Moussa Sissoko

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

So you're comparing Ndombele and Nzonzi and coming to the conclusion that they are about the same and then taking that one step further to compare Nzonzi to Sissoko using Ndombele as the Nzonzi equivalent. Sheesh!

No, Im not.

Im saying that Sissoko is nothing like the player you describe.

That NDombele is an absolute upgrade on him, such that he will literally replace him.

And that in the "relegated to utility/bench/5th choice" category, Id rather NZonzi (a superior player IMO) than Sissoko.

 

[alekaras]

No, Im not.

Im saying that Sissoko is nothing like the player you describe.

That NDombele is an absolute upgrade on him, such that he will literally replace him.

And that in the "relegated to utility/bench/5th choice" category, Id rather NZonzi (a superior player IMO) than Sissoko.

Here's the thing: I'm not describing Sissoko in any way. I'm just stating the fact that he was one of our best performers this past season, which is... well, it's a fact. So it baffles me that you would want to replace him with Nzonzi.

And considering the folly of bedding in a new player, when you have someone already performing the role at a high level (and who is younger and not agitating for a move), is Nzonzi that much of a better player than Sissoko to justify this? If he is, why has he been called up to the national team only 14 times compared to Sissoko's 55? Are the French national team managers that blind, too?

As for whether Ndombele will be replacing him, that remains to be seen. We have no idea how Poch intends to set up the team, so let's not jump to conclusions. The likelihood is that Winks, Sissoko, Ndombele, and Dier will be rotating in midfield, but what the preferred duo will be is far from certain, although I would hope that Ndombele lives up to the hype and is one part of that duo.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Thats not a fact, thats your opinion. These are very different things.

You need to be very specific in what "best performer" even means.

In terms of 'which players performed at their absolute best'? I would agree Sissoko is right up there.

In terms of 'Which players played the best football in our team'? Ive already stated many times - Sissoko is probably #7 on that list. No where near the top.

The logic of going for someone like N'Zonzi has been made clear, twice now.
A) I think he is a better footballer than Sissoko
B) I think Sissoko (and Wanyama) are both set to be way down the pecking order, and will only be on the bench/be utility players
C) I think the profit in selling both and replacing with N'Zonzi would be a good strategy, trimming the squad and raising cash to invest.

You might or might not agree with my conclusion, but there is nothing about it that should baffle you.

Further to that, you assert that Sissoko is already performing in the team at a high level. As Ive already stated, I do not believe this is true. I have posted at length in this very thread the ways in which he does not suit the team, is not good enough for it, effectively compromises it... Quite the opposite to your view.

I place very little value on the actions and opinions of international managers, its a silly point to raise.

As for anything that happens, it remains to be seen. We can only predict.

I predict Poch wants us playing football more like seasons past than last, and as a result Sissoko will disappear from the first team, perhaps only to be seen late in games when we are closing matches out and in the early rounds of the League/FA cups.

 

[alekaras]

Thats not a fact, thats your opinion. These are very different things.

You need to be very specific in what "best performer" even means.

In terms of 'which players performed at their absolute best'? I would agree Sissoko is right up there.

In terms of 'Which players played the best football in our team'? Ive already stated many times - Sissoko is probably #7 on that list. No where near the top.

The logic of going for someone like N'Zonzi has been made clear, twice now.
A) I think he is a better footballer than Sissoko
B) I think Sissoko (and Wanyama) are both set to be way down the pecking order, and will only be on the bench/be utility players
C) I think the profit in selling both and replacing with N'Zonzi would be a good strategy, trimming the squad and raising cash to invest.

You might or might not agree with my conclusion, but there is nothing about it that should baffle you.

Further to that, you assert that Sissoko is already performing in the team at a high level. As Ive already stated, I do not believe this is true. I have posted at length in this very thread the ways in which he does not suit the team, is not good enough for it, effectively compromises it... Quite the opposite to your view.

I place very little value on the actions and opinions of international managers, its a silly point to raise.

As for anything that happens, it remains to be seen. We can only predict.

I predict Poch wants us playing football more like seasons past than last, and as a result Sissoko will disappear from the first team, perhaps only to be seen late in games when we are closing matches out and in the early rounds of the League/FA cups.

So you have 3 "I thinks", your own assessment that he is #7 in the team and that in your opinion he does not suit the team, and I have stated what multiple pundits/fans/legends/players have said about Sissoko of this past season, yet I am the one with the opinion and you are the one with the facts?

And yeah, let's not pay attention to international managers' assessment of players. What do they know compared to the breadth and depth of football knowledge on this forum?

I'm trying to give you a graceful out here, mate. Take it!

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I do not need an easy out, I do not claim my opinion as fact.

My view is consistent and can be argued strongly, the dots join up.

Yours is the one that seems to jump randomly.

International football is a whole other conversation, but needless to say if you give it some thought you'll realise why it's not proof of anything at a club level

 

[nayenezgani]

No, Im not.

Im saying that Sissoko is nothing like the player you describe.

That NDombele is an absolute upgrade on him, such that he will literally replace him.

And that in the "relegated to utility/bench/5th choice" category, Id rather NZonzi (a superior player IMO) than Sissoko.

SMH. THEY'RE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLAYERS! How many times does this need to be gone over?

 

[alekaras]

I do not need an easy out, I do not claim my opinion as fact.

My view is consistent and can be argued strongly, the dots join up.

Yours is the one that seems to jump randomly.

International football is a whole other conversation, but needless to say if you give it some thought you'll realise why it's not proof of anything at a club level

I give up...

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

SMH. THEY'RE COMPLETELY DIFFERENT PLAYERS! How many times does this need to be gone over?

Wow, CAPS and text speak, well - thats me convinced...

They are players, assuming you mean Sissoko and NDombele, who perform the same role within the team.

Of course they are different, one is really really good and productive in the role, the other much less so.

Ive seen on this very board, literally this week (Ill see if I can find the post) Sissoko being described as having successfully replaced Dembele.

And Im sure youve seen all the talk of NDombele being the next Dembele incarnation.

This is because Sissoko has take over the role of being the player in our midfield to progress the ball up the field, and guess what NDombele's stregnth is?

These two will be competition, not complimentary, and it is clear there is only one winner (allowing for NDombele to settle and find his feet).

 

[nayenezgani]

Wow, CAPS and text speak, well - thats me convinced...

They are players, assuming you mean Sissoko and NDombele, who perform the same role within the team.

Of course they are different, one is really really good and productive in the role, the other much less so.

Ive seen on this very board, literally this week (Ill see if I can find the post) Sissoko being described as having successfully replaced Dembele.

And Im sure youve seen all the talk of NDombele being the next Dembele incarnation.

This is because Sissoko has take over the role of being the player in our midfield to progress the ball up the field, and guess what NDombele's stregnth is?

These two will be competition, not complimentary, and it is clear there is only one winner (allowing for NDombele to settle and find his feet).

You're wrong on almost every level, but I can't be fudged going over this when you're so clearly unwilling to give any leeway on your stance. Simply zero balance on this one.

Mostly I think you're a wonderful contributor, but on this issue your stubbornness is really weird.

The proof will be in the pudding, once Poch starts releasing his starting line ups for the season ahead.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You're wrong on almost every level, but I can't be fudged going over this when you're so clearly unwilling to give any leeway on your stance. Simply zero balance on this one.

Mostly I think you're a wonderful contributor, but on this issue your stubbornness is really weird.

The proof will be in the pudding, once Poch starts releasing his starting line ups for the season ahead.

The proof will be in the pudding. Though I would suggest early line ups will be far too soon for 'I told you So's' on either side, Poch will be settling players and tinkering.

By Christmas it should be more obvious what his intentions are.

Its not stubborness to suggest the two players play the same role (note 'role', not 'style') and stick to what I believe is right.

You've actually done nothing that Ive seen to explain how/why I am wrong in that belief.

I believe, at this point, NDombele will effectively replace Demebele, a position Sissoko is currently doing his best to fill.

I do not believe they are compatible as partners.

 

[uksb]

This is because Sissoko has take over the role of being the player in our midfield to progress the ball up the field

This is not Sissoko's role in the team. You can't give a player this role when they can't comfortably receive the ball under pressure, and pass in forwards consistently. You would be relying on his ability to run passed players, which is not reliable.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

This is not Sissoko's role in the team. You can't give a player this role when they can't comfortably receive the ball under pressure, and pass in forwards consistently. You would be relying on his ability to run passed players, which is not reliable.

I agree completely with your critique, I dont think he is any good at it - but I do believe thats the job he has been trying to do.

Personally I think Scott Parker DM Beast is his ideal role. Whether or not we need that is another question, but I honestly think this is the best way to get the best out of him. And its no surprise that I think the game against Chelsea where he played a decidedly more defensive role is IMO his best performance for us.

However, thats not what he's been doing, is it?

He's been the box to box man, the "breaking the lines" man, the one trying to drive upfield...

 

[scaramanga]

I agree completely with your critique, I dont think he is any good at it - but I do believe thats the job he has been trying to do.

Personally I think Scott Parker DM Beast is his ideal role. Whether or not we need that is another question, but I honestly think this is the best way to get the best out of him. And its no surprise that I think the game against Chelsea where he played a decidedly more defensive role is IMO his best performance for us.

However, thats not what he's been doing, is it?

He's been the box to box man, the "breaking the lines" man, the one trying to drive upfield...

His defensive stats don't compare favourably to either Dier or Wanyama at their peaks.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

His defensive stats don't compare favourably to either Dier or Wanyama at their peaks.

Im not talking about how good he is at it, rather that I think that particular role is the one where you get the absolute best out of him.

And given he has never really played it, there wouldnt be stats to compare, would there?

I was thinking earlier, he actually reminds me a lot of Parker.

Parker playing that DM role, sat in front of the defence, hunt down anything coming our way and break the attack, get the ball and give it simply to better players - I thought he was genuinely brilliant. And I think Sissoko could emulate this very effectively.

Parker deciding he really should be the temp setter, the fulcrum of our team, going box to box, demanding the ball and doing fudge all with it, charging into attacking areas to no effect - I couldnt stand to watch him play and I felt it worked to the general impediment of the team. And it a lot of ways this describes the Sissoko we have had to date.

 

[uksb]

I agree completely with your critique, I dont think he is any good at it - but I do believe thats the job he has been trying to do.

Personally I think Scott Parker DM Beast is his ideal role. Whether or not we need that is another question, but I honestly think this is the best way to get the best out of him. And its no surprise that I think the game against Chelsea where he played a decidedly more defensive role is IMO his best performance for us.

However, thats not what he's been doing, is it?

He's been the box to box man, the "breaking the lines" man, the one trying to drive upfield...

I would argue that his role is a more defensive one than box to box.

If Pochettino is asking him to perform a role he is not suited to, then that in itself would be strange (particularly as Winks is clearly better at said role). But stranger than that, he has had his best season in English football playing in a role he isn't any good at?

Personally I think most of Sissoko's upturn in form last season (whether you think he's any good or not, you can't deny he played close to as well as he is capable of), was down to dropping him deeper. Give him the task of winning the ball back, and passing it on to someone else - which he's actually good at.

Sure he broke the lines at times with his running, but you don't task a player with this sort of instruction. Especially one who can be, let's say, inconsistent with his technical ability.

For me Winks is all about ball progression. He can pick the ball up under pressure, turn and play the ball forwards. These are his strengths, and his role in the team. Not Sissoko

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I would argue that his role is a more defensive one than box to box.

If Pochettino is asking him to perform a role he is not suited to, then that in itself would be strange (particularly as Winks is clearly better at said role). But stranger than that, he has had his best season in English football playing in a role he isn't any good at?

Personally I think most of Sissoko's upturn in form last season (whether you think he's any good or not, you can't deny he played close to as well as he is capable of), was down to dropping him deeper. Give him the task of winning the ball back, and passing it on to someone else - which he's actually good at.

Sure he broke the lines at times with his running, but you don't task a player with this sort of instruction. Especially one who can be, let's say, inconsistent with his technical ability.

For me Winks is all about ball progression. He can pick the ball up under pressure, turn and play the ball forwards. These are his strengths, and his role in the team. Not Sissoko

Winks and Sissoko seemed to be his preferred pairing, and of the two I would suggest Winks was the notably deeper of the two with Sissoko playing more box to box.

Winks was sitting, holding, taking the ball off of the defense and playing a deeper position consistently.

Sissoko was either back supporting him or charging off who knows where. His forward runs were a lot more regular than "at times", and most of his best defensive contributions came from Kyle Walker-esqe recovery runs rather than defensive positioning - indicating he was upfield.

It is very strange this is how he ended up playing, as Ive said I would most certainly have locked him into a Parker like DM role - allowing Winks to play the good football further ahead. But, as much as that makes sense to me, I cant say thats what happened.

 

[uksb]

Winks and Sissoko seemed to be his preferred pairing, and of the two I would suggest Winks was the notably deeper of the two with Sissoko playing more box to box.

Winks was sitting, holding, taking the ball off of the defense and playing a deeper position consistently.

Sissoko was either back supporting him or charging off who knows where. His forward runs were a lot more regular than "at times", and most of his best defensive contributions came from Kyle Walker-esqe recovery runs rather than defensive positioning - indicating he was upfield.

It is very strange this is how he ended up playing, as Ive said I would most certainly have locked him into a Parker like DM role - allowing Winks to play the good football further ahead. But, as much as that makes sense to me, I cant say thats what happened.

Winks definitely played deeper. If Sissoko receives the ball from the centrebacks it is most likely going backwards or sideways, unless he spots an opening to run in to. This is why I disagree with his task being to progress the ball forward.

Being positioned slightly further forward does not dictate your role in the team.

 

[scaramanga]

Im not talking about how good he is at it, rather that I think that particular role is the one where you get the absolute best out of him.

And given he has never really played it, there wouldnt be stats to compare, would there?

I was thinking earlier, he actually reminds me a lot of Parker.

Parker playing that DM role, sat in front of the defence, hunt down anything coming our way and break the attack, get the ball and give it simply to better players - I thought he was genuinely brilliant. And I think Sissoko could emulate this very effectively.

Parker deciding he really should be the temp setter, the fulcrum of our team, going box to box, demanding the ball and doing fudge all with it, charging into attacking areas to no effect - I couldnt stand to watch him play and I felt it worked to the general impediment of the team. And it a lot of ways this describes the Sissoko we have had to date.

I think it was Bielsa who was the first to point out that by playing a double pivot, one can avoid the need for the wasted space of a Parker or Sissoko in that role. That by playing Dembele (Ndombele) alongside a Winks, Dier, etc you get to play two players who can pass, at least one who can dribble and two who are pretty good defensively. I think football moved past playing the likes of Parker some time ago.

Caveat: I agree that's where we'd see the best out of Sissoko, I just don't see much point in playing that way.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Winks definitely played deeper. If Sissoko receives the ball from the centrebacks it is most likely going backwards or sideways, unless he spots an opening to run in to. This is why I disagree with his task being to progress the ball forward.

Being positioned slightly further forward does not dictate your role in the team.

Again, Im certainly not arguing with your assessment of their various strengths and weaknesses, I just dont think you are correct to say Sissoko was a more defensive player.

IMO he was box to box, he was carrying the all through midfield, he was passing forwards (or trying to) and was certainly supporting attacks. And yes, he was getting back and defending, sitting deep when required. He was much more "all action" and his heatmaps will show he was all over the pitch compared to Winks much more "controlled" movement/holding of position.

I think it was Bielsa who was the first to point out that by playing a double pivot, one can avoid the need for the wasted space of a Parker or Sissoko in that role. That by playing Dembele (Ndombele) alongside a Winks, Dier, etc you get to play two players who can pass, at least one who can dribble and two who are pretty good defensively. I think football moved past playing the likes of Parker some time ago.

Caveat: I agree that's where we'd see the best out of Sissoko, I just don't see much point in playing that way.

Absolutely.

Im not advocating we actually build a team with Sissoko in it, I just dont think he is good enough and I agree - I much prefer a double pivot of two more rounded players.

Was just saying, at a time when we had little use but to utilise him, thats how I would have done it.

That being said, I do think this year as the more defensive player could end up being crucial in Winks development.

 

[ricky2tricky4city]

I think we should sell Sissoko.

Only so we can lock this thread