Moussa Sissoko

[Raziel]

Eriksen and Lamela for sure. Probably Son next, thought he did an amazing job for the team. After that, much of a muchness. Dier had strong periods, as did Davies, as did Sissoko, Trippier...

I dont think Sissoko was bad at all. I just dont think, if you want to judge him on merit and not preconception, he was a stand out player. Certainly not "great".

As I said, he was fine. Just like most of the rest of the team.

However, judge him as Sissoko, against what he has done in the past? And yes, quite possibly his best performance of all time. And even then it was against tinkle poor opposition.

You Sissoko fan boys cant have it all ways, either he is judged as a player in our side or he is judged based on his own past form and ability, which is it to be?

Time for people to accept, Sissoko is a squad player that is asked to do a job.

- most days he does it, runs his ass off, contributes occasionally (was interesting seeing him being deep defensively yesterday) and gives a key player a rest/rotation.
- In a squad that includes Lloris, Jan, Toby, Eriksen, Son, Dele, Lamela, Lucas & Kane he is never going to be in "our best players group"

Doesn't mean he is some kind of santanic donkey, nor does it mean he is going to be someone we expect a match winning performance from. And .. none of these conversations would ever happen is we paid 10M for him ...

My view is last season it was hard to understand who we could/should upgrade in first 11, this season I'm seeing gaps

Top level (highly unlikely we will get better) = Lloris, Jan, Toby, Dembele, Eriksen, Son, Dele, Kane
Mid Tier (still have promise to get to top tier) = Dier, Wanyama (last season was in top tier, form this season not), Sanchez, Lamela , Lucas (I think fit he will easily be in top tier)
Upgrade candidates = Sissoko, Trippier, Davies, Winks (for a while was in mid tier), Llorente, Aurier (I expect after preseason will be in mid tier), Rose (was top tier once)

My view doesn't translate into who we will/should sell, but it simply shows some players are just expected to do a job, others win matches, all teams have this.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

Ive never denied Sissoko is a squad player. He is at the club, and no where near as good as the rest of the squad, what else would he be?

Neither have I ever considered him a satanic donkey, and most certainly never a match winner.

Only ever, consistently, not good enough.

And yes, I have recognised in his time there have been games where he has done a job, or even done well enough.

The whole upgrade thing? Sissoko and Llorente are the weakest players we have by a distance, and therefore the easiest to upgrade upon.

The only other one Id be fairly happy to lose is Rose. Not that I want him to go, but I wouldnt be at all bothered if he did - and I think his moving on would allow us room to get someone exciting like Sessengnon in (hopefully while funding the change). And, much like Walker, I dont think we would explicitly miss him either.

The rest Im really quite happy with. Some have room to improve, others are more accomplished squad players, others maybe have a little time before they can be called as not good enough.

 

[harr1984]

Eriksen and Lamela for sure. Probably Son next, thought he did an amazing job for the team. After that, much of a muchness. Dier had strong periods, as did Davies, as did Sissoko, Trippier...

I dont think Sissoko was bad at all. I just dont think, if you want to judge him on merit and not preconception, he was a stand out player. Certainly not "great".

As I said, he was fine. Just like most of the rest of the team.

However, judge him as Sissoko, against what he has done in the past? And yes, quite possibly his best performance of all time. And even then it was against tinkle poor opposition.

You Sissoko fan boys cant have it all ways, either he is judged as a player in our side or he is judged based on his own past form and ability, which is it to be?

It’s you that is saying he’s being judged on past form. All people has said is that he had a good game which he did, nothing to do with previous. The difference is posters inventing things to try and make out Sissoko to be somewhat poorer than he is like the ‘spazzing it off his shin’ which I’m keeping an eye out for and still yet to see, or the classic ‘anyone notice how everyone avoids passing to Sissoko’ which is just embarrassing BS that doesn’t deserve anymore airtime. I’m not wasting anymore energy on the debate because it’s gotten boring, I came on to compliment Sissoko on a good game and it’s good to see plenty of others giving him some recognition....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

"Great" was the word used. Somewhat hyperbolic a the very least.

In a game where he was fine, but basically offered no contest/opposition.

What Im saying, is anyone judging him on the game only, would say as much as me. Anyone judging him on his reputation etc - would use words like "great".

And, of course, your blind spot. You are the only poster who consistently never see's his errors. Believe me, nobody is making them up. The falsehood is in your persistent accusations that people are doing so.

Avoiding passing to him? It WAS most definitely a thing. Particularly early in the season. It faded out the more he played. This has been discussed, but please - you go and build that straw man.

And lets be clear - no one came in here to slag him off. Only to point out - "great" (laughable) is somewhat OTT.

Sissoko did well, good for him, as always I hope it is the beginning of him becoming a world beater.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

The ‘players avoid passing to him’ thing was total nonsense and as @harr1984 says, embarrassing BS. No doubt players will always look to get Eriksen on the ball in attacking positions rather than Sissoko for example, but to try and justify an argument that Sissoko sucks so bad by saying that even the players think he is so bad they refuse to pass to him...it’s nonsense.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

I think ‘great game’ is just a throwaway phrase people use because they want to give credit where it is due, particularly to a player that has had to deal with a fair amount of overboard criticism this season. Was it one of the greatest footballing performances of all time? No. It was against a poor Swansea side and we looked a class above. Did Sissoko do everything he was asked to do and have an obviously positive contribution to our performance? Yes. And he was one of our stand out players on the day.

He also did things like ‘trap the ball’ and ‘pass 5 yards’ which such regularity even though his detractors have literally said he cannot do these things. And players ‘passed him the ball’ too!

By any objective measure he was one of our better players on the day, playing well in a position that gets the best out of him. He is more than justifying his place as a squad player, and he doesn’t look leagues below the rest of our squad at all. He looks like he belongs to me.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

The ‘players avoid passing to him’ thing was total nonsense and as @harr1984 says, embarrassing BS. No doubt players will always look to get Eriksen on the ball in attacking positions rather than Sissoko for example, but to try and justify an argument that Sissoko sucks so bad by saying that even the players think he is so bad they refuse to pass to him...it’s nonsense.

No, it wasnt. At all. It was completely obvious at the time. Shocking, in fact. And it happened more than once, it was regularly for a run of games.

As I said, it was early in the season and it has died off since - hence no-one, except you, has been mentioning it. It is no longer relevant.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I think ‘great game’ is just a throwaway phrase people use because they want to give credit where it is due, particularly to a player that has had to deal with a fair amount of overboard criticism this season. Was it one of the greatest footballing performances of all time? No. It was against a poor Swansea side and we looked a class above. Did Sissoko do everything he was asked to do and have an obviously positive contribution to our performance? Yes. And he was one of our stand out players on the day.

He also did things like ‘trap the ball’ and ‘pass 5 yards’ which such regularity even though his detractors have literally said he cannot do these things. And players ‘passed him the ball’ too!

By any objective measure he was one of our better players on the day, playing well in a position that gets the best out of him. He is more than justifying his place as a squad player, and he doesn’t look leagues below the rest of our squad at all. He looks like he belongs to me.

Ha! More nonsense to try and hold up against people who dont rate him.

He often cannot trap a ball, as evidenced many times. Im not sure anyone has said he can literally never trap a ball, but you go for it, straw man number 625 of this thread...

I recall a while back @scaramanga made a point of pointing it out in the match thread. Instead of the point being seen, IE - here is an analysis of his game in real time - instead of people maybe taking notice to see what it was he was talking about, he was just slammed for 'hating' on the player.

His technique is lacking, massively, a lot of the time. In both passing and control. Thats a fact.

Do you know why nobody has been slagging him since yesterday? Because he was just fine. Those that dont rate him dont actually have an agenda against him, if he is good he is good, if he isnt then guess what - he isnt. They recongise each and respond accordingly.

You and your campaign though? Objectivity left a long time back, about the time your agenda took over.

And, lastly, he most certainly does not belong in this squad. Not even close.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

No, it wasnt. At all. It was completely obvious at the time. Shocking, in fact. And it happened more than once, it was regularly for a run of games.

As I said, it was early in the season and it has died off since - hence no-one, except you, has been mentioning it. It is no longer relevant.

I wasn’t even the one that brought it up! But it is and was nonsense.

 

[SpurMeUp]

@nayimfromthehalfwayline for someone who finds Sissoko poor to average you don't half bang on about him!

Sissoko showed he can be part of the team. Which in the face of all the ridicule and smears against him from his own fans meant some posted on here flagging up his inclusion and success, but clearly some still have an agenda to undermine. What's so difficult about saying "he proved me wrong" ?

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

I wasn’t even the one that brought it up! But it is and was nonsense.

No it wasnt and isnt nonsense at all. Your complete lack of ability to recognise as much betrays your utter bias in all things Sissoko.

Early in the season the team avoided passing to him, it was notable - as I say - shocking, in fact. It wasnt imaginary, it wasnt misunderstanding, and it wasnt made up. It happened.

@nayimfromthehalfwayline for someone who finds Sissoko poor to average you don't half bang on about him!

Sissoko showed he can be part of the team. Which in the face of all the ridicule and smears against him from his own fans meant some posted on here flagging up his inclusion and success, but clearly some still have an agenda to undermine. What's so difficult about saying "he proved me wrong" ?

He has proved nothing wrong. He has gone from being an abject liability to a sort of functional player in a 2rd reserve kind of way.

The improvement is significant, without question. For me, its still not enough to justify him being at the club though. Others it seems are rather easily impressed.

And I have no agenda, other than sticking to the truth of these matters in the face of outright fabrication on the part of others.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

Ha! More nonsense to try and hold up against people who dont rate him.

He often cannot trap a ball, as evidenced many times. Im not sure anyone has said he can literally never trap a ball, but you go for it, straw man number 625 of this thread...

I recall a while back @scaramanga made a point of pointing it out in the match thread. Instead of the point being seen, IE - here is an analysis of his game in real time - instead of people maybe taking notice to see what it was he was talking about, he was just slammed for 'hating' on the player.

His technique is lacking, massively, a lot of the time. In both passing and control. Thats a fact.

Do you know why nobody has been slagging him since yesterday? Because he was just fine. Those that dont rate him dont actually have an agenda against him, if he is good he is good, if he isnt then guess what - he isnt. They recongise each and respond accordingly.

You and your campaign though? Objectivity left a long time back, about the time your agenda took over.

And, lastly, he most certainly does not belong in this squad. Not even close.

Ahh man, as I’ve always said, I just wanted him to be rated fairly and objectively. With the greatest respect to @scaramanga , perhaps if he wanted his objective analysis to be given the credence it deserves he probably shouldn’t spend 99% of the time he talks about Sissoko quite literally saying that the ball always ‘spazzes off his shin’ and other such things.

And maybe it isn’t you, because you are fair, but I’ll always believe Sissoko was not given a fair shake this season by a lot of fans, who are conditioned to think ‘he’s brick mate’ because he cost 30m, because he had a terrible first few games, and because a lot of people didn’t want him in the first place. As @Raziel says, if he cost 10m, he wouldn’t get as much abuse as he got. So I do believe expectations played a part, even though objectively speaking it should have no bearing on how he is rated in his performances now.

He was made a joke figure, and even this season when he was playing perfectly well, he would still, generally speaking, get way more abuse than he deserved, and he would get people looking at every minute action he did in order to pick out something bad, to then justify the over the top criticism. Even when he was playing well. Again, maybe this wasn’t you, because you are fair, but it is absolutely undeniable that this happened. You look at someone like Serge, who can make a lot of mistakes and yes, people criticise him for it. But he’s a character, his social media game is quite good and we needed a right back and most people thought he was a good signing before he came. So he gets way more slack, in terms of how his performances are rated, and how people are willing to get behind him. Sissoko never had that luxury.

It’s got polarised because the criticism of Sissoko, generally speaking, was so over the top that a lot of people (in ever increasing amounts) are looking at his performances and going ‘...hang on a minute’. Because he is nowhere near as bad as is being made out, and while you may be totally objective, a lot of people weren’t. And I think wanting to counter balance that is a fine thing to do, because he’s our player and he deserves it.

He had a terrible first few games for us where he looked like he couldn’t make the right decisions, struggled to do the simple things, and generally was just bad. But that perception stuck. Another player would have got some slack. It’s his first season, he missed pre-season, it’s a new position for him in a possession based team...maybe he needed time to adapt? But he cost a lot of money and a lot of people never wanted him, so a cult of negativity surrounded him and he became a joke figure. I remember us beating Everton away 3-0 this season, and the match thread had a lot of people piling into Sissoko when he was absolutely fine. It was weird, like people thought that by virtue of him being him, he would be bad and deserve over the top criticism.

And it always comes down to that. Maybe not you, but there was definitely a general vibe of people being way too harsh on his performances and his capabilities, and wanting to counter balance that is no bad thing.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

You see this is the problem as I see it - you are arguing against an idea.

You have a preconception about the "other side" and you are arguing that, not even the posts being made. Ive said to you before, and nothing has changed my mind since - Im convinced youve lost all objectivity in this and will one day look back and wonder what the hell you were doing.

Its like we discussed before, you and I are of a single mind when talking about Jenas - for example. I dont doubt your ability to see a players worth - which is why its utterly bizarre to me youve gone this mad on a player so obviously flawed, and so obviously poor for the vast majority of his time here.

Youve really bent and twisted a view on the player that just doesnt hold true under scrutiny.

Now, I do agree with you - he became a source of much ridicule.

Not, IMO, because he cost £30m, or because he had a few bad games. But because he was utterly terrible for a full season.

There might be something in saying he improved, but not as you describe. He didnt go from "bad" to "ok/decent/good", he went from "holy fudge thats awful" to "plain and simple bad".

He wasnt "made a joke figure", he "made himself a joke figure". And, my personal belief, he was so bad last season we simply couldnt find someone to buy him over the summer. Thats why he is still here. Its hard to reconcile that with your view of "started bad but then was all fine and dandy!".

If people get tinkled off at that, I cant really blame them. As much as Id like everyone to love everyone and all be happy, I just cant hold it against someone taking issue with such a flop.

I applaud your intention to support and stand up for a player. I just think youve gone way OTT on the other end of the spectrum to those youre arguing against ('those' being, at this point, something of an abstract idea rather than actual posters).

Fundamentally, where I disagree, is not even with the joke figure stuff - I dont really care about that. We have all seen many times in football where a player has gone from zero to hero. Its why I dont mind, because I am confident were he to really hit form people would turn back to the positive on him.

Where really disagree is on the footballing front. He plays a game where he doesnt fudge up, and youll be saying how he fits so well in the team and played really well etc... Often with an I-told-you-so thrown in. To my eye, its just not true. Performances arent binary, its not "If he wasnt terrible he must have been great!" and I know you know that - which is the frustration. He can be not terrible, while still not being any good. You allow no room for that in your quest to justify him.

And I do believe most of the criticism levelled at him is just, and with good reason.

The same people making that (fair) criticism have also, many times, pointed to good acts and qualities of him as well.

You might not like the language used, and again - probably fair point - but scratch away at the actual point being made and youll see it is valid.

As you point out Aurier - I believe the fundamental difference is in the basic judgement of a player. Combined with a bit of time.

People look at Aurier and see massive potential, and also see he hasnt had much time with the club. Experience tells us players can take time to adapt under Poch, so when you look at it over all its not hard to see why he gets some slack. And thats all while recognising he has had some absolute stinkers or bad moments.

Sissoko? I think people just see that fundamentally he isnt very good. And its frustrating when you look at the rest of the squad. He has been here near two seasons and only just graduated from being a total liability to being able to do a passable job.

Can you see why people have different views? Its not preconception or prejudice. Its simpler. Its simply not seeing the player you describe.

And, honestly, I think its because that player doesnt exist. Everyone else can see him for what he is, even with the best will in the world.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

When you say Sissoko was bad for a ‘full season’, I’ve asked this once before, but how can he be bad for a full season when he barely played in the second half of it? He had a few really bad early games (when he missed pre season, new club, new system etc) then only started occasionally from December onwards. When he did get on he did ok in his minutes, and when he started he certainly wasn’t as bad as he was in those first few games. And even then, I remember Monaco and Leverkusen being really bad ones for him, but he also started in the great team performance and win over Emirates Marketing Project.

So that is why I made the distinction between those first few games, where he was bad, and the rest of his time, which has been a steady upward curve and no where near as bad as had been made out. It’s in those first games where the ball spazzing off his shin is almost a valid criticism, never since. And again, a lot of other players would get some understanding because they miss a pre season, have joined a new club and are playing a new system. But Sissoko cost a lot of money, and a lot of people never wanted him, so minds got made up quickly. And they didn’t change even when he started doing a lot better.

 

[parklane1]

He had a " very good game" for those who missed that i said " very good game" not " a great game".

I find it a shame and sad that even after he has " a very good game" there are some on here who have repeatedly called him rubbish, pathetic, a joke player etc,etc are still having a dig at him, just to justify their over the top criticism of him since he came here.

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

For the first season he was here, he was terrible. What else do you suppose it means?

I just think he was awful. And as I say - had we an offer to take him without a significant loss I think we would have bitten the arm off of whoever wanted him. We have him now because, IMHO, he was so bad last season there was simply no interest in the summer.

And he didnt start this season any better. It took him a long time, and a lot of games, to shake off the utter dreadfulness of that form. He has improved since, but not enough that I value him in the squad. More like, enough that I dont grimace when he is on the team sheet now - though Id still much rather he wasnt.

The problem with Sissoko is not the price, nor the lack of people wanting him, or any of that. Its that, fundamentally, he just isnt very good - particularly in a team like ours.

You are wrong in saying he hasnt spassed it off his shin since the beginning of last season. Absolutely, categorically, wrong.

Basic technique is principle among his faults, and why I say that is shown regularly. Thats not saying EVERY touch is bad, but it certainly bad enough with enough frequency that it is a very real feature of his game.

And this is where I feel youve gone off piste. The problem isnt perceptions, prejudices, a bad start informing a now incorrect opinion, its none of that. Its simply that he isnt good enough and people can see, and when he plays and repeatedly shows why, its frustrating.

Ive said before, its really not his fault (aside from choosing us over Everton!) - its the fault of those who chose to buy him. It was a bad buy, from the start, and if anyone had really watched him play I think it was obvious.

What are Sissoko's strengths?

-Fitness and Stamina - are excellent. And obviously welcome in any team, including ours.
-He does a good job in sitting deep in midfield, closing space and breaking up play. When he plays this role (strictly) is when he looks at his best for us.
-He breaks through midfield very well, when there is space.
-And, when there is space (particularly on the counter) he is able to play a decent pass more often than not. The assist the other day is the sort of thing Im thinking.

What are his weaknesses?

- He does not do well in tight spaces/under pressure.
- His touch is often very poor, meaning he is often 2 or 3 touches before being in control, which means he is a liability if closely marked/closed down. Also kills fluidity/momentum.
- His passing in and around midfield (and in general play) is often poor. There are of course the 'put it straight out of play' kind of passes, but more often the fault is in his successful ones. The stats will be great - he completed X passes. The reality is he passed the ball behind someone, rather than in front. They had to check back, control it, and in doing so lost all forward momentum, with our play then going back to square 1. There was a game a few weeks back, Newport I think, where for some reason he was literally punting the ball at players as well, meaning they had to do twice as much just to control the ball and make use of it.
- He has no vision. Which helps explain his poor passing as well, never spots the run, fires the ball where the player is/was.
- Cant shoot, thats for sure.
- Not sure Ive ever seen a decent cross from him.
- His positioning is iffy a lot of the time. Ill caveat that with saying he is used in a number of roles, and clearly has big problems with some when it comes to where to be and when/what to do. Perhaps the weakness is more a lack of understanding leading to a lack of flexibility, rather than positioning specifically? Either way there is something in that realm that shows him up.

When you round it out, literally every one of his weaknesses are badly exposed in our team.

I genuinely think were he to play under someone like Moyes or Allardyce, he would look a much more competent player. He would do his work as the team sits back, and he would be an asset when breaking from deep having turned over possession.

In our team? We have players that perform his strengths just as well. Who also do a whole lot more besides. Every time I see him play I think he is completely out of his depth, and that is the core of my issue with him at Spurs. And, I believe, most people who dont like him.

Its certainly nothing personal. For me, it serves mostly as evidence of how good we are these days. 10 years ago I suspect he would have been welcome, now? Not even close to good enough.

 

[BrainOfLevy]

...i’ll ask again, how can he be ‘terrible’ for the entire first season, when he barely played for the second half of it?

 

[Finney Is Back]

No, it wasnt. At all. It was completely obvious at the time. Shocking, in fact. And it happened more than once, it was regularly for a run of games.

As I said, it was early in the season and it has died off since - hence no-one, except you, has been mentioning it. It is no longer relevant.

Only in your mind was it a thing. At least you’ve moved forward a little in deciding that it no longer happens though.

 

[harr1984]

Just find it sad that Nayim comes on here to criticise a few Spurs fans saying he had a 'great' game instead of what he describes as 'fine'.

Rather than just compliment Sissoko on what was a good performance by anyone's standards you choose to criticise posters for their choice of wording for praise - what sort of fan does that?! It speaks volumes about you and how you're more concerned about saving face with your own agenda....

 

[nayimfromthehalfwayline]

...i’ll ask again, how can he be ‘terrible’ for the entire first season, when he barely played for the second half of it?

I dont see the problem here. The first season he was here, I thought he was terrible. Would it be more palateable if I said "the first 18 and a half games he was here he was terrible, those games being the ones he played in the 16/17 season"?

Im at a loss as to what it is you are hung up on.

Only in your mind was it a thing. At least you’ve moved forward a little in deciding that it no longer happens though.

If I had the patience Id rewatch the first 10 games and show you the instances it happened. It was most definitely "a thing". It was clear as day.

I would wager Poch laid into them on it, because it did stop - but that doesnt mean it didnt happen.

Just find it sad that Nayim comes on here to criticise a few Spurs fans saying he had a 'great' game instead of what he describes as 'fine'.

Rather than just compliment Sissoko on what was a good performance by anyone's standards you choose to criticise posters for their choice of wording for praise - what sort of fan does that?! It speaks volumes about you and how you're more concerned about saving face with your own agenda....

I have no agenda, and am not trying to save face. I have an opinion of the player I can articulate and stand by. And, as consistently stated, Ill be happy if he turns it around and becomes a real player for us.

In fact, if you look at what Ive posted here - I have havent even been slagging the player off. I said he played well FFS.

I take exception to the double standards though.

The same people over egging his performance as "great", talking about him as if he has really arrived as a player and generally being rather OTT about a performance that was - fine? good? (How can you tell when Swansea were so poor?) These are the same people railing against anyone who has anything negative to say about Sissoko, and in particular in any perceived exaggeration in that criticism.