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Michael Dawson

Re: Dawson

Robspur12 said:
No argument from me that Dawson makes a mistake although that is us having the benefit of hindsight, what is happening in real time doesn't necessarily give the defender time to think ahead. My point was 3 people make mistakes that lead to the goal but Dawson is, as usual, taking the brunt.
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For me at least Vertonghen loses the duel, and as often happens directly after loses his orientation and doesn't immediately pick up a man. This has to be expected and planned for. We can't just lose one duel after a goal kick and be in trouble.

All Dawson and Rose have to do is to contain play for a second or two and Vertonghen will be back and we'll be fine. I think Rose could be closer to Jelavic. Dawson makes the big error by stepping out from his position to close down a player with his back to goal that his full back can close down.

I take it you haven't spent much time in the Chiriches and Rose discussions if you think Dawson is the one always being blamed?
 
Re: Dawson

Robspur12 said:
You're right Dawson pushes forward which leaves a gap behind. But you are expecting him to read the game and letting everyone else off the hook when IMO they are all equally to blame for the goal. I have a feeling if Dawson was verts he would still be getting the rough end of the stick because that's how it normally plays out on this board.
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Here's the thing though mate, I have made consistent observations about this element of Daws play this season and consistently ear-marked it as a major scare point for me. Walker spends a lot of time covering for Daws. In the second-half Walker came inside to cover Daws who was caught and fortunately -having learnt from the gooner cup goal- Daws immediately ran back towards goal to cut out danger there and left Waker in the foot-race centrally, which meant he was able to clear the ball off the line)…

Sadly yes, I do expect him as our skipper, consistent member of defence and consistent CB, to read the game better AND know his own limitations. He cannot afford to go where he goes half the time, as he constantly leaves himself relying on a covering full-back. Verts gets done, I've already criticised Rose and the only blame you might attach to Walker there is that he doesn't cover quite quickly enough, but given where he actually is on the pitch (where he should be I might add!) he couldn't have done much more.

EDIT: just saw your comment re: Walker, agreed as you doubtless know by now ;)

It's sad with Daws because he worked so hard to adapt to AVB's high-line game at the start of last season, yet this season, something is different and he really looks to have lost half a yard…half a yard he couldn't afford to lose I might add.
 
Re: Dawson

thfcsteff said:
I believe this is because every opposition manager knows that if possession is forced upon Daws, this is the inevitable outcome. I genuinely believe it is a tactic, to force him to be our outlet.
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Agreed. Only Walker has attempted more passes in the league for us this season and neither are exactly known for their defence splitting passes... oh for the days of King and Corluka.
 
Re: Dawson

Robspur12 said:
Good discussion mate. The thing is all of the back 4 (and Lloris) have at some point this season been poor which rather suggests a systemic problem with the way we are defending. These are good defenders and a world class goalkeeper we are talking about. Personally the way we have been playing under Tim makes me think defending is not his number 1 priority. He has an attacking coach - not sure who is coaching defending.
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They were doing pretty well until Liverpool. IIRC there were only 1 or 2 teams had conceded fewer than us. And that's including the skewing nature of the City result too.
 
Re: Dawson

thfcsteff said:
I believe this is because every opposition manager knows that if possession is forced upon Daws, this is the inevitable outcome. I genuinely believe it is a tactic, to force him to be our outlet.
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So you've not noticed how often Vertonghen passes (the buck) to him rather than risk an out-ball himself?
 
Re: Dawson

Spur of the moment said:
So you've not noticed how often Vertonghen passes (the buck) to him rather than risk an out-ball himself?
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No, can't say I have. I think his passing has actually been largely very good. Of course, if this is happening with the frequency you suggest, I'd counter that it is precisely what I'm getting at, that teams won't let a player of Verts ability have time on the ball, and thus pressure him to release quickly. Verts has also spent much of the season playing at left-back.
 
Re: Dawson

thfcsteff said:
No, can't say I have. I think his passing has actually been largely very good. Of course, if this is happening with the frequency you suggest, I'd counter that it is precisely what I'm getting at, that teams won't let a player of Verts ability have time on the ball, and thus pressure him to release quickly. Verts has also spent much of the season playing at left-back.
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Excellent theory except imo that's not usually the way it is at all. He often does it when under no particular pressure. I drew attention to this several times earlier in the season when peeps were complaining about Dawson's 'hoofing.' It 's frustrating because Jan is that much more talented than Daws, you'd expect him to attempt the intelligent out-ball more often. But he seldom does.
 
Re: Dawson

From memory so far this season Jan tends to try to dribble it out from the back, or at least pass it out and run forward. That though was under AVB, where out centre halves were expected to play a an important part in starting moves.
 
Re: Dawson

I still remember when I thought our side had the champ de to be defensively excellent. Early in the season, we maintained possession well, kept a good shape and our team seemed solid, horrifying just how quickly it all fell apart :(
 
Re: Dawson

Spur of the moment said:
Excellent theory except imo that's not usually the way it is at all. He often does it when under no particular pressure. I drew attention to this several times earlier in the season when peeps were complaining about Dawson's 'hoofing.' It 's frustrating because Jan is that much more talented than Daws, you'd expect him to attempt the intelligent out-ball more often. But he seldom does.
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OK. I won't argue with what you see. I see, in Verts, a player who always looks to play a pass or carry the ball until an option becomes available. He looks for movement. I will disagree with your assertion that he 'seldom' attempts an 'intelligent' out-ball though mate. For me, a 3-5 yard pass to a team mate,especially one who's dropped in from midfield, is the way to go if all the Hollywood passes are done. I've noticed that the opposition are really not too bothered about closing Daws down when he's on the ball at the back more than they want to make sure the options around him are less/tight/tied up. That's what I see anyway...
 
Re: Dawson

The close Dawson down, but normally he hits the long ball the moment he is closed down. Running it out from the back has just not ever been part of his game. So if we are looking to play like that then he has to learn or we replace him. Sad to say it in all honesty but that's the way the game is progressing. He has on occasion shown the ability, like the pass for Walker in the Swansea gane, but at the back when under pressure with few options he struggles. People can talk about Terry struggling with the high line but he has always been happy moving into midfield with the ball and playing good passes forward.
 
Re: Dawson

thfcsteff said:
OK. I won't argue with what you see. I see, in Verts, a player who always looks to play a pass or carry the ball until an option becomes available. He looks for movement. I will disagree with your assertion that he 'seldom' attempts an 'intelligent' out-ball though mate. For me, a 3-5 yard pass to a team mate,especially one who's dropped in from midfield, is the way to go if all the Hollywood passes are done. I've noticed that the opposition are really not too bothered about closing Daws down when he's on the ball at the back more than they want to make sure the options around him are less/tight/tied up. That's what I see anyway...
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Well if you want to describe a 3-5 yard pass as an outball, then fine, no problem, but that wasn't the kind of ball I was talking about. By 'intelligent outball' I was thinking of the long, forward pass - thirty, forty, maybe even fifty yards, that clears the play out of defence and attempts to pick out an attacking player or put him into space.

Just for the fun of it (keeps me out of mischief) I did a very rough and ready check of the first ten games of the season on the Passing Chalkboards thread and found that Dawson appeared to attempt around 70-80 such passes to Vertonghen's 10-15. But I'll be honest, what really surprised me was that Dawson's success rate (around 40%) appeared to be significantly better than Jan's (around 25%), so maybe therein lies a clue as to why he prefers to 'pass the buck' to Dawson. :lol:
 
Re: Dawson

Rossi22 said:
The Dawson diagonal is the bane of my life.
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For sure it can be a pain but I recommend you try and view it differently, if only for your own sanity! For a start it's 100% better than the interminable passing across the back we saw under AVB that often ended up back to the goalie, or even worse, yielding possession in a dangerous area and setting up an opposition attack.

Secondly although a high percentage of his long balls do go astray, a fair few still come back to us when the defender heads clear or out of play, thus allowing us to start an attack high up the pitch. I'm no lover of the long ball per se, I'd much rather we passed the ball quickly and accurately out of defence, but at least Dawson mostly aims to find one of our attacking players, they are not just punts upfield as they are usually portrayed. And when they do find their man, they're often every bit as effective as anything Glenn managed even if they lack all of his sublime style and grace.
 
Re: Dawson

Spur of the moment said:
Well if you want to describe a 3-5 yard pass as an outball, then fine, no problem, but that wasn't the kind of ball I was talking about. By 'intelligent outball' I was thinking of the long, forward pass - thirty, forty, maybe even fifty yards, that clears the play out of defence and attempts to pick out an attacking player or put him into space.

Just for the fun of it (keeps me out of mischief) I did a very rough and ready check of the first ten games of the season on the Passing Chalkboards thread and found that Dawson appeared to attempt around 70-80 such passes to Vertonghen's 10-15. But I'll be honest, what really surprised me was that Dawson's success rate (around 40%) appeared to be significantly better than Jan's (around 25%), so maybe therein lies a clue as to why he prefers to 'pass the buck' to Dawson. :lol:
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Then we are talking about very different things and no wonder we have crossed lines. That, to me, is hoofing it for a fast-runner. It has it's place but it isn't football I want to watch too often. As for your stat, again, for me, the opposition have identified both Daws and our left-hand side as weak areas and will always try to pressure them. I would wager that we concede far more goals in the space between CB and full-back than any other team in the top 7. TBH, if you prefer Daws in CD to Verts then it's down to choice. I just wish Daws would play within his comfort zone or that we would stop trying to push him so high. It's not good for anyone. I have seen further down here that you mentioned it was better than slow, square passing which simply keeps possession. Given the choice of hoofing it for a 50/50, I'd rather keep possession every time. Funny thing is, last season I felt Daws really did adapt and grow his game to accommodate shorter passing under AVB; a lot of his problems have been exacerbated since AVB went.
 
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