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Mauricio Pochettino - Sacked

Central midfield is the biggest challenge for Poch. He needs to discern 2 players from 4 who are similar ability, promising players. Since Modric-Parker-Sandro we've not settled on a steady midfield. It has been our Achilles Heel imo and was key to AVBs demise.

I suspect there was more than one "key" to AVB's demise! But if Poch can get Bentaleb to play as he did last season, when he had something to prove, we should be fine. Bentaleb was a revelation last season, we need that kind of play this season.
 
Raziel said:
Mate, his system constantly leaves his FB's & CB's exposed, that isn't even a debate.

Poch plays a high line with inverted wingers which compresses the middle, with support from the FB's over committing to provide attacking and width (in a system that has very little). In that system a large percentage of the time, turnover leads to a hoof ball to a runner that leaves our FB/CB 1:1 with attacking players.

Go watch the game again, and the Stoke game, watch how many players get around Kane any time he has the ball, yet goal scorers in the Stoke game and Leicester game somehow end up 1:1 with a CB?

But lets fool ourselves and say a defender exposed 1:1 against a PL attacker is the one at fault every time.
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We're going to have to agree to disagree. The goal we conceded yesterday was more to do with Chadli and others not being switched on rather than Poch tactically saying "Come on Leicester, have a go if you want".

This is the same Poch who had a pretty damned good defensive record at Southampton.

Instead let's fool ourselves and say that a manager who has not only played the game at the highest level as a defender, and that has a good record as a manager, is defensively and tactically naive.
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
We're going to have to agree to disagree. The goal we conceded yesterday was more to do with Chadli and others not being switched on rather than Poch tactically saying "Come on Leicester, have a go if you want".

This is the same Poch who had a pretty damned good defensive record at Southampton.

Instead let's fool ourselves and say that a manager who has not only played the game at the highest level as a defender, and that has a good record as a manager, is defensively and tactically naive.
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Mate, I think Poch is like AVB, his system overrides everything else, and its his fatal flaw.

The Manchester United goal as example was created by our system, I say this because I saw the exact drill in preseason, Keeper -> CB/FB -> CM -> back to FB who at this point has crossed the half line. In the case of the goal, one of those passes goes astray and the entire team is already to far up the pitch, BOTH FB's overcommitted and attacker gets a 1:1 (See the whole discussion here post that game where people were basically trying to blame Walker by saying he should know the system exposes us and he should have sat back).

At Southampton Poch had two players with more defensive ability, right now we have none (unless you count a CB playing DM). Personally just as Dier hasn't stopped the goals, I don't think any DM is going to help us in this current system.

Again, why can Stoke and Leicester seem to get 3 or 4 players around Kane and/or Eriksen regularly, yet amazingly Toby/Jan/Walker/Davies are almost always 1:1 or at best 2:1
 
Raziel said:
Mate, I think Poch is like AVB, his system overrides everything else, and its his fatal flaw.

The Manchester United goal as example was created by our system, I say this because I saw the exact drill in preseason, Keeper -> CB/FB -> CM -> back to FB who at this point has crossed the half line. In the case of the goal, one of those passes goes astray and the entire team is already to far up the pitch, BOTH FB's overcommitted and attacker gets a 1:1 (See the whole discussion here post that game where people were basically trying to blame Walker by saying he should know the system exposes us and he should have sat back).

At Southampton Poch had two players with more defensive ability, right now we have none (unless you count a CB playing DM). Personally just as Dier hasn't stopped the goals, I don't think any DM is going to help us in this current system.

Again, why can Stoke and Leicester seem to get 3 or 4 players around Kane and/or Eriksen regularly, yet amazingly Toby/Jan/Walker/Davies are almost always 1:1 or at best 2:1
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Using the Man United goal, the system did not say Bentaleb pass it to a Man United player in your own half! Our system is geared towards making the opposition make mistakes and lose possession in their half because it is dangerous. If you want us to play football with a number of men behind the ball even when in possession, then I think you and I have very different ideas as to what type of football we would aspire to have our team play.

Poch has a way that he would like the team set up. Mourinho has his way. Pellegrini has his way. Each manager has their own identity. At Southampton, Poch played with two players with more defensive ability. So he's obviously not as rigid in terms of player selection or tactics as you would believe.
 
Are people calling for poch to be sacked? And is it the results that people are using to attack our tram?

Or, for me anyway, and others from how it looks to me, are we critisi g the style of play, the decisions poch is making etc?

I wish poch was more brave, people needing to understand his system and earn their place. fudge off! Njie should've been on the bench. Pritchard just played 90 mins for u21's so im sure he could've played 30 yesterday, and alli, yes he's young, but far better in attack than anyone else so throw him in. He's so so so safe. And boring. And it clearly doesn't work.
 
Gazzasrightboot said:
Using the Man United goal, the system did not say Bentaleb pass it to a Man United player in your own half! Our system is geared towards making the opposition make mistakes and lose possession in their half because it is dangerous. If you want us to play football with a number of men behind the ball even when in possession, then I think you and I have very different ideas as to what type of football we would aspire to have our team play.

Poch has a way that he would like the team set up. Mourinho has his way. Pellegrini has his way. Each manager has their own identity. At Southampton, Poch played with two players with more defensive ability. So he's obviously not as rigid in terms of player selection or tactics as you would believe.
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No .. but that is my point, the system is built around a high risk (without the equivalent reward) play, hence individual mistakes get punished harshly because the SYSTEM can't compensate for the inevitable.

My view is if we concentrated less on putting 5/6 players in the same fudging space in the 2nd third of pitch, we could be both more effective offensively (by having less congestion) and defensively (by not requiring such a suicidal line)

Yes, all managers have a style/identity, right now my argument is Poch's neither is working, nor seems to make sense.

And no, I'm not asking for him to get sacked, but he needs to make some changes ... soon ...
 
Raziel said:
No .. but that is my point, the system is built around a high risk (without the equivalent reward) play, hence individual mistakes get punished harshly because the SYSTEM can't compensate for the inevitable.

My view is if we concentrated less on putting 5/6 players in the same fudgeing space in the 2nd third of pitch, we could be both more effective offensively (by having less congestion) and defensively (by not requiring such a suicidal line)

Yes, all managers have a style/identity, right now my argument is Poch's neither is working, nor seems to make sense.

And no, I'm not asking for him to get sacked, but he needs to make some changes ... soon ...
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I'm sorry I just don't agree. If you are in posession of the ball the players around need to be providing options for an outlet, and not be behind the ball. That leads to ponderous posession! Bentaleb should not be making the mistake. It's not a fault of the system. In any system, if an individual makes a mistake by giving away posession in your own half, it will inevitably go punished. The reason why teams are adopting "the press" is because it has been shown that if you force the other team to give you posession in their own half, you will more than likely score.

Poch's system is not working based on 3 games of the season. Last season it worked.
 
GrimsbyYid said:
Are people calling for poch to be sacked? And is it the results that people are using to attack our tram?

Or, for me anyway, and others from how it looks to me, are we critisi g the style of play, the decisions poch is making etc?

I wish poch was more brave, people needing to understand his system and earn their place. fudge off! Njie should've been on the bench. Pritchard just played 90 mins for u21's so im sure he could've played 30 yesterday, and alli, yes he's young, but far better in attack than anyone else so throw him in. He's so so so safe. And boring. And it clearly doesn't work.
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I'm not, are you ?
 
lurker of old said:
Central midfield is the biggest challenge for Poch. He needs to discern 2 players from 4 who are similar ability, promising players. Since Modric-Parker-Sandro we've not settled on a steady midfield. It has been our Achilles Heel imo and was key to AVBs demise.

I suspect there was more than one "key" to AVB's demise! But if Poch can get Bentaleb to play as he did last season, when he had something to prove, we should be fine. Bentaleb was a revelation last season, we need that kind of play this season.
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Agreed. But Bentaleb is not even in the starting 11! That says it all. Since Modric went we've had more Spurs midfielders than a gold digger in Faces. None have consistently distinguished themselves as 'first on the teamsheet' and we're still in flux. Sigi, Dembele, Holtby and then Capoue, Pauinho. Followed by our current crop of Bentaleb, Mason, Dier and Alli (who are an exciting prospect).
 
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Gazzasrightboot said:
I'm sorry I just don't agree. If you are in posession of the ball the players around need to be providing options for an outlet, and not be behind the ball. That leads to ponderous posession! Bentaleb should not be making the mistake. It's not a fault of the system. In any system, if an individual makes a mistake by giving away posession in your own half, it will inevitably go punished. The reason why teams are adopting "the press" is because it has been shown that if you force the other team to give you posession in their own half, you will more than likely score.

Poch's system is not working based on 3 games of the season. Last season it worked.
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Defensively it didn't ...
 
Raziel said:
Mate, I think Poch is like AVB, his system overrides everything else, and its his fatal flaw.

The Manchester United goal as example was created by our system, I say this because I saw the exact drill in preseason, Keeper -> CB/FB -> CM -> back to FB who at this point has crossed the half line. In the case of the goal, one of those passes goes astray and the entire team is already to far up the pitch, BOTH FB's overcommitted and attacker gets a 1:1 (See the whole discussion here post that game where people were basically trying to blame Walker by saying he should know the system exposes us and he should have sat back).

At Southampton Poch had two players with more defensive ability, right now we have none (unless you count a CB playing DM). Personally just as Dier hasn't stopped the goals, I don't think any DM is going to help us in this current system.

Again, why can Stoke and Leicester seem to get 3 or 4 players around Kane and/or Eriksen regularly, yet amazingly Toby/Jan/Walker/Davies are almost always 1:1 or at best 2:1
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Surely, this is dependent on whether you think that we have seen a finished product Poch side yet. I think that we need to consider that he has mainly had to make use of AVB's attacking players so far.
 
GrimsbyYid said:
No, that's my point, I don't think anyone is are they? People seem to be annoyed with people because they want poch sacked and I'm. To sure they do. People are confusing criticism with it I think.
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I hope you're right and it's just criticism due to our two points from nine, but I do get the impression from debate with Spurs mates and reading online, that there's many Spurs fans who are seeing Poch as just another AVB. My fear is that if the results don't improve, then we could soon be experiencing the same toxic atmosphere we saw last season at WHL and this will hinder the development of our young players.
 
wiziwig said:
I hope you're right and it's just criticism due to our two points from nine, but I do get the impression from debate with Spurs mates and reading online, that there's many Spurs fans who are seeing Poch as just another AVB. My fear is that if the results don't improve, then we could soon be experiencing the same toxic atmosphere we saw last season at WHL and this will hinder the development of our young players.
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Today it is .. but lets be clear, lose/draw another couple of games then get thumped by City at the end of Sept, he would be in a lot of trouble ..
 
Raziel said:
Today it is .. but lets be clear, lose/draw another couple of games then get thumped by City at the end of Sept, he would be in a lot of trouble ..
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Yes I'm agreeing with you , that's how it would probably go judging by our recent history . If the results didn't go well, then yes, I can see many us resorting to norm i.e calling for the manager's head and we go through all that who will be our next manager palaver again.
I just happen to think that the manager and the players will improve together if we show unity in our support during difficult times , it's what supporters do , right ?
 
wiziwig said:
Yes I'm agreeing with you , that's how it would probably go judging by our recent history . If the results didn't go well, then yes, I can see many us resorting to norm i.e calling for the manager's head and we go through all that who will be our next manager palaver again.
I just happen to think that the manager and the players will improve together if we show unity in our support during difficult times , it's what supporters do , right ?
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Exactly right.
 
For me the problem with AVB style football was that we really looked clueless with the ball and lacked any sort of penetration even against the teams that didn't camp out in their own half. Under Poch we have played much better football. The result against Leicester yesterday saw them defending with 11 men in the final 40 yards of the pitch at times, it's a big ask to expect us to break them down like we're Barca.
 
parklane1 said:
No its not, it is because there are players who are not tracking runners and allowing spare players to run in behind them.
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Which gets back to why is the team so fudging high up the pitch? why do we need to overload the center that much to attempt to be a threat?

Look at this image, the opposing team has possession, our last man is on the center circle, you really think you are going to be able to defend that against a long ball and runners?

wbtcsp.jpg
 
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