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Mousa Dembele

I know it's not our usual form, but perhaps we just need to go out and spend for a CM: we did it when we needed to for Davinson and that's turning our very well. I know - January is impossible etc, but it feels like now is the time to make a move.
 
glasgowspur said:
I agree that he has never hit the heights that his talent should have, but I also think he is irreplaceable in as much as I've never seen anyone with his skill set.
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I dont disagree that his skill set is unique. And in full flow he really can be a joy to watch.

But... Do we even need his skill set? What is it exactly?

He is not explicitly defensive enough to be a DM, but doesnt offer enough going forward to be an AM, so in the end is a player that often unbalances things IMO.

Strong as an ox, insanely good dribbler, damn near impossible to get the ball off of and pretty solid defensively.

And yet - doesnt do much for us going forward, lacks incision, holds the ball to long, lacks vision really, and doesnt offer goals/assists.

He is a very odd player. As much as I enjoy so much about him, he has always been kind of frustrating too.

I do wonder if we will be better off for letting him go, to be honest.

Put it this way, when a player is that unique, and impossible to replace as you say, then naturally there is no consistency in the team between when he does/doesnt play. Things change substantially, and his appearance record isnt reliable enough to build a team to suit him - nor does he offer enough to justify that IMHO.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I dont disagree that his skill set is unique. And in full flow he really can be a joy to watch.

But... Do we even need his skill set? What is it exactly?

He is not explicitly defensive enough to be a DM, but doesnt offer enough going forward to be an AM, so in the end is a player that often unbalances things IMO.

Strong as an ox, insanely good dribbler, damn near impossible to get the ball off of and pretty solid defensively.

And yet - doesnt do much for us going forward, lacks incision, holds the ball to long, lacks vision really, and doesnt offer goals/assists.

He is a very odd player. As much as I enjoy so much about him, he has always been kind of frustrating too.

I do wonder if we will be better off for letting him go, to be honest.

Put it this way, when a player is that unique, and impossible to replace as you say, then naturally there is no consistency in the team between when he does/doesnt play. Things change substantially, and his appearance record isnt reliable enough to build a team to suit him - nor does he offer enough to justify that IMHO.
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As I said a few years ago when there was talk of leaving I'd be ambivalent about it, he's great to watch but rather ineffective.
All the talent you could wish for, no drive.
 
glasgowspur said:
As I said a few years ago when there was talk of leaving I'd be ambivalent about it, he's great to watch but rather ineffective.
All the talent you could wish for, no drive.
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He is the player of no position!

Came into Fulham as a forward, got moved from Cf to WF to the wings to CM - clearly so talented but even then they didnt know where to play him.

He has settled into CM, but hasnt pushed on his game since doing so IMO.

Ambivalence is about right for me, as much as I like him I dont think we will miss him.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I dont disagree that his skill set is unique. And in full flow he really can be a joy to watch.

But... Do we even need his skill set? What is it exactly?

He is not explicitly defensive enough to be a DM, but doesnt offer enough going forward to be an AM, so in the end is a player that often unbalances things IMO.

Strong as an ox, insanely good dribbler, damn near impossible to get the ball off of and pretty solid defensively.

And yet - doesnt do much for us going forward, lacks incision, holds the ball to long, lacks vision really, and doesnt offer goals/assists.

He is a very odd player. As much as I enjoy so much about him, he has always been kind of frustrating too.

I do wonder if we will be better off for letting him go, to be honest.

Put it this way, when a player is that unique, and impossible to replace as you say, then naturally there is no consistency in the team between when he does/doesnt play. Things change substantially, and his appearance record isnt reliable enough to build a team to suit him - nor does he offer enough to justify that IMHO.
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I think the best way to describe him as someone who looks after the ball, which is why in the big games he really came to the fore and helped us get hold of the midfield which is where those games are contested. Until very recently there was no one I’d rather have had on the ball with a minute
To go if you were one up in a cup final!

In terms of replacement Id like to have a pool of 4, 2 creative types so Winks and someone new (perhaps Skipp in future) and two defensive types which at present would be Wanyama and Dier. With Wanyama looking shot too maybe a strong box to box who keeps it simple will tide us over until the summer.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
I dont disagree that his skill set is unique. And in full flow he really can be a joy to watch.

But... Do we even need his skill set? What is it exactly?

He is not explicitly defensive enough to be a DM, but doesnt offer enough going forward to be an AM, so in the end is a player that often unbalances things IMO.

Strong as an ox, insanely good dribbler, damn near impossible to get the ball off of and pretty solid defensively.

And yet - doesnt do much for us going forward, lacks incision, holds the ball to long, lacks vision really, and doesnt offer goals/assists.

He is a very odd player. As much as I enjoy so much about him, he has always been kind of frustrating too.

I do wonder if we will be better off for letting him go, to be honest.

Put it this way, when a player is that unique, and impossible to replace as you say, then naturally there is no consistency in the team between when he does/doesnt play. Things change substantially, and his appearance record isnt reliable enough to build a team to suit him - nor does he offer enough to justify that IMHO.
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Excellant post and sums it up perfectly.
 
Hopefully nothing too serious, international break shortly which should help him recover.

Wanyana is a bigger worry as said elsewhere in the thread, he's been awful last season and this one so far and looks so slow. To be fair he hasn't really had a run of games so not sure if he's just nursing an injury or if he's actually lost it.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
But... Do we even need his skill set? What is it exactly?
Click to expand...
Breaking lines, he's one of the only players we have who can do it reliably.

Watch the rest of the team when Dembele has the ball at his feet and faces up his opponent. They all gamble that he will get the other side of the defensive line and make their forward runs. That's a very valuable skill. It can obviously be done with passing, but then you have an extra man the wrong side of the line. Being able to beat a defender with the ball (note, not with pace as there isn't the space in these scenarios) almost 100% of the time is an incredible valuable skill.
 
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scaramanga said:
Breaking lines, he's one of the only players we have who can do it reliably.

Watch the rest of the team when Dembele has the ball at his feet and faces up his opponent. They all gamble that he we get the other side of the defensive line and make their forward runs. That's a very valuable skill. It can obviously be done with passing, but then you have an extra man the wrong side of the line. Being able to beat a defender with the ball (note, not with pace as there isn't the space in these scenarios) almost 400% of the time is an incredible valuable skill.
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Indeed; i also wonder if there's be even more 'gambling runs' into space if MD had the ability to lift his head up more and release the ball to a man in space much quicker...this hogging of the ball and then going backwards or not being able to pass forwards as the player that was free is now marked is soooooo fustrating...
 
scaramanga said:
Breaking lines, he's one of the only players we have who can do it reliably.

Watch the rest of the team when Dembele has the ball at his feet and faces up his opponent. They all gamble that he will get the other side of the defensive line and make their forward runs. That's a very valuable skill. It can obviously be done with passing, but then you have an extra man the wrong side of the line. Being able to beat a defender with the ball (note, not with pace as there isn't the space in these scenarios) almost 400% of the time is an incredible valuable skill.
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Ad glorygloryeze says, what good is that without the release and forward momentum being continued?
 
Issue we have, is we dont know where Poch was aiming to go with the team due to Dembele and Wanyama injuries
5-2-3-1 - Where our FBs dont see suited and we are lacking another CB probably
4-1-2-3-1 Where Wanyama would have been and maybe winks and dele infront (hence dele playing deeper last year)
4-2-3-1 where we have a dier and a winks and Dier can drop to make a 5 (like a few years back)

Or a 4-3-3, but our squad is completely unbalanced for that, but we have been forced into that recently, but i prefer us in a 4-2-3-1

Hopefully

Dembele out in Jan - Ndombele would be great to get in
Nkoudou out - No Replacement
Vorm out - English Replacement in or Youth to get foreign numbers down

Summer

Davies out - Again for foreign numbers, Sessengnon in if we think he is a LB with KWP also available
Wanyama out - Lewis cook in
Llorente out - Martial type in
Jansen sold for parts per KG
Toby out - New CB in

Pretty big squad overhaul quicker than wanted, but due to age and contract situation i dont think we have much choice
 
imcallingbullsh*t said:
Issue we have, is we dont know where Poch was aiming to go with the team due to Dembele and Wanyama injuries
5-2-3-1 - Where our FBs dont see suited and we are lacking another CB probably
4-1-2-3-1 Where Wanyama would have been and maybe winks and dele infront (hence dele playing deeper last year)
4-2-3-1 where we have a dier and a winks and Dier can drop to make a 5 (like a few years back)

Or a 4-3-3, but our squad is completely unbalanced for that, but we have been forced into that recently, but i prefer us in a 4-2-3-1

Hopefully

Dembele out in Jan - Ndombele would be great to get in
Nkoudou out - No Replacement
Vorm out - English Replacement in or Youth to get foreign numbers down

Summer

Davies out - Again for foreign numbers, Sessengnon in if we think he is a LB with KWP also available
Wanyama out - Lewis cook in
Llorente out - Martial type in
Jansen sold for parts per KG
Toby out - New CB in

Pretty big squad overhaul quicker than wanted, but due to age and contract situation i dont think we have much choice
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Isn't it precisely the opposite? Our full backs tend to excel at wingbackery.
 
nayimfromthehalfwayline said:
Ad glorygloryeze says, what good is that without the release and forward momentum being continued?
Click to expand...
It's not about momentum - that's a different way of getting past an opponent, based on one touch passing and pacy players. Also a useful tactic, but requires space and is less easily used by a team that goes into most matches as clear favourite.

This is about vertical penetration (fnar) through an organised and settled defence. You can pass through that, but if the defence is properly organised and tracks runs properly, then they will always be between us and the ball. If a player can do what Dembele does and get past a line in possession, then they need to move out of shape to stay goalside of all our players.
 
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