Lemonade Money
Les Medley
Or two threads? Pro-Sissoko, and Anti-Sissoko (this one could actually just be a private conversation).I think we should sell Sissoko.
Only so we can lock this thread
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Moussa Sissoko
- Thread starter Jordinho
- Start date
uksb
Jamie Redknapp
I was disagreeing with your point that "Sissoko has taken over the role of being the player in our midfield to progress the ball up the field". But it seems like we agree that actually this is Winks' role.
It will be interesting to see how we line up with Ndombele. I would assume it would be Winks and Ndombele together, with Winks dropping slightly deeper as he does now.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
No, I do think Sissoko has taken more and more responsibility for getting the ball up the field. Though of course it isnt a binary thing in that if Sissoko is doing it then Winks is not.
As Ive stated up thread, I expect NDombele to basically replace Sissoko, and be paired with Winks/Dier as it stands. Possibly Ceballos if he comes in.
I also expect Sissoko to be a squad player and much further from the first team.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Whereas they continually defer to your clearly vastly superior football knowledge.
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Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I agree that N'Dombele is likely to replace Sissoko and play alongside Winks next season. I think Sissoko will be primarily considered as cover/competition for that role in the team. That being said I also think that there will be games where Pochettino plays both N'Dombele and Sissoko together (if Winks is injured/suspended/needs a rest).
I think it is actually Dier who will find himself further from our first team next season (unless Alderweireld goes and Pochettino decides to use Dier there instead of having to use up valuable funds to directly replace him). Not sure how well Dier will take to being a bit part player though?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Whereas they continually defer to your clearly vastly superior football knowledge.
Thats not my angle at all and you know it!
Its more the case that I think most International managers are such because they arent good enough to be club managers, and second to that Intl football is a completely different game. Notably in its quality but mostly in its completely different constraints.
You have very limited resources to choose from, because of that its never as simple as "the best player plays" as its a puzzle youre trying to piece together.
I think I noted the other day (pretty sure it was you) I think we both think very differently on Dier. For me he will always be in/around the team, Poch seems to love him and his versatility.
While I dont doubt Sissokos willingness to have a go in various positions, I dont really think he has that same versatility to offer. So if we are talking "who is just off the first team"? Id personally expect Dier to be next in line.
If we were to assume Poch will look to return to his peak Dembele kind of shape, then I think Dier will have a regular role to play (as he did then) and Sissoko will be no where near as NDombele will be playing whenever he is fit and Winks will be favoured for appearances.
Though, can we assume that? With the potential for Eriksen to leave, and seemingly credible links on both Lo Celso and Ceballos, I have a feeling we may switch to more of a 4-3-3
NDombele, Winks, Dier, Sissoko, Lo Celso, Ceballos, Alli....
I think (on the assumption players settle and perform) there are a few combinations of players that would work as a three, but also that Sissoko will find himself probably furthest down the list. There is more skill, ability and versatility in the others.
Whichever way I cut it I cant see Sissoko as any more than way down the list, likely meaning he is in and out of the matchday squad (sometimes on the bench, sometimes not) and only really looking at starts in those early cup games or total gimmies when we want to rest players for a CL game midweek...
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
France have limited resources to choose from?!?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Every national team does. And finding the right balance of attributes isnt always easy.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
I think the player likely to be furthest down the list in a 4-3-3 would be Dier (unless moving back to centre half?) He is slow (especially on the turn), cumbersome, easily pressed and mistake prone. If I look at the list of players you gave Dier isn't really even a BTec standard back-up for any of them in terms of skillset, which suggests to me that he would be furthest from the first team.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
As I said, we see Dier very differently.
He has been a consistent and key figure under Poch, allowing for us to play a fluid formation, and offering defensive solidity while also being handy enough on the ball. While he might not be top class, I certainly dont think he is anything like as poor as you describe.
Either way - even if Dier was furthest from the team - he would be sat with Sissoko who is a class apart from the rest of them. There would be many players ahead in the pecking order.
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
Lloris
Mandanda
Areola
Maignan
Lecomte
Varane
Lenglet
Laporte
Mangala
Umtiti
Koscielny
Hernandez
Pavard
Zouma
Konate
Mendy
Digne
Kurzawa
Dubois
Sidibe
Bakayoko
Aouar
Pogba
Kongdogbia
Payet
Tolisso
Kante
Rabiot
Ndombele
Sissoko
Matuidi
Coman
Lemar
Thuavin
Fekir
Mbappe
O Dembele
M Dembele
Griezmann
Ben Yedder
Martial
Lacazette
Girioud
And I have probably missed off a lot of good players.... not to mention some less good ones such as N'Zonzi!
Lemonade Money
Les Medley
You'd think people had learnt the wisdom of writing off Sissoko.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
Ive got to be honest, Im a little lost as to what your point is
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
In the players you list.....
Winks/Ceballos - competing for single spot?
Lo Celso/Dele - competing for a single spot?
Sissoko cover for Ndombele
I think that only leaves Dier as cover at centre half - unless Pochettino wants to completely change the way we play when being forced by injury or whatever to include Dier?
Finney Is Back
Luka Modric
You quoted that international managers have limited resources to choose from and indicated that you felt that was the case even for France. I listed a few French footballers in an attempt to try to show that perhaps the manager of the French national team doesn't have particularly limited resources to choose from. In fact I would go further and say that the French national manager has a wider range of resources to choose from than just about any manager in the World.
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
As I understand it Lo Celso is very versatile and could cover NDombele, as well as Lamelas kind of area. Id also favour Winks who has shown good ability in progressing the ball and growing ability in defence.
I would genuinely favour others before Sissoko in covering NDombele.
Or, as you say, change formation - something Poch does a lot more than people think IMo.
Right, now I see - I get where youre coming from.
No, thats not what I was doing. My comment was a much more generalised one in response to the rather trite argument of "Well the international manager picks X player...." Its weak, and one of those "grinds my gears" kind of things, that was all.
Kandi1977
Garth Crooks
alekaras
The ITK of IDK
This doesn't make any sense, mate. We were talking specifics here. I indicated that Sissoko has been picked 55 times for France compared to Nzonzi's 14 selections as a more objective measure of the players.
To counter that you mentioned that you don't rate international managers. And then you say that they have limited resources. So is it the manager, or the resources?
But even if it's the resources, if you're comparing two players from the same country and one gets picked 3 times more than the other under multiple managers, doesn't that tell you something about the quality of that player relative to the other one?
So don't try to pull a fast one on us.
Hootnow
Jermaine Jenas
A few things about Sissoko in this absolute cluster fudge of a thread.
I didn't want Sissoko initially. If I'm completely honest, if I could go back, I still wouldn't buy him. I think 30 million, espcially at that time, could have been better spent.
Until this season, I was fed up every time I watched him and thought he was one of our worst purchases in recent times.
I still don't think he's a technical footballer or any such description.
However:
He clearly was one of our better performers last season. I struggle to understand how anyone can say otherwise. Even @nayimfromthehalfwayline, I don't understand fulur point tbh. You said you would put him 7th. We used 24 players regularly last season. Almost 30 if you include the likes of Janssen, Eyoma, I think GKN who contributed tiny amounts of minutes. Being in the top 25-33% of performers at your job, in any field... Would surely make you one of the better performers right?
He was clearly a Poch purchase. He is so far removed from the profile of player Levy usually likes and it was clearly Levy backing Poch at the time.
Along those lines, I was surprised to find that, contrary to my own recollection, Sissoko played a lot. He has played at least 2/3 of league games every season since he arrived. Now of course some were as subs. But clearly Poch does not share the opinions of some on here (which doesn't make him right of course).
The way I can see it prudent to sell him this summer is that we may think this is our best chance to reclaim our 30 million investment after the season he's just had.
But my GHod, some of you just won't budge eh?
I didn't want Sissoko initially. If I'm completely honest, if I could go back, I still wouldn't buy him. I think 30 million, espcially at that time, could have been better spent.
Until this season, I was fed up every time I watched him and thought he was one of our worst purchases in recent times.
I still don't think he's a technical footballer or any such description.
However:
He clearly was one of our better performers last season. I struggle to understand how anyone can say otherwise. Even @nayimfromthehalfwayline, I don't understand fulur point tbh. You said you would put him 7th. We used 24 players regularly last season. Almost 30 if you include the likes of Janssen, Eyoma, I think GKN who contributed tiny amounts of minutes. Being in the top 25-33% of performers at your job, in any field... Would surely make you one of the better performers right?
He was clearly a Poch purchase. He is so far removed from the profile of player Levy usually likes and it was clearly Levy backing Poch at the time.
Along those lines, I was surprised to find that, contrary to my own recollection, Sissoko played a lot. He has played at least 2/3 of league games every season since he arrived. Now of course some were as subs. But clearly Poch does not share the opinions of some on here (which doesn't make him right of course).
The way I can see it prudent to sell him this summer is that we may think this is our best chance to reclaim our 30 million investment after the season he's just had.
But my GHod, some of you just won't budge eh?
nayimfromthehalfwayline
Andy Thompson
This doesn't make any sense, mate. We were talking specifics here. I indicated that Sissoko has been picked 55 times for France compared to Nzonzi's 14 selections as a more objective measure of the players.
To counter that you mentioned that you don't rate international managers. And then you say that they have limited resources. So is it the manager, or the resources?
But even if it's the resources, if you're comparing two players from the same country and one gets picked 3 times more than the other under multiple managers, doesn't that tell you something about the quality of that player relative to the other one?
So don't try to pull a fast one on us.
Its over lapped with a wider point, so I should explain.
International football, is, imo, a completely different and inferior game to club football.
And as a subset of that, International managers are generally worse to - though thats besides the point.
When we are talking about club football, about what a player offers a specific team - International football is irrelevant, and so your stats and leaning on Deschamps is also irrelevant.
I mention the limited resources because that is one of the ways in which International football is a fundamentally different thing. When you have limited resources you have to make completely different decisions than a club manager. Among those resources TIME is a key one, not just restricted player selection.
We could discuss at length the many ways in which Intl football is irrelevant, but I hope you begin to see the point.
When Im talking about who I would prefer as 5th/6th choice CM in a Poch system at Spurs - no amount of Intl cobblers counts for anything.