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Mousa Dembele

billyiddo said:
'an attacking sense' isn't only referring to goals scored - it's chances created and style as well (imv). regarding the latter two i think you'll be hard pushed to find anyone who thinks we're playing as well as last season in that sense.

we are effective, that's for sure and im happy with how the season has panned out - all im saying is, once we replace Modric and/or VdV (which i believe we will do, based on the fact we have been in for Mouthino and later on Willian) then i think we will move on from being purely effective (to a certain level) but we will start to look better, create more chances and score more goals
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Maybe. If you create 20 chances and score none of them, then what was the point? There wasn't one. After all, points win prizes.. 8-[

Unless you're Liverpool with their 'winning the possession'.


As for Modric/VdV being replaced i think we've already done that. I reckon if we had a top Striker or two we'd be a perfectly fine first eleven. Add some depth and we could be challenging for the title.

of course clinicality is the most important asset for that striker.
 
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Maybe. If you create 20 chances and score none of them, then what was the point?
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but if we're currently creating 8 chances and scoring 2 - or whatever you consider a great ratio (seeings as you're championing our effectiveness) then surely it'd make sense to be looking to create more rather than to be looking to improve the finishing (which by way of being effective with fewer chances would suggest that you see as quite strong)

who do you think we have that has replaced the creativity of VdV and Modric - seeings as our creativity stats are some way behind last season?
 
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billyiddo said:
but if we're currently creating 8 chances and scoring 2 - or whatever you consider a great ratio (seeings as you're championing our effectiveness) then surely it'd make sense to be looking to create more rather than to be looking to improve the finishing (which by way of being effective with fewer chances would suggest that you see as quite strong)

who do you think we have that has replaced the creativity of VdV and Modric - seeings as our creativity stats are some way behind last season?
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I don't think a single player has replaced them. I think the system has.


It would make more sense to increase the number of chances created yes. However it would be far easier to improve the finishing. The finishing across our squad must be half decent to cope with the few chances we create. However the most wasteful position by a mile is the striker.

I think it would be a far easier proposition to improve one position than it would to buy a player type we are not currently playing and change the system we are using to accommodate them.
 
why not buy a striker AND a creative midfielder? ;)


more chances created + better strike conversion = :eek:
 
billyiddo said:
why not buy a striker AND a creative midfielder? ;)

probably win the league then :lol:
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Perhaps.

I might just be tired of relying so much on one player. We sign that creative midfielder everyone is after, fit him into the team, he does well, controls the team and then he breaks his leg, or a bigger team comes in and buys him off us.

The one player we have built our team around is fudged. So the team is pretty much fudged.



Good discussion though :p
 
Spursalot said:
Perhaps.

I might just be tired of relying so much on one player. We sign that creative midfielder everyone is after, fit him into the team, he does well, controls the team and then he breaks his leg, or a bigger team comes in and buys him off us.

The one player we have built our team around is fudged. So the team is pretty much fudged.



Good discussion though :p
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wouldn't there be similar arguments to be made by that logic against signing ourselves a key forward?
by your own admission you think we are creating and scoring enough to get by without a play maker type - so if we were to bring one in we wouldn't really be relying on them as such - they'd just help the team to a higher performance level (imv) and hopefully more goals laid on for Bale and whoever we bring in up top.

with Lloris, Vertonghen, Sandro and Bale already in the side - a play maker and a 20+ goal a season striker added to that would hopefully see the end to any labels of one man team next season.

aye, good discussion - was planning on an early night as well ](*,)

:lol:
 
billyiddo said:
wouldn't there be similar arguments to be made by that logic against signing ourselves a key forward?
by your own admission you think we are creating and scoring enough to get by without a play maker type - so if we were to bring one in we wouldn't really be relying on them as such - they'd just help the team to a higher performance level (imv) and hopefully more goals laid on for Bale and whoever we bring in up top.

with Lloris, Vertonghen, Sandro and Bale already in the side - a play maker and a 20+ goal a season striker added to that would hopefully see the end to any labels of one man team next season.

aye, good discussion - was planning on an early night as well ](*,)

:lol:
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True, but it wouldn't have to be a key forward, would just have to be better than Ade has been this season :p


By my own admission we are, but the system would have to be altered. Though that will be something AVB will have to concern himself with.

I'm gonna hit the hay though.
 
billyiddo said:
no totals on that one Steve :(
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I got tired of typing in all the figures so (randomly) decided to cut off at the top 15 players! However I've now edited the post with these updated figures:

2012/13: ...Caulker 7; Townsend 5; Livermore 5; VdV 2; Carroll 1, Kaboul 1 - making a grand total of 435 Key Passes
2011/12: ...Huddlestone 3; Crouch 2; Bassong, Dawson, GDS, Lancaster, Rose, Gallas and Friedel 1 each; for a grand total of 534 Key Passes

Adebayor has only had a shot on goal every 41 minutes this season, compared to every 28 last, which I think can be largely attributed to our team' inability to create chances in the box for him to feed off, since our 2 best passers left in the summer. As he is not the most natural/confident finisher he tends to snatch at those rare chances he does get which has lead to his shot conversion rate plummeting from 17% last season to 7% this campaign.

Defoe has been shooting more frequently this season, every 21 minutes compared to every 33 last season, but this has mostly been due to him trying to shoot from range and (as he isn't quite on Bale' level when it comes to long shots) his conversion rate has also dropped from 16.7% to 10.4%.

I think that a top notch passer would've made more difference to the team than a finisher as he could've got the best out of our (limited) strikers, especially in those home games where opponents have parked the bus and we've had to rely upon long range shots, plus with better use of the ball our defence would be put under less pressure. Although upgrades on Ade and Defoe too would be nice if there is enough cash in the kitty.
 
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Spursalot said:
Perhaps.

I might just be tired of relying so much on one player. We sign that creative midfielder everyone is after, fit him into the team, he does well, controls the team and then he breaks his leg, or a bigger team comes in and buys him off us.

The one player we have built our team around is fudged. So the team is pretty much fudged.



Good discussion though :p
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When that happens you then bring the backup in. So for example:

Sandro/Holtby
Moutinho/Carroll --- Dembele/Sigurdsson
Lennon/someone---Benteke/Michu --- Bale/Townsend

So a quality backup in every position and you rotate all the players so they all stay fresh. That is essentially what SAF does. I think with those players players, perhaps Nani as the 'someone', we could challenge for the league next season.
 
Old Bill said:
I am not blaming just Dembele. But this is a Dembele thread and to me those stats demonstrate that Dembele isn't doing enough creatively for a man of his talent.

And I don't agree with you that our strikers are poor. They got us to 4th last year and Defoe has been at the club during our most successful era for a loooooong time.
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Bentley and Jenas were also at the club during the same era - that means very little in persepctive.

If you don't think our strikers are poor (this season in particular) - I think there is very little we can debate forward from here on. With respect and so long.
 
billyiddo said:
something i have found very frustrating - i was expecting/hoping to see Parker slot back in to the team and play how he did in the first half of last season (when he was a vital cog in our team) but sadly he is playing more like he was towards the end of the season when he tried to take control further up the field
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This is the problem, and i have no idea why AVB didn't give out any instruction about that. It seems Parker just drive forward whenever he likes and at the same time he left Dembele behind him most of the time.
 
I reckon he could be our Yaya.

He can easily beat players with his ability on the ball and strength like Toure but he doesn't force himself in the box enough like Toure. I do think that's more to the way he's managed though. I think you put Sandro next to him and then a creative midfielder in a 3 midfield, I'd love to see him attack more.
 
ArcspacE said:
Bentley and Jenas were also at the club during the same era - that means very little in persepctive.

If you don't think our strikers are poor (this season in particular) - I think there is very little we can debate forward from here on. With respect and so long.
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But they weren't regulars?
 
Mumorn said:
I reckon he could be our Yaya.

He can easily beat players with his ability on the ball and strength like Toure but he doesn't force himself in the box enough like Toure. I do think that's more to the way he's managed though. I think you put Sandro next to him and then a creative midfielder in a 3 midfield, I'd love to see him attack more.
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I like Dembele, but he isn't in the same class as Yaya!
 
SteveAWOL said:
I got tired of typing in all the figures so (randomly) decided to cut off at the top 15 players! However I've now edited the post with these updated figures:

2012/13: ...Caulker 7; Townsend 5; Livermore 5; VdV 2; Carroll 1, Kaboul 1 - making a grand total of 435 Key Passes
2011/12: ...Huddlestone 3; Crouch 2; Bassong, Dawson, GDS, Lancaster, Rose, Gallas and Friedel 1 each; for a grand total of 534 Key Passes

Adebayor has only had a shot on goal every 41 minutes this season, compared to every 28 last, which I think can be largely attributed to our team' inability to create chances in the box for him to feed off, since our 2 best passers left in the summer. As he is not the most natural/confident finisher he tends to snatch at those rare chances he does get which has lead to his shot conversion rate plummeting from 17% last season to 7% this campaign.

Defoe has been shooting more frequently this season, every 21 minutes compared to every 33 last season, but this has mostly been due to him trying to shoot from range and (as he isn't quite on Bale' level when it comes to long shots) his conversion rate has also dropped from 16.7% to 10.4%.

I think that a top notch passer would've made more difference to the team than a finisher as he could've got the best out of our (limited) strikers, especially in those home games where opponents have parked the bus and we've had to rely upon long range shots, plus with better use of the ball our defence would be put under less pressure. Although upgrades on Ade and Defoe too would be nice if there is enough cash in the kitty.
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This idea makes little sense to me. Mostly because last season we had Modric and Vdv and we still struggled against teams that parked the bus. Is this mysterious 'top notch passer' going to have more creativity than both of them combined?


A clinical striker means that you no longer need to create as many chances against the 'park the bus' teams. As soon as the first goes in, they have to come out and play and the gaps open up.
 
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