Is anyone actually asking for Sissoko to be first choice/starter?

I think most of us (I'll speak for myself), see the guy as a utility/bench option that brings energy/power to our game (and this is probably where I differ from you, replacing one of a midfield pair of Dier/Winks with Sissoko actually does improve the squad. Our squad tends to be low tempo on bad days and often can get bullied, doesn't happen with Sissoko). I'd also question your judgment on Jenas, because as a player/talent/athlete, he was more than good enough, he just didn't have the drive, if he had Sissko's meteorology he would have been a top level player.

Summary, Sissoko/Winks should not walk into our first 11 in top competitions for me, but both are good squad players who simply make no financial sense to replace (other priorities) at this point.

The conversation kind of went in a number of directions so may have lost its initial purpose. There are definitely a few in here who think he should start, look at the guy above he thinks he better than Maschreno was [emoji38].

Where we do differ is I don't believe Sissoko, Winks or Dier are good enough in CM. It's much of a muchness with them, each lacking in key areas.

I'd rather a world where none is even close to starting a game in CM with the caveat that potentially Winks can do more if not given the responsibility of being the deep pivot. That role seems to play on his mind and inhibits his play.

I disagree that we don't get bullied, pretty much every game that Sissoko has played in CM has seen the opposition dominate the ball in midfield now whether you call that physical domination or technical is immaterial the end result is the same. Our defence comes under too much pressure and lack of ball quality in midfield means we struggle to rein that pressure in.

Sissoko isn't the be all and end all of our issues but he is a massive contributor. He hides from the ball when we have it deep, when he isn't misplacing the pass he typically plays backwards slowing the flow and ruining the momentum. By no measure can this guy be considered a good player and I'll keep repeating the same thing if he played for our rivals not a single one of us would envious and deisring we had signed him instead.

There's a cloud that blinds fans to the inadequecies of their own players because we have that tribal desire to support our own but clear the bias from your eyes (not you in particular) and you see a very poor player and one the manager himself said would not play in that position given the choice because hes not up to it.

Jenas much like Sissoko was an athlete and not a football player. Mentality is overstated when lack of football brain is the real issue. Some players make it because they physically look the part. Coincidentally both players best attribute is their stamina. Not their passing, not their movement, not their control, not their dribbling, not their game intelligence, not their shooting, not their creativity (pan). So basically none of the things that actually make a decent football player.

 

[harr1984]

The conversation kind of went in a number of directions so may have lost its initial purpose. There are definitely a few in here who think he should start, look at the guy above he thinks he better than Maschreno was [emoji38].

Where we do differ is I don't believe Sissoko, Winks or Dier are good enough in CM. It's much of a muchness with them, each lacking in key areas.

I'd rather a world where none is even close to starting a game in CM with the caveat that potentially Winks can do more if not given the responsibility of being the deep pivot. That role seems to play on his mind and inhibits his play.

I disagree that we don't get bullied, pretty much every game that Sissoko has played in CM has seen the opposition dominate the ball in midfield now whether you call that physical domination or technical is immaterial the end result is the same. Our defence comes under too much pressure and lack of ball quality in midfield means we struggle to rein that pressure in.

Sissoko isn't the be all and end all of our issues but he is a massive contributor. He hides from the ball when we have it deep, when he isn't misplacing the pass he typically plays backwards slowing the flow and ruining the momentum. By no measure can this guy be considered a good player and I'll keep repeating the same thing if he played for our rivals not a single one of us would envious and deisring we had signed him instead.

There's a cloud that blinds fans to the inadequecies of their own players because we have that tribal desire to support our own but clear the bias from your eyes (not you in particular) and you see a very poor player and one the manager himself said would not play in that position given the choice because hes not up to it.

Jenas much like Sissoko was an athlete and not a football player. meteorology is overstated when lack of football brain is the real issue. Some players make it because they physically look the part. Coincidentally both players best attribute is their stamina. Not their passing, not their movement, not their control, not their dribbling, not their game intelligence, not their shooting, not their creativity (pan). So basically none of the things that actually make a decent football player.

You make some agreeable points but also some questionable ones. Sissoko hides from the ball when we have it deep? Must be my imagination the amount of times he has picked the ball up deep, and driven forward powerfully breaking the lines - and this has been done several times, one thing he does not do is hide.

As for Jenas not being a footballer?! He was a great athlete, but most definitely had the technical ability - he scored 21 goals for us, including some crackers - that is no fluke. look at the goal away to Arsenal in the 4-4 game where he picked up the ball almost on the halfway line, drove forward and cut inside onto his weaker foot and curler it beautifully into the corner. Then there was the strike from outside the box at home to Arsenal. Then there was that free kick he scored at Old Trafford, and I could go on. To suggest he was not a footballer is ridiculous, and one of those fluffy comments that mean nothing considering they are er, footballers operating in the biggest league in the world. Jenas' issues was he didn't have the drive to reach those real top levels, and maybe the belief too - but a good player he most definitely was nonetheless.....

 

[elltrev]

You make some agreeable points but also some questionable ones. Sissoko hides from the ball when we have it deep? Must be my imagination the amount of times he has picked the ball up deep, and driven forward powerfully breaking the lines - and this has been done several times, one thing he does not do is hide.

As for Jenas not being a footballer?! He was a great athlete, but most definitely had the technical ability - he scored 21 goals for us, including some crackers - that is no fluke. look at the goal away to Arsenal in the 4-4 game where he picked up the ball almost on the halfway line, drove forward and cut inside onto his weaker foot and curler it beautifully into the corner. Then there was the strike from outside the box at home to Arsenal. Then there was that free kick he scored at Old Trafford, and I could go on. To suggest he was not a footballer is ridiculous, and one of those fluffy comments that mean nothing considering they are er, footballers operating in the biggest league in the world. Jenas' issues was he didn't have the drive to reach those real top levels, and maybe the belief too - but a good player he most definitely was nonetheless.....

I agree he does do that occasionally, but I also agree with harr1984 that he hides too much overall. And I'd argue that's supported by the stats on the number of passes he makes compared to his fellow central midfielders, e.g.

Vs Palace - 45 per 90 mins, compared to Winks' 67 and Lo Celso's 59 (despite Lo Celso playing higher up the pitch as a #10).

Or across the whole season, per 90 mins:

Winks: 68
Lo Celso: 58
Ndombele: 56
Sissoko: 46

 

[Bedfordspurs]

You make some agreeable points but also some questionable ones. Sissoko hides from the ball when we have it deep? Must be my imagination the amount of times he has picked the ball up deep, and driven forward powerfully breaking the lines - and this has been done several times, one thing he does not do is hide.

As for Jenas not being a footballer?! He was a great athlete, but most definitely had the technical ability - he scored 21 goals for us, including some crackers - that is no fluke. look at the goal away to Arsenal in the 4-4 game where he picked up the ball almost on the halfway line, drove forward and cut inside onto his weaker foot and curler it beautifully into the corner. Then there was the strike from outside the box at home to Arsenal. Then there was that free kick he scored at Old Trafford, and I could go on. To suggest he was not a footballer is ridiculous, and one of those fluffy comments that mean nothing considering they are er, footballers operating in the biggest league in the world. Jenas' issues was he didn't have the drive to reach those real top levels, and maybe the belief too - but a good player he most definitely was nonetheless.....

Jenas would have been world class if he had the mentality

 

[harr1984]

I agree he does do that occasionally, but I also agree with harr1984 that he hides too much overall. And I'd argue that's supported by the stats on the number of passes he makes compared to his fellow central midfielders, e.g.

Vs Palace - 45 per 90 mins, compared to Winks' 67 and Lo Celso's 59 (despite Lo Celso playing higher up the pitch as a #10).

Or across the whole season, per 90 mins:

Winks: 68
Lo Celso: 58
Ndombele: 56
Sissoko: 46

Was responding to Bishop saying he hides from the ball when deep - that is where he does majority of his work. And your stats don’t show that Sissoko hides from the ball, simply that he makes less passes. Of course you’d expect Lo Celso and Winks passing the ball more, they have a different functionality in the team and id be concerned if Sissoko was the one consistently spraying the ball around. But hide, he most definitely does not....

 

[Raziel]

The conversation kind of went in a number of directions so may have lost its initial purpose. There are definitely a few in here who think he should start, look at the guy above he thinks he better than Maschreno was [emoji38].

Where we do differ is I don't believe Sissoko, Winks or Dier are good enough in CM. It's much of a muchness with them, each lacking in key areas.

I'd rather a world where none is even close to starting a game in CM with the caveat that potentially Winks can do more if not given the responsibility of being the deep pivot. That role seems to play on his mind and inhibits his play.

I disagree that we don't get bullied, pretty much every game that Sissoko has played in CM has seen the opposition dominate the ball in midfield now whether you call that physical domination or technical is immaterial the end result is the same. Our defence comes under too much pressure and lack of ball quality in midfield means we struggle to rein that pressure in.

Sissoko isn't the be all and end all of our issues but he is a massive contributor. He hides from the ball when we have it deep, when he isn't misplacing the pass he typically plays backwards slowing the flow and ruining the momentum. By no measure can this guy be considered a good player and I'll keep repeating the same thing if he played for our rivals not a single one of us would envious and deisring we had signed him instead.

There's a cloud that blinds fans to the inadequecies of their own players because we have that tribal desire to support our own but clear the bias from your eyes (not you in particular) and you see a very poor player and one the manager himself said would not play in that position given the choice because hes not up to it.

Jenas much like Sissoko was an athlete and not a football player. meteorology is overstated when lack of football brain is the real issue. Some players make it because they physically look the part. Coincidentally both players best attribute is their stamina. Not their passing, not their movement, not their control, not their dribbling, not their game intelligence, not their shooting, not their creativity (pan). So basically none of the things that actually make a decent football player.

Fair points with a few caveats (and yes this conversation is drifting)

- I don't think Winks, Dier, Sissoko belong in our first 11 (but I'd probably sell the first two quicker)
- For what it's worth, I also think both FB positions need an upgrade and potential rethink.

To me, the issue was/is Spurs plays absolute brick when the pace/tempo of the game is too slow, it allows the opposition to have time to sit back in banks of 4 or 5 and kills our threat, it then forces us to overcommit forward and be vulnerable to counter/long ball over the top to a mediocre defense.

The reason that Sissoko, Aurier, Lamela have seen game time (in my opinion) under two managers when available despite shortcomings is they all bring a higher tempo to the game and they all stick a foot in (I won't argue the Sissoko point further as I'm not trying to justify him, but his runs forward are something he brings and like @harr1984 I don't believe he hides)

 

[Lemonade Money]

Jenas would have been world class if he had the meteorology

We haven't had the what makes a player world class debate for awhile.