Mousa Dembele

[DHSF]

If you check back a few pages, I actually said that I thought last night was Dembele's best ever game for us. I don't think he hindered our game at all.

I have two central criticisms of Dembele:
1) He's all style but no substance - he looks good but never actually produces anything. He's not effective. The complete opposite of Mason, who doesn't ever look good, but is actually the driving force of everything. People get swayed by the veneer and don't look at the outcome. The same as 85% of people didn't truly appreciate the importance of Carrick or Modric to the team until they'd left - they did the smart things, but not the showy things. I think so many people's perception of Dembele is still highly influenced by that Man U youtube video. IMO the issue is simple lack of intelligence/vision - it's like having a sports car with an enormous engine, but no steering wheel
2) His ponderous/non-existent transitioning made us 'turgid'. He was the root of all that. He needs to learn to move the ball quickly and vertically.

Until he addresses those, I'll continue to see him as a liability, rather than an asset. I can be proved wrong - notice how I've completely about-turned on Rose this season. But I suspect like Defoe and Parker, he'll just be another player I'll remain completely intolerant of.

A criticism is fine, everyone can handle criticism or so they should BUT the underlying reasoning behind his 'reluctance' to pass or shoot is simply, he wants to play the killer pass continuously or the right pass. He doesnt pass it for the sake of it and whether you or I think thats a good or bad thing is neither here nor there - you simply cannot have 10 outfield players who just want to hurry and pass the ball like a piece of hot coal. You need composure at times and he brings that, you need someone who will retain possession thus keeping the pressure in the attacking third. By him retaining possession he is also bringing in more players because they will have caught up with play which is another massive advantage.

I didnt rate him at all when he first joined us or rather before he joined us, then again I didnt really see much of him, but the guy oozes class and talent and let him play his own game. Atleast he doesnt hold onto the ball and then loses it which is far more of a 'crime'.

 

[braineclipse]

A criticism is fine, everyone can handle criticism or so they should BUT the underlying reasoning behind his 'reluctance' to pass or shoot is simply, he wants to play the killer pass continuously or the right pass. He doesnt pass it for the sake of it and whether you or I think thats a good or bad thing is neither here nor there - you simply cannot have 10 outfield players who just want to hurry and pass the ball like a piece of hot coal. You need composure at times and he brings that, you need someone who will retain possession thus keeping the pressure in the attacking third. By him retaining possession he is also bringing in more players because they will have caught up with play which is another massive advantage.

I didnt rate him at all when he first joined us or rather before he joined us, then again I didnt really see much of him, but the guy oozes class and talent and let him play his own game. Atleast he doesnt hold onto the ball and then loses it which is far more of a 'crime'.

Disagree. He's not the player that always plays the killer pass or right pass all the time. The criticism is that he takes too many touches and then it leads to nothing, not that he takes too many touches and then tries a killer pass. If there is no good very creative option on the best move will usually be to quickly move the ball on to try to create space.

Composure doesn't necessarily mean holding on to the ball. I don't think any of our current starting line up in the front 6 "hurry and pass the ball like a piece of hot coal".

To me at least it seems very clear that Poch is trying to up our passing tempo. He's doing that in part by playing very technical, good passers who release the ball quickly most of the time. Not because they lack composure, but rather because they have the awareness, composure, creativity and skill needed to do that in a useful way. I think Dembele has improved a bit on this, and the number of times where he uses multiple touches seems to me to be decreasing. But he still has some way to go.

 

[elltrev]

Disagree. He's not the player that always plays the killer pass or right pass all the time. The criticism is that he takes too many touches and then it leads to nothing, not that he takes too many touches and then tries a killer pass. If there is no good very creative option on the best move will usually be to quickly move the ball on to try to create space.

Composure doesn't necessarily mean holding on to the ball. I don't think any of our current starting line up in the front 6 "hurry and pass the ball like a piece of hot coal".

To me at least it seems very clear that Poch is trying to up our passing tempo. He's doing that in part by playing very technical, good passers who release the ball quickly most of the time. Not because they lack composure, but rather because they have the awareness, composure, creativity and skill needed to do that in a useful way. I think Dembele has improved a bit on this, and the number of times where he uses multiple touches seems to me to be decreasing. But he still has some way to go.

Think the truth is somewhere in between - there are definitely times when Bentaleb and Mason give the ball away with a quick pass, where having Dembele's strength and skill to keep the ball under pressure instead would have been preferable.

 

[braineclipse]

Think the truth is somewhere in between - there are definitely times when Bentaleb and Mason give the ball away with a quick pass, where having Dembele's strength and skill to keep the ball under pressure instead would have been preferable.

Not sure that's even close to a fair comparison. If you're comparing Bentaleb or Mason giving the ball away with a quick pass having Steffen Freund just boot the ball into the stands looks better by comparison as at least then you don't get a counter attack against you. Dembele also loses the ball on occasion, sometimes because he holds on to it for too long even.

 

[Mumorn]

Could anyone provide a comparison of this season and the two previous of Dembele and his chances created, forward passes etc

It seems to be a significant improvement this year, but won't mind seeing if that is actually the case.

 

[Finney Is Back]

If you check back a few pages, I actually said that I thought last night was Dembele's best ever game for us. I don't think he hindered our game at all.

I have two central criticisms of Dembele:
1) He's all style but no substance - he looks good but never actually produces anything. He's not effective. The complete opposite of Mason, who doesn't ever look good, but is actually the driving force of everything. People get swayed by the veneer and don't look at the outcome. The same as 85% of people didn't truly appreciate the importance of Carrick or Modric to the team until they'd left - they did the smart things, but not the showy things. I think so many people's perception of Dembele is still highly influenced by that Man U youtube video. IMO the issue is simple lack of intelligence/vision - it's like having a sports car with an enormous engine, but no steering wheel
2) His ponderous/non-existent transitioning made us 'turgid'. He was the root of all that. He needs to learn to move the ball quickly and vertically.

Until he addresses those, I'll continue to see him as a liability, rather than an asset. I can be proved wrong - notice how I've completely about-turned on Rose this season. But I suspect like Defoe and Parker, he'll just be another player I'll remain completely intolerant of.

Other than his goal against Liverpool this week, or his complete bossing of the Arsenal midfield last weekend or his 2 assists against West Brom..... But apart from Roads, Education, Sanitation, Law & Order, Literacy and Democracy..... What did the Romans ever do for us?

I find your comments quite interesting because I loved Carrick from the first time i saw him play for Spurs when Jol brought him into the team after replacing Santini. It was clear straight away that Carrick was positionally brilliant as well as being incredibly calm and composed on the ball. I also completely got what Modric was all about and, again, liked him as a player from very early on. Mason is another that I have spoken about my admiration for on here. Therefore I don't think that I a person who gets "swayed by the veneer". The fact that I have never been impressed by Soldado (whereas I think several on here are still "swayed by the veneer" of his price tag) and have also never been impressed with Capoue (unlike some people (including you) who were "swayed by the veneer" of his 'pass completion stats')

I was unconvinced that Dembele would work in a Pochettino team until his recent position change to the ACM role. However I now see a player who is receiving the ball centrally in decent positions and has been able to retain the ball through his skill and physicallity. He scored against Liverpool, assisted two against West Brom and gave an excellent performance against Arsenal and yet still that's not good enough for some people. Yes he has some faults, he doesn't shoot enough (especially with his right foot), he often fails to look to his right for options and sometimes he holds on to the ball for too long. But over the past few matches his positives have certainly outweighed his negatives.

Also can you explain what the Man U youtube is? I don't think I have ever seen it?.... Was it a highlight video of his performance against them when we won up there under AVB?

 

[billyiddo]

It was a video of his performance for Fulham away to United, probably one of his career best performances.

I think the critique that he holds on to the ball too much and slows down play is fair - i've generally been of that opinion for some time now. However it looks to me as though Pochettino is working on moulding him in to a player that suits his style of play, he isn't quite there yet but his recent run in the team is encouraging and you can clearly see that his game is changing (for the benefit of the team)

 

[elltrev]

Not sure that's even close to a fair comparison. If you're comparing Bentaleb or Mason giving the ball away with a quick pass having Steffen Freund just boot the ball into the stands looks better by comparison as at least then you don't get a counter attack against you. Dembele also loses the ball on occasion, sometimes because he holds on to it for too long even.

Agree that Dembele sometimes loses possession by holding onto it for too long, but don't get your first point. Think it's a moot point anyway due to misunderstanding - I guess I'm just saying that composure can equally manifest itself as quick accurate passing (Mason and Bentaleb) or holding onto the ball (Dembele) - and that both parties do those particular things imperfectly in different ways.

 

[Gazza Dazzla]

Just wondering how many more good performances Dembele has to put in in this role before he starts to get the appreciation he deserves.

There was a merry band of us asking for him to play in this role more often ever since Saudi Sportswashing Machine away last year, only to be shot down. I'm disgustingly smug about his recent performances there, he's turning out to be exactly what I thought he could be. I know that's smug and potentially a bit premature but so what!!!

 

[thfcsteff]

It was a video of his performance for Fulham away to United, probably one of his career best performances.

I think the critique that he holds on to the ball too much and slows down play is fair - i've generally been of that opinion for some time now. However it looks to me as though Pochettino is working on moulding him in to a player that suits his style of play, he isn't quite there yet but his recent run in the team is encouraging and you can clearly see that his game is changing (for the benefit of the team)

A fine post, and further, to the player's immense credit, he is buying into the philosophy and evidently working very very hard on his end to implement it.

 

[braineclipse]

Agree that Dembele sometimes loses possession by holding onto it for too long, but don't get your first point. Think it's a moot point anyway due to misunderstanding - I guess I'm just saying that composure can equally manifest itself as quick accurate passing (Mason and Bentaleb) or holding onto the ball (Dembele) - and that both parties do those particular things imperfectly in different ways.

Sure, there are many ways to be composed. But it's not like Mason and Bentaleb are always passing it away quickly with a lack of composure. We've seen both go on very useful runs with the ball and Bentaleb talked about developing his ability to control the tempo of a game in an interview, something he seems quite capable of.

I think overall those two show more composure and more importantly make better decisions on when to release the ball quickly and when to hold on to it. That's not only related to composure, and is something Dembele imo has to get better at.

It was a video of his performance for Fulham away to United, probably one of his career best performances.

I think the critique that he holds on to the ball too much and slows down play is fair - i've generally been of that opinion for some time now. However it looks to me as though Pochettino is working on moulding him in to a player that suits his style of play, he isn't quite there yet but his recent run in the team is encouraging and you can clearly see that his game is changing (for the benefit of the team)

I definitely agree that he is improving and that he isn't quite there yet.

Difficult skill to learn at this stage of his career for Dembele I imagine. If Pochettino can make that happen it would be to his immense credit.

 

[Mumorn]

 

[metalgear]

haha that gif epitomizes what a PITA dembele could be. that's like 4 opponents that he is effectively distracting and drawing out of position AND making a mockery of.

 

[Raziel]

haha that gif epitomizes what a PITA dembele could be. that's like 4 opponents that he is effectively distracting and drawing out of position AND making a mockery of.

Yep, he's one of the most difficult players to dispossess in football, great shield.

We all see the if he could be "smarter" in the final third he would be an extremely good offensive option. Question is, what does Poch want out of him, against Pool I think we saw the danger of our high energy, high tempo game, it can get too hectic, too open sometimes, Dembele can provide a little more control, higher up the pitch, may cost us offensively, but add a little more physicality/protection.

 

[braineclipse]

Yep, he's one of the most difficult players to dispossess in football, great shield.

We all see the if he could be "smarter" in the final third he would be an extremely good offensive option. Question is, what does Poch want out of him, against Pool I think we saw the danger of our high energy, high tempo game, it can get too hectic, too open sometimes, Dembele can provide a little more control, higher up the pitch, may cost us offensively, but add a little more physicality/protection.

I don't get it? Dembele was a part of that team against Liverpool... How is he the answer to that problem when the problem was present with him in the team?

Might just be me missing something here.

 

[diego_maradona]

I don't get it? Dembele was a part of that team against Liverpool... How is he the answer to that problem when the problem was present with him in the team?

Might just be me missing something here.

I think we were just careless at times against Liverpool. Partly that comes down to a lack of concentration by individuals at times, which is also about having a lack of experience. We are so enthusiastic as a team, that it would benefit them for a King or Naybet character to say lads, just calm it a little and make sure of your passes. Dembele was one of the few on that pitch v Liverpool who wasn't so careless in possession. But that's his strength, keeping a hold of the ball. It's about risk sometimes, Dembele may be less risky overall because of his attributes, but the rewards may be greater with a Chadli or Lamela who might gamble but leave us more vulnerable.

We'll get there. Anfield is a difficult place to go.

 

[braineclipse]

I think we were just careless at times against Liverpool. Partly that comes down to a lack of concentration by individuals at times, which is also about having a lack of experience. We are so enthusiastic as a team, that it would benefit them for a King or Naybet character to say lads, just calm it a little and make sure of your passes. Dembele was one of the few on that pitch v Liverpool who wasn't so careless in possession. But that's his strength, keeping a hold of the ball. It's about risk sometimes, Dembele may be less risky overall because of his attributes, but the rewards may be greater with a Chadli or Lamela who might gamble but leave us more vulnerable.

We'll get there. Anfield is a difficult place to go.

Agreed. Some experience wouldn't go amiss at all. Too many players made too many individual mistakes against Liverpool.

I'm not sure that I agree with Dembele holding on to the ball to calm a situation like that. It's often said how some players can "put their foot on the ball" to change the tempo as a positive. But putting your foot on the ball and holding on to it can also allow the opposition to get (back) into position and put your team under more pressure on the ball where a quick pass into space perhaps could have given the receiving player more time on the ball.

Certainly not saying there's no value to what Dembele is unarguably very good at. But it has to be at the right time and place.

Somewhat surprising that Stambouli wasn't on the bench for that game. I wonder if he could have made a difference if he had been as he's seemed the most natural replacement for Bentaleb/Mason for those deeper roles where we were struggling.

 

[Spur of the moment]

....

Somewhat surprising that Stambouli wasn't on the bench for that game. I wonder if he could have made a difference if he had been as he's seemed the most natural replacement for Bentaleb/Mason for those deeper roles where we were struggling.

Alluded to this in my ratings post:

'Understandable that (Poch) stuck by the team that started against Arsenal, but it was clear very early on that several, especially midfield, players were looking very ragged after that intense battle. So WHY WHY WHY was Stambouli not on the bench (is he injured?), he would have been the perfect replacement for the wearying Mason.'

Given Stambouli's storming performances in recent games and assuming Poch did indeed have, as reported, a full squad to choose from, it set me wondering whether maybe something else might have gone on behind the scenes. Doubtless Benjamin would have been dismayed to lose out against Arsenal to the returning Bentaleb, but to find he was not even on the bench at Anfield, well, let's just say it raised at least one set of eyebrows.

True Paulinho has done reasonably well recently and it may be that Poch was simply maximising his rotation options but there's no way in my book the Brazilian should have been preferred ahead of Stambouli, even allowing for the former's marginally greater threat up front.

However if we have learnt anything since the Argentinian's arrival it's not only that he has a rare gift for shrewd, dispassionate judgement, he also seems to hold no grudges. So even supposing Stambouli did step out of line at some point I believe we can be totally confident it'll be sorted out swiftly and without fuss.

 

[africanspurs]

Quite frankly i think Dembele is THE man again.

I personally think we have given him his position or at least his section of the pitch where he belongs....further foward / in the final third

Cant believe some of the criticism being levelled at this guy. Crazy

 

[nayenezgani]

Quite frankly i think Dembele is THE man again.

I personally think we have given him his position or at least his section of the pitch where he belongs....further foward / in the final third

Cant believe some of the criticism being levelled at this guy. Crazy

100% agree, his resurgence has been remarkable, first name on the team sheet for me.

Some really excellent posters have let themselves down by failing to give the Moose the abundant credit he deserves.